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Saturday, December 13, 2008

Oh, Bruce, Bruce, We Gotta Talk – Prop 8, Some More

In his December 11 Bay News Op-Ed [ www.tolosapress.com --click on The Bay News, go to page 7) to my previous Prop 8 column, Los Osos resident Bruce Curtis takes a stab at defending Prop 8 but – dang – still misses the mark.

He focuses primarily on the angry protests and pickets and angry letters and acts of vandalism done by anti-8 protesters after the election, which is certainly a valid point of discussion. Some of the No on 8ers’ actions against some of the churches that supported Prop 8 and their angry vandalism and threats were deplorable. Declaring them to be “terrorist” acts, however, ramps rhetoric past reality. Curtis notes, in his bulleted list of various alleged acts committed by protesters throughout the country, “At a Saddleback Church, angry hate-8 protestors wave swastikas at parishioners,” which called to mind something similar: “religious” protesters showing up at a gay soldier’s funeral carrying “God Hates Fags” signs. The young man was killed in Iraq, but no matter. Was that as distasteful and cruel and stupid as showing up at a church carrying swastikas? You betcha. But “terror?” Hardly.

Mr. Curtis also conflates being gay with “pederasty, polygamy and incest,” and being alcoholic, and or suffering from a “dysfunctional” “disease,” which, I suspect, is a truer indication of his real feelings, but coming right out and saying that would likely bring on charges that he’s an ignorant bigot. But that rhetorical conflation and slide into the ridiculous (“If we allow gay marriage, those people will want to marry their dog and they’ll then make it legal to start having sex with donkeys and the Republic will slide into the sea.”), is always a sure sign to me that the writer has simply stopped thinking.

Ditto to the oft-repeated phrase about “cramming [hot-button-issue-du jour] down our throats.” (Cramming down throats?? Oh, Sigmund Freud, where are you now that we need you?) That’s where we really do need to ask, “O.K. please explain EXACTLY how, for example, two gay people getting married somewhere in our state crams anything down your throat. Will that couple leave the ceremony and arrive at your house and barge in and say, Move aside, we’re gonna spend our honeymoon in your bedroom? Does that couple show up to have wedded-bliss sex on your front lawn? Whaaat?”

Unlikely. However, is it possible that what’s really behind Mr. Curtis’ fear of “cramming” is that, as a person who equates gay people with “disease,” perhaps what’s at work here is the fact that Mr. Curtis really doesn’t want gay folks to have any kind of “legitimate” public presence in “decent” society. Imagine, for example, the wedding page of your local paper. If gays can marry, will Mr. Curtis see smiling gay couples all gussied up for their wedding photos right next to straight people all gussied up for their wedding photos, right there in the local paper – ‘Smith-Jones Nuptials’, and there’s Tom Smith in his tux standing next to Fred Jones? And when that happens, does Mr. Curtis really fear having to ‘splain to his children (presuming he has any) what the word “nuptials” means and why both men and women and men and men and women and women are all gussied up and on this page?

Or does Mr. Curtis really fear having to go to a social gathering and be faced with Tom introducing himself and introducing Fred as “my spouse?” Or maybe Mr. Curtis really can’t abide the thought that on television there’s some celebrity being interviewed and right there in public the celebrity turns and says, “My [same sex] partner and I are getting married next week?” Or the very real fear that when he goes out in public, he’ll be forced to watch same-sex couples openly displaying acts of affection – kissing, holding hands, etc. – right there in public, in broad daylight, just like straight people do all the time, and when they go overboard, passersby usually roll their eyes and yell, “Get a motel!!”

Or having taught his children that “God Hates Gays,” his daughter comes home from school one day and says, “My teacher, Mr. McGuillicutty, is gay and he’s a really nice man. I like Mr. McGuillicutty. Daddy, can you tell me why God hates Mr. McGuillicutty?” And Mr. Curtis will have to roll his eyes and mutter under his breath, “Dang! If only those people had stayed in their diseased closets and out of our schools and businesses and public office and remained down in “that part of town” only to show up in police-blotter photos in the paper along with other criminals, I wouldn’t have to ‘splain all this to my kids. Dang! Dang! Dang!”

Or, worse yet, Mr. Curtis’ son comes home one day and says, “Dad, I’m gay.” Oh, GAWWWWDDDDD!

Well, if that’s the problem, I understand. I come from a generation where everything I mentioned above was applied to all things racial and interracial. Integration was something that was “being crammed down throats,” protesters were out in the street calling American citizens to account, and the rallying cry of most of the nation was, “If you allow them into our schools, next thing you know, they’ll want to marry your sister!” and the nation was shocked – SHOCKED! – when Harry Belefonte planted a peck on the cheek of a white singer (can’t remember now who she was) on TV and the show was blacked-out in the south for fear of it starting riots and lynchings and such like.

Same fear, same hatred, same bigotry, same struggle to achieve not only equal legal civil rights with white America, but legitimacy in the larger white public society. All of this is déjà vu, including the coded marker words, the false conflations, the slippery-slope imagery, and the same declarations that Mr. Curtis uses at the end of his piece: “The ‘tolerance’ crowd is now cramming their values down our throats, violently. But they won’t prevail because we believe in marriage and we outnumber Prop 8 opponents. We’ve defended marriage and we’ll vigorously defend Prop 8 in the courts, as is our right. . . . That democratic power is what people like Calhoun fear most.” (?? Like a lot of Mr. Curtis’ statements, that’s a howler.)

Segregation now, segregation forever!

Yep. Until the Supreme Court (and the National Guard) and a whole lot of incredibly brave people changed that world by reminding us of our founding principles – equal justice under law for all citizens.

And that’s the issue that Mr. Curtis doesn’t address. So, please Mr. Curtis, another Op/Ed piece and this time, please explain, as a supporter of Prop 8, EXACTLY what compelling (civil) state interests are served by forbidding and/or removing the right of gay people to “marry?”

37 comments:

Watershed Mark said...

When talking about segregation please don't forget the groundwork laid by:
Abraham Lincoln (February 12, 1809 – April 15, 1865) was the sixteenth President of the United States. He successfully led the country through its greatest internal crisis, the American Civil War, saving the Union and ending slavery, only to be assassinated as the war was virtually over. Before becoming the first Republican elected to the Presidency, Lincoln was a lawyer, an Illinois state legislator, a member of the United States House of Representatives, and twice an unsuccessful candidate for election to the Senate.
As an outspoken opponent of the expansion of slavery in the United States,[1][2] Lincoln won the Republican Party nomination in 1860 and was elected president later that year. During his time in office, he contributed to the effort to preserve the United States by leading the defeat of the secessionist Confederate States of America in the American Civil War. He introduced measures that resulted in the abolition of slavery, issuing his Emancipation Proclamation in 1863 and promoting the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which passed Congress before Lincoln's death and was ratified by the states later in 1865.
Lincoln closely supervised the victorious war effort, especially the selection of top generals, including Ulysses S. Grant. Historians have concluded that he handled the factions of the Republican Party well, bringing leaders of each faction into his cabinet and forcing them to cooperate. Lincoln successfully defused a war scare with the United Kingdom in 1861. Under his leadership, the Union took control of the border slave states at the start of the war. Additionally, he managed his own reelection in the 1864 presidential election.
Opponents of the war (also known as "Copperheads") criticized Lincoln for refusing to compromise on the slavery issue. Conversely, the Radical Republicans, an abolitionist faction of the Republican Party, criticized him for moving too slowly in abolishing slavery. Even with these road blocks, Lincoln successfully rallied public opinion through his rhetoric and speeches; his Gettysburg Address is but one example of this. At the close of the war, Lincoln held a moderate view of Reconstruction, seeking to speedily reunite the nation through a policy of generous reconciliation. His assassination in 1865 was the first presidential assassination in U.S. history and as a result Lincoln is seen as a martyr for the ideal of national unity.[citation needed] Lincoln has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the greatest U.S. Presidents.
Die when I may, I want it said by those who knew me best that I always plucked a thistle and planted a flower where I thought a flower would grow.
Marriage is neither heaven nor hell, it is simply purgatory. Let not him who is houseless pull down the house of another, but let him work diligently and build one for himself, thus by example assuring that his own shall be safe from violence when built.

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.
Abraham Lincoln

Watershed Mark said...

Public sentiment is everything. With public sentiment, nothing can fail. Without it, nothing can succeed.
Abraham Lincoln

Ron said...

Mr. Curtis wrote:

"we believe in marriage"

and:

"We’ve defended marriage"

Yeah... see, I think that's the bottom-line problem, here. I have no idea what those arguments mean. They don't seem to go far enough.

For example, if I didn't know better, just by looking at those two arguments, I'd say Mr. Curtis is an opponent of Prop 8.

"we believe in marriage"

Right. Exactly. Boom... common ground.

Mr. Curtis:

"... and we outnumber Prop 8 opponents."

Yeah... I guess? In that "no-means-yes," behavior based marketing, sort of way.

Ann wrote:

"Does that couple show up to have wedded-bliss sex on your front lawn? "

Terrorists!

alabamasue said...

One of many things Bruce Curtis got absolutely wrong _ "Bay area kindergartners are taken to a gay wedding with no notification, or permission from their parents" The wedding was between their teacher and another man. Parents were notified, and some refused permission for their children to attend. To suggest that any children in California can be taken on a field trip without parental permission is just ludicrous. Apparently Curtis is just cutting and pasting from some right wing, nut job site. Damn the facts - full speed ahead!

Watershed Mark said...

ABS:

Can you produce a copy of the permission slip?

Did it say "Gay Marriage" on it?

Seems the "many other things" Bruce has correct aren't worth mentioning...

Bev. De Witt-Moylan said...

"Those people...they're not really people." -THE BOY IN THE STRIPED PAJAMAS.

Churadogs said...

"those people" are never really people. Until, one day, they suddenly do become people, then people wonder what all the fuss was about. "We had separate drinking fountains for white people and black people? What was all THAT about?"

As for Mr. Curtis getting stuff wrong; he often does that, or, more interestingly, puts "facts" together to point in a certain direction or to a certain conclusion. For example, he notes as an example of "terror" the ridiculous blather of some blogger who said, "Burn their f-ing churches to the ground and then tax the charred timbers," as if this were a legitmate representative of "gay people's" beliefs, not some unknown wack job with no more credibility than the wack jobs who show up and funerals with "God Hates Fags" signs.

And to my knowledge, school children don't move off campus for field trips & etc without signed permission slips from parents -- insurance and lawsuit protections & etc. What's interesting is that Mr. Curtis refers to kids attending their teacher's wedding (with parental permission) as "indoctrination." If the same kids had attended a stright teacher's wedding (with parental permission slips), would Curtis refer to that as "indoctrination?" Or think that was a very sweet thing, "Awww, isn't that nice, the kids get to attend their favorite teacher's wedding, how cute."

He's also notorious for tossing in totally unsupported, demonstrably untrue statements like, "That gay militants have effectively silenced that democratic debate is worrisome."
HUH? Somebody -- let alone gay militants -- have EFFECTIVELY SILENCED this democratic debate? Really? You mean I'm muzzled? The commentors on this blog site are muzzled? The Tribune and the L.A. Times and the talk shows and the airwaves are SILENT on Prop 8 debate? The Bay News didn't print my column? Worse yet, the Bay News didn't print Curtis' Op/Ed in response to my column? Like Bruce was SILENCED by these . .. . gay militants? REALLY? Gosh . . . well, that IS worrisome, isn't it?

Ron said...

Ann wrote:

""those people" are never really people. Until, one day, they suddenly do become people, then people wonder what all the fuss was about."

That's me now -- wondering what all the fuss is about -- and that is such a key point.

The ginormous advantage that Mr. Curtis (and Co.) has over people like me (and there are millions in this state just like me), on issues like this is:

I don't care, and, whoooaaaa does he care.

When the California Supreme Court made same-sex marriages legal earlier this year, I watched the news footage of the over-the-top-happy same-sex marriage participants for a couple of days days, thought to myself, "Huh, that's kind of interesting. Good for them." Then, I drank my beer, and that was that.

I never thought about it again, because I don't care what other adults do with their lives. As long as it doesn't affect me, or my loved ones, I just don't care. (Well, what's interesting here, now that I think about it, is that the Voter Guide said that Prop 8, if passed, would decrease the amount of public funds in California due to fewer marriage licenses being issued, and, if I remember correctly, that figure was in the multi-millions, so, I suppose Prop 8 does affect ALL of us, on that level.)

In fact, had the Mr. Curtis types not started "jamming it down my throat" with Prop 8, I probably would have never given the subject much thought again.

So, that's the HUUUUGE difference between the Prop. 8 types, and me (and the millions just like me) -- I don't care.

You know what I DO care about? Having to deal with this issue today, because of zealots.

THAT's what I care about, and that's also exactly why I'm becoming less and less of a fan of the initiative process. That playing field is grossly unlevel when it comes to Zealots vs. Me. (I mean, are you kidding? What? It only takes something like 400,000 signatures in a state with over 30 million people to get something on the ballot? Zealots can gather that in a month, if properly focused, and financed. And then, once it's on the ballot, just throw gobs of money at it, and lots of behavior based marketing? No. I'm not down. That's not a healthy way to run a Democracy.)

Finally, could someone do me a quick favor: Considering some of the arguments coming from Prop. 8ers, and the fact that same-sex marriages were once legal in this state, could someone poke their head outside and let me know if they still see a functioning society?

alabamasue said...

It's not just the money lost on marriage licenses. As pointed out in"Prop 8: the Musical" on funnyordie.com, people spend a huge amount of money on weddings. Catering, clothing, entertainment, etc. money affects the local economies. Thanks a lot, h8ters!

Watershed Mark said...

"Democracy is the most valued and also the vaguest of political terms in the modern world."

Fortunately, the USA is - a constitutional republic … a state where the head of state and other officials are elected as representatives of the people, and must govern according to existing constitutional law that limits the government's power over citizens. In a constitutional republic, executive, legislative, and judicial powers are separated into distinct branches and the will of the majority of the population is tempered by protections for individual rights so that no individual or group has absolute power. The fact that a constitution exists that limits the government's power makes the state constitutional. That the head(s) of state and other officials are chosen by election, rather than inheriting their positions, and that their decisions are subject to judicial review makes a state republican; should the judicial review be maximized.
John Adams defined a constitutional republic as "a government of laws, and not of men."[1] Constitutional republics are a deliberate attempt to diminish the perceived threat of majoritarianism, thereby protecting dissenting individuals and minority groups from the "tyranny of the majority" by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population.[2] The power of the majority of the people is checked by limiting that power to electing representatives who are required to legislate with limits of overarching constitutional law which a simple majority cannot modify.
Also, the power of government officials is checked by allowing no single individual to hold executive, legislative and judicial powers. Instead these powers are separated into distinct branches that serve as a check and balance on each other. A constitutional republic is designed so that "no person or group [can] rise to absolute power."[3]
I’m no fan of the initiative process either, but I must ask: where were the pro GLBT zealots during the initiative process?

Churadogs said...

Mark sez:" I’m no fan of the initiative process either, but I must ask: where were the pro GLBT zealots during the initiative process?"

I suspect that most people were like Ron. Didn't care, didn't affect their lives, live and let live, figured the Supreme Court had ruled, didn't really think that people would actually vote to take away people's rights, totally underestimated the power of both religion and soft and hard bigotry and fear that could be stirred up with a heavy dose of long green and false advertising and were caught flat-footed. Add further to the mess, the muddled "Yes on No" wording -- I overheard a couple of young women at SLO Farmer's Market vigorously arguing, Was it Yes if you supported gay marriage or No? Wait, No means Yes on gay marriage? & etc. I suspect a lot of people were equally muddled. Toss in how poorly the general population in general understands just how "civil" marriage really is and exactly why the framers actually bothered to try to separate church and state and you can understand just how fragile our "civil" "rights" really are. They can be taken away in an instant (with a majority of We The People perfectly happy doing that) and can take years and years to re-secure. African Americans should have known that lesson very well indeed. Ditto Japanese Americans (American gulags at Manzanar and other places) and "arab-looking" Americans swept up with no habeus corpus and stuffed into endless detention as suspected terrorists -- no rights for them in a time of lizard-brain fear. Sadly, we never seem to learn the lessons so they keep repeating with different "victims du jours" doing time in the barrel (No Irish Need Apply, Oakie, Don't Let The Sun Set On You In This Down, etc.) because "those people" aren't "real" people. Sigh.

Watershed Mark said...

If “most people” didn't care why did the initiative and subsequent vote succeed?
Are you suggesting they were “tricked” by the wording?

Churadogs said...

Some were. I suspect a lot didn't care until the initiative gotHUGE infusiion of cash and a huge push from various churches (Mormon, certainly, and CAtholic but also conservative evangelical churches all urging parishoners to get out that vote) and the $$ pade for a wide play on TV with the usual scare tactics & fear mongering and the No on 8ers were caught flat footed and with a mixed muddled message. (Implying that gay people will come molest your children if they're allowed to marry hits waaaaayyyy more unconscious hot buttons than pointing out that civil rights applies to all and gay marriage will interfere with nobody's religious beliefs. Nope, it's the old Gay Molesters Are Coming For Your Children that always packs 'em in and always works like a charm! Guaranteed!

Watershed Mark said...

So homosexuals need permission from heterosexuals to act like homosexuals?

I suggest a good civil contract to insure the death and dying of a spose rights a those seem to be the most important.

Watershed Mark said...

Correction:
So homosexuals need permission from heterosexuals to act like heterosexuals?

franc4 said...

Since I believe in the Bible, I believe what it says in
Romans 1:26-27, however for those homohsexuals who don't, and they want to marry solely to receive the same benefits as heterosexual marriages, I can understand, even though I feel it wrong.
Perhaps if there were a way to make these benefits available to homosexual couples, other than marrying, would be the way to go. Like Ron, sexual preference doesn't matter to me - or many - just stop "shoving it down our throats", already. This being a free country, do what you want. Some of us will never believe it the right thing, so do it and shut up already......please!

Watershed Mark said...

For frank4:

Romans 1 (New International Version)

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit[a] of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God[b] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul's Longing to Visit Rome
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. 13I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I planned many times to come to you (but have been prevented from doing so until now) in order that I might have a harvest among you, just as I have had among the other Gentiles.

14I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome.

16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[c] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[d]

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Churadogs said...

Mark, there is a reason the founding fathers made it vital in the Constitution to separate STATE from Religion and your posting above is Exhibit #1. You are free to believe whatever you wish. Under the constitution, however, you are NOT free to impose that belief system upon others by using the STATE as Enforcer of Dogma.

That's the problem with Prop 8 -- it got religion involved in what was a civil matter and that set up the problem of WHICH religion was to prevail as the correct one with the State acting as Enforcer of Dogma. That's EXACTLY what the constitution was designed to prevent.

Billy Dunne said...

I'm going to try a little test here. I'm going to mention "War and Peace" and see if Low cuts and pastes the entire novel here, just to, you know, show he knows what "War and Peace is"

What a tool.

alabamasue said...

...or at the very least, the Wikipedia description of same.

Watershed Mark said...

A local boy kicked me in the butt last week
I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek
I really don't care, in fact I wish him well
'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell
But I ain't never punched a tourist even if he deserved it
An Amish with a 'tude? You know that's unheard of
I never wear buttons but I got a cool hat
And my homies agree, I really look good in black...fool
If you come to visit, you'll be bored to tears
We haven't even paid the phone bill in 300 years
But we ain't really quaint, so please don't point and stare
We're just technologically impaired
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/weirdalyankovic/amishparadise.html

Watershed Mark said...

FYI: http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yibbity, ibbity, ibbity... That's all folks!

The rest is "opinion"...

Watershed Mark said...

Oh and Willy, I'd keep away from run around Sue...She is so bitter.

Watershed Mark said...

I wouldn't want to disappont, so here ya go:

A broader definition of a tool is an entity used to interface between two or more domains that facilitates more effective action of one domain upon the other. The most basic tools are simple machines. For example, a crowbar simply functions as a lever. The further out from the pivot point, the more force is transmitted along the lever. A hammer typically interfaces between the operator's hand and the nail the operator wishes to strike.

A telephone is a communication tool that interfaces between two people engaged in conversation at one level. And between each user and the communication network at another. It is in the domain of media and communications technology that a counterintuitive aspect of our relationships with our tools first began to gain popular recognition. Marshall McLuhan famously said "We shape our tools. And then our tools shape us." McLuhan was referring to the fact that our social practices co-evolve with our use of new tools and the refinements we make to existing tools.

Tools that have evolved for use in particular domains can be given different assignations. For example, tools designed for domestic use are often called utensils.

Observation has confirmed that that multiple species can use tools, including monkeys, apes, several birds, sea otters, and others. Philosophers originally thought that only humans had the ability to make tools, until zoologists observed birds[1] and monkeys[2][3][4] making tools. Now humans' unique relationship to tools is considered to be that we are the only species that uses tools to make other tools.[citation needed]

Most anthropologists believe that the use of tools was an important step in the evolution of mankind.[5] Humans evolved an opposable thumb - useful in holding tools - and increased dramatically in intelligence, which aided in the use of tools.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool

We would often be sorry if our wishes were gratified.
Aesop

;-) Don't cha just love it?! DOH!

Shark Inlet said...

Ann,

The problem with your argument about separation of church and state is that the root of all our laws is some notion of right and wrong and religion speaks to this very same issue. Simply put, all laws are a reflection of what is considered "right" according to some belief system. If you wanna believe that the founding fathers got rights right, go ahead ... but they seem to have missed quite a few which we celebrate today. If one views the constitution as a living document, it becomes very important to get the "right" people in the position of judge so that you can get rights defined in the way you like them.

Frankly, I get uncomfortable with all these sorts of discussions. Without using the slippery slope argument, I do believe that once people start saying "I was born this way" and saying that it's nature and not nurture, I begin to worry. After all, we all know that many behaviors and/or feelings are at least partially genetic. I am hesitant to bring this up, but some pedophiles say that they believe that they have been born as such. Psychology and genetics would suggest that this is at least in part true. Certainly, no one would argue that pedophilia should be legalized even if it is something people are born with.

So then, what can we make of all this. I will not argue that Prop 8 is inherently right or wrong. I believe that a logically consistent argument can be made for and against 8. That being said, I think that this issue is important, but it is a misguided battle over the word marriage. Presumably some gays want to be able to use the word married. Presumably some traditionalists want the word marriage to mean what it has for a long time.

The problem here is historical in nature. Waaaaaay back when the State started (inappropriately) using the word marriage to refer to a contract, they set the stage for this problem. The word marriage has been a church word for thousands of years. To use the word marriage as has been done in the US is much like if Congress passes a law to give a tax break to folks who "take communion" and if they define "taking communion" as eating grape jelly on wheat toast. Silliness all around.

The goals of those supporting gay marriage are honorable, as are the goals of those supporting Prop 8. Let's not pretend that one side is a bunch of evil doers.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,

On "Communion" you might want to rethink your toast and jam "position".
It is that kind of thinking which can lead you to incite instead of insight.

Seriously, a little reading on your part might be in order. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Eucharist

The Eucharist, also called Holy Communion or Lord's Supper and other names, is a Christian sacrament commemorating, by consecrating bread and wine, the Last Supper, the final meal that Jesus Christ shared with his disciples before his arrest, and eventual crucifixion, when he gave them bread saying, "This is my body", and wine saying, "This is my blood."[1][2][3][4]

There are different interpretations of the significance of the Eucharist, but "there is more of a consensus among Christians about the meaning of the Eucharist than would appear from the confessional debates over the sacramental presence, the effects of the Eucharist, and the proper auspices under which it may be celebrated."[5]

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

When you read Swift's Modest Proposal, what did you think he was saying?

alabamasue said...

Shark-
That was too funny! Swift's "A Modest Proposal"?!?. I'm sure mark will look it up in Wikipedia, but will never understand irony, or satire.

Watershed Mark said...

http://art-bin.com/art/omodest.html
Sure Steve Satire has its place, silly boy.

Changing the subject doesn't mitigate the stupidity of your comments regarding the Eucharist.
But you go right on ahead and knock yourself out.

Given that you make comments you cannot or will not back up(see previous posting requests) I have no real need or desire to engage in Philosophical discussions with anonymice.
Sure, we think you are Steve Rein but you haven’t been open or honest about your identity. Why not? What or who are you afraid of? Tunes?,MIKE?, Willy?, Sue?, frank4? And the rest of the gang?

BS, the WIKI is a fast way to cut and paste foundational statements into the blogoshere. That's it.
I understand your need to attempt to minimize from your closet as you change identities. You are a dreamer whose dream has been crushed. Time to get over it, "for the times they are a changin'."

Changing your identity doesn't change you, "my dear"...

With that all said: I think that Swift's Modest Proposal can useful in demonstrating how the weak and young are being targeted in LO/BP.
Interesting how Swift died 100 years before the Potato Famine in 1845 as his satire may have actually been more useful in trying to incite cannibalism.

But then there was America the beautiful…

Watershed Mark said...

I wanted to share the response I received from my Catholic Deacon and Friend "Paul" regarding the Prop 8 discussion.
I think it best to post his comments without comment from me:
Save: Honesty is the best policy...

Mark,
I have just two points to offer:

1. The founding fathers did not specify “separation of Church and State”, but accommodation of different religions and a prohibition of a state religion. NOTE: Even if religion was banned, the state cannot ban faith – “The Spirit goes where it wills.” Our Christian faith grew the fastest and developed more deeply during times of persecution and suppression. Maybe a little persecution would be good for us.

2. I was never quite sure why the Catholic Church got all embroiled with the state definition of marriage. Our Catholic Religion has never (in modern times) recognized State Contracted marriage. According to Canon Law, all faithful Catholics must be married in the Church by a Priest or Deacon for that marriage to be recognized by the Church, regardless of how the State defines marriage. If a Catholic couple gets married outside of the Church, i.e. by a justice of the peace – the marriage is invalid and the couple is understood to be living in sin and cannot receive the sacraments. Even if a non-Catholic couple gets married and then joins the Catholic Church – they must then get married in the Church. Otherwise their marriage is not recognized and they would be unable to receive the sacraments.

I believe we would do well to focus on the issues where we have a real stake. It seems to me the real threat to marriage is not the 4.5% of people who are homosexual – it is the 50%+ heterosexual people who get married and then divorced, leaving countless children without a stable home life – or all the uncommitted couples who live together without the benefit of a marriage contract or covenant. In our society the women and children lose the most in these situations, the men get what they want without any commitment.

PAX CHRISTI,
Paul

alabamasue said...

Not sure what you're saying, mark. I have never posted here under any other name but "alabamasue", so I don't see how I have changed my identity. As for Prop 8, AG Jerry Brown is working to have it invalidated, as it should be. Voters do not have the right to discriminate against ANY group of people, period. You, and your out-dated irrelevant "religion" (AKA, superstition) don't get to tell others how to live.

Watershed Mark said...

alabamasue said...
... I have never posted here under any other name but "alabamasue", so I don't see how I have changed my identity.

Hard to prove when you are an anonymouse...

Why not tell us who you are?
What are you so afraid of?

Time to come out of "the closet".

Sue says: You, and your out-dated irrelevant "religion" (AKA, superstition) don't get to tell others how to live.

Please cut and paste my words you use to support your belief that "I am telling you how to live"...
You have just been called, time to show your cards.

But alas, as with Steve, you cannot do it. Because I did not write it.

I say live as you will, just be prepared to suffer the consequences...

I also say "We are "not here" much longer that we "are here".

Why so bitter Sue?

Watershed Mark said...

Correction:
I also say: We are "not here" much longer than we "are here".

Why so bitter Sue?

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

What do you take to be my position on communion? You write that I should rethink my position. Presumably you believe you understand my opinion on the issue.

That I've never stated my opinion I find it curious that you feel the need to tell me I should rethink it.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote: To use the word marriage as has been done in the US is much like if Congress passes a law to give a tax break to folks who "take communion" and if they define "taking communion" as eating grape jelly on wheat toast.

"If" putting a sacrament on a par with eating grape jelly on wheat toast isn't what you meant why did you write it?

"If" you do have an opinion about communion, why write such a stupid comment.

What are you teaching your children?

Kateri said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

If eating grape jelly on wheat toast (which has the same elements as the elements to some extent) is defined to be communion by the state, it would be patently stupid. It would be the redefining by the state of a kingdom word. It would be entirely out of line.

Along those same lines, the state has taken the word marriage and redefined it to mean something that is the equivalent of a civil contract and no more. A "marriage" according to the laws of California or Arizona or any other is not the same as a marriage according to the church.

This whole mess over Prop 8 is an argument over whether the word marriage should retain the "one man, one woman"ness that is implicit in the church's definition of the term.

As for what I am teaching my children ... I am teaching them history, scripture, logic and latin along with mathematics and literature. Why does that matter to you?