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Tuesday, September 08, 2009

The Sierra Club's Newsletter Checks In

The following comments appeared in the Sept newsletter on the Planning Commission recommendations on the Los Osos Sewer.


Santa Lucian • September 2009

Sewer Myths Busted

The County Planning Commission
hearings on the Los Osos Wastewater
Project shone a bright light on
various claims asserted by the County
and the Public Works Department
about the biggest, longest-running
public works project in county
history. They fell like autumn leaves
before the questioning of Commissioners
and in the face of hard data.
A short list, with corrections:
[in italics]

Gravity sewers don’t leak; any
evidence of such deficiency is a result
of old technology, the failure of 100-
year-old clay pipes, etc.

-- Major infiltration and inflow of
groundwater has been found in gravity
systems less than ten years old.

Gravity sewers are environmentally
preferable to STEP/STEG collection.

-- The only significant environmental
benefit of gravity over STEP is the
reduction of the amount of sludge
produced when a gravity system is
used with facultative ponds. If facultative
ponds are not used, there is no
environmental advantage to a gravity
sewer. Facultative ponds are not (yet)
part of the County’s project.

All collection systems would have
roughly equivalent impacts and the
Coastal Commission has no issues
with the selection of one over
another.

-- Dan Carl, Central Coast District
Manager, California Coastal Commission,
wrote to County Public Works
Director Paavo Ogren on July 15 to
say that sludge reduction should be
made a “a high priority in the
selection of preferred collection and
treatment technologies.”

The Tonini disposal site might not be
outside the water basin because, theoretically, there could be connecting
strata between the aquifers.

-- The Tonini site is outside the water
basin. Treated wastewater disposed of
at Tonini would be water wasted.

The Andre site cannot be used
because PG&E will not allow the hay/
grass crop that would be required to be grown under power lines.

-- PG&E restrictions apply to the
heights of trees and structures under
power lines, not grass and hay.

The use of recycled water in the Los
Osos basin cannot be required until
the basin has been adjudicated.

-- State law requires that recycled
water must be used in lieu of well
water by ag users if recycled water is
available.

“We’re trying to give the
county some guidance and
direction to avoid a train
wreck at the end of this
line.”
- Peter Douglas
Executive Director,
California Coastal Commission



A Sewer, Almost
Never did a project so flawed get so much better so fast

As a rule, improvements in what you
are given are extremely unlikely if you
simply take whatever is offered.
On August 13, after hundreds of
hours of study and public testimony,
two field trips, 8,000 pages of documentation
and 170 pages of findings
and conditions, the County Planning
Commission proved this point when it
approved the permit for the Los Osos
Wastewater Project.

The Commission vastly improved on
the project as originally submitted by
County Public Works -- a project that
had no chance of receiving a coastal
development permit due to its
impermissable environmental
impacts. Sewage will now be subjected
to a significantly higher level of
treatment, producing effluent that
can be safely recycled for use on
crops. The treatment plant and
disposal method will not consume
645 acres of prime agricultural land.
The treated effluent will remain in the
basin and be put to work curbing
saltwater intrusion instead of being
sprayed away outside the water basin
in the middle of a drought. A mandate
to reduce water use by 25 percent is
included, more than doubling the
originally proposed level of water
conservation.

The improved project demonstrates
the reason why the Sierra Club, in
agreeing at the outset that we all
needed to “support the project,”
elected not to follow the path of least
resistance in doing so. We joined with
concerned local citizens who insisted
that the project feature tertiary, not
just secondary treatment of wastewater;
that treated effluent be disposed
of inside, not outside, the ground
water basin and be made available to
growers to reduce pumping of the
lower aquifer and seawater intrusion;
and that a more aggressive water
conservation program be mandated.

And so it has come to pass.

Unfortunately, what the Commission
did not do, despite a wealth of
evidence that it should, was mandate
the use of a pressurized effluent
collection system and the use of
facultative ponds for treatment. The
selected gravity system and Biolac
treatment would result in greater
quantities of toxic sludge produced as
an end product of treatment. These
two parts of the project still need to
be changed to ensure that the County
takes the environmentally superior
course of action on the largest public
works project in its history.

The Environmental Impact Report
on which those decisions were based
was correctly and repeatedly characterized
by Commissioners as “flawed.”
They were being kind. Golden State
Water Co. correctly summed up the
fatal flaw of the EIR’s “failure to make
a connection between the facts
presented and the conclusions
reached.” Further: “because the
County fails to set forth an accurate
project description, a meaningful
alternatives analysis is impossible.
Because the DEIR does not provide a
stable project description to which
alternatives can be compared, the
‘alternatives’ presented in the DEIR
are more akin to a series of proposed
projects, rather than the means to
compare the worth and value of
alternatives to a proposed project.”

The Sierra Club is appealing the
certification of the EIR in order to
correct those flaws, correctly state the
project’s environmental impacts and
clarify the collection and disposal
options before a permit is approved.

The Planning Commission’s process
and the project that emerged from it
was a testament to the value of public
advocacy. Local residents, community
groups, wastewater experts and
environmental organizations brought
their concerns to the Commission,
backed them up with facts and data,
and the Commission listened.

Had we all heeded the call to “just
do it” and acquiesced to the project
that Public Works submitted to the
Planning Commission, none of the
above improvements would be part of
the project now.

When the permit comes before the
Board, for the sake of the aquifer, the
Morro Bay Estuary and the citizens of
Los Osos, those improvements need
to stay there, and two more need to
be added: an environmentally preferable
treatment method, and the
consideration of an alternative
collection system in the bidding
process.

"The estimated progress of seawater
intrusion since 2005 is the third, and
biggest bulge; the rate of progress
for the prior 20 years is shown in the
layers to the left of it. The rate of seawater
intrusion into the basin is now under the
Los Osos downtown and commercial area
and appears to be four to eitht times faster
than it was fourt years ago"

Cleath & Associates/Keith Weimer, LOSG

151 comments:

Watershed Mark said...

Ironically the conservation of water and subsequent reduction of "flow" exacerbates the flawed shallow angle leaky gravity sewer pipe design Paavo's no bid engineer relied upon and used in their flawed and incomplete study of alternatives, as the scouring required to keep the pipes clean is lost. This is one reason low pressure systems must be actually and properly evaluated.

The EIR which relied upon Paavo's no bid engineer's flawed study is equally flawed. Garbage in , garbage out, even that trash cost $7M.
Paavo’s process would be laughable if it weren’t so damned serious…

Watershed Mark said...

The EIR which relied upon Paavo's no bid engineer's flawed study is equally flawed. Garbage in , garbage out, even though that trash cost $7M.
Paavo’s process would be laughable if it weren’t so damned serious…

I trust Paavo will be proud of his process as it will very likely follow him the rest of his career, just not in the way he thought it would when he began it.

Watershed Mark said...

Why wasn't vacuum included in a $7M study of alternatives?
Was was STEP/STEG ejected from the design build process?

Shark Inlet said...

Here's a good question about our aquifers and the project.

Has there been any word from Paavo on whether schools and the golf course will be used as places to use treated wastewater?


Part of this fiasco is because Los Osos has several serious water issues which are all related ... wastewater, seawater, groundwater, etc. AB2701 was written to give the County authority over one issue (waste) but not the others. As the County is not a water provider (as the CSD is), they can't deal with aquifer issues as easily.

The County also decided on the Tonini location, in part, to follow what the believed was the will of the people ("out of town, no matter how much it costs"). This was a political decision and it was a mistake.


My next question is whether a current cost estimate of the cemetery location versus TriW has been done? After all, TriW is more expensive in some ways, but has already been designed so would be cheaper in others ... and once inflation is factored in, which of the two could be finished the quickest?


Some would blame Pandora. Others would blame Lisa. Some are now blaming Paavo. How surprising! Next it will be the CCC, waterboards and Army Corps or Fish&Wildlife when they make decisions that we don't like.



And ... Mark, where are your sources? Please provide links to prove your statements (and not blog postings) ... if you don't you are a failure :)

Sewertoons said...

I'll believe 50gpd indoor use when I see it.

Just because California has loosened the graywater laws does not mean the County will be OK with people taking the pipe from their washing machines and draining detergents, fabric softeners (and the creative chemicals contained in those products) out into their yards. Shower water? Yuck. People pee in that!

FOGSWAMP said...

Shark

I think Sea Pines golf course is already using the treated water from their own plant.

It's obvious from your playing the TriW card that you don't own or operate a business downwind of TriW.

Have you ever packed a lunch, or picked up a lovely Carlock's donut, then followed Al's Pumping truck around town, parked next to the pumping operation, then enjoyed you food???

Mike said...

Fogswamp... Do you "think" or "know" whether the golf course if using the treated water for irrigation...??? Are they reusing the treated water for domestic use...???

...and Fogswamp, have you gone over the Tri-W operational plans with an engineer...???

...it would also seem that should STEP/Steg be installed, that maintenance pumping would be taking place in several holding tanks every day forever... It seems a bit odd that you would follow Al's honey wagon and even park next to the pumper just before going for that high cholesterol donut... I'd actually prefer the "flush and forget it" sewer, but then I don't have the desire to follow a pump truck around just so I could complain...

Shark Inlet said...

Fogswamp,

Sea Pines is currently pumping 50,000 gallons per day (or more) in addition to using treated wastewater. They can take more treated wastewater each and every day than all three grade schools combined.

I am not playing any TriW card, but wondering aloud what the actual costs are. After all, only a fool would not want to know whether there is a cheaper option, even with drawbacks, before making a purchase. Why are some people so opposed to including TriW in any cost comparison?

As for the whole "upwind" issue ... have you ever played golf at Sea Pines? If so, you've walked past a sewage treatment plant. Were you offended by the odor? Are the folks who live just downwind of that plant complaining about the odor? Even next to the plant no one notices the smell, so don't pretend that sewer plants always have odor issues.

How about facts instead of FUD?


For Mark, my word verification is "fiestive" ... a word which should actually exist as a description of a really good Cinco de Mayo party. (For Mark, a picture.)

FOGSWAMP said...

Shark

Fact number two you should have learned as a child "crap stinks".

Fact number one is that most realistic people know fact number two, therefor want to place the outhouse downwind. Thus the "move the sewer signs".

The TriW site is where our non-existent park should be.

Mike

Read my lips. I said "I think", did I not? Why is that so confusing to you?

No, I have not gone over the TriW plans with an engineer. Haven't you heard that a more enlightened group chose an out of town site?

You're right, one shouldn't follow Al's pump truck around "just to complain" but rather to learn how to smell.

Sandra said...

A government official anticipating a 'train wreck?' That's novel in itself.

Mike said...

Geez Fogstuff... If you haven't been over the only Planned treatment plant to ever get fully permitted, then you have NO FACTS to back up your personal "opinion" that the Tri-W plant with the carbon scrubbers would have emmitted any oder... No facts, just opinion based on some "enlightened group" who have never designed, never constructed and never been through the permitting process... My that sounds so "scientific"...

...and you did say "think", which leads one to consider your words as mere "opinion", again... not facts... Go read and learn from Shark...!!! Quit wasting time with the "enlightened group"...

Shark Inlet said...

Fogswamp,

Should we infer from your words that you believe that downwind is worth any price or that you simply don't want people to know the actual cost of TriW versus the current County proposal?

In short, are you so wealthy that you don't care what it costs you and so selfish that you don't care what it costs us ... or are you in favor of limiting information to those who are being asked to pay the bill?

It would seem that anyone would be in favor of a fair comparison of all reasonable options. Why aren't you?

Sewertoons said...

Fogswamp - are you for GRAVITY or STEP/STEG?

Shark Inlet said...

We can only infer from Fogswamp's comments that he is opposed to STEP because of the smell ... after all, everyone knows that if you have to pump septics they stink and if you have a collection system with valves to release gasses, it will smell.

Personally, I don't think that it would be a big deal, but someone who feels so strongly about smells would, of course, support gravity.

FOGSWAMP said...

Sewertoons

I always thought that STEP/STEG would cost less.

But it was back-handed off the table. Probably because it may well have been less costly, no matter where it was installed..

Seemingly, we have come full circle from when the project was first hijacked from the county, many long years ago.

What can be said that hasn't already been hashed over a thousand times?

Mike said...

Foggy... Do you currently have a septic tank...??? If so, how often is it pumped...???

Alon Perlman said...

Yada Yada
Before we move on,
Two separate articles in the Santa Lucian, page 7
Sorry for being a stickler for details. Ann
I cannot tell if the second article was written by Andrew Christie. But the caption on the left of the famous intrusion chart “Cleath & Associates/Keith Weimer, LOSG” is for the chart itself and really is the “2005 Cleath & Associates chart as appended to by Keith Weimer of the LOSG with data provided by CSD District Engineer Rob Miller in 2009”

The author of the last paragraph would be Keith Wiemer, including,
- “The rate of seawater intrusion into the basin is now under the
Los Osos downtown and commercial area and appears to be four to eight times faster than it was four years ago"
Another way of saying that, is that the salt level at the Palisades well has doubled into undrinkable (unsellable) levels in the last 3 years (to 250 mg) and previously doubled in the 3 years prior to that, in ’ 85 till 2002, it was essentially flat (background-in Los Osos appears to be 30 to 70 mg) with some hint of a rise in 2002. Which, BTW I may have stated at the recent BOS meeting public comment when talking about SWI (just before Maria came on), or earlier at CSD.

Unfortunately the myth that Los Osos contributes any SIGNIFICANT loading of nitrates or bacteria to the Bay is still being perpetuated.

I also think that without Broderson influence within 3 years(or equivalent positive hydrodynamic pressure, at the Pallisades area), at the current low level of application No mitigation will ever work.
and SWI will not be stopped or even slowed.
Sharklet (sorry Dr. Shark Inlet, just had to keep the typo, this one time) I agree. the chart in the link gives the figures. I know you have the facility in converting #'s to figures.
The scotts valley plant did not stink on the day we went; Don, Linde, Albert, Toons? but it's not going to MIDTOWN at this point.
first to mention Graywater on this section -Toons

Mike said...

...so Alon, given the apparent increased rate of SWI, do you think the "move the sewer" to some, as yet to be acquired parcel and as yet to be designed system, has been worth the time spend since halting the permitted project...???? Will it be worth delaying any project for another 4, 10 or even 30 years until the perfect solution is found...????

It's beginning to sound like a desal plant and/or pipe line is going to be needed as SWI renders the wells inoperable... Won't those lawsuits/appeals be fun...????

Alon Perlman said...

Ya dont see my name on an appeal.
As I stated at the LOCSD second Candidates Forum-last year, At least I think I did, it was only shown a few times-so-paraphrasing "Everyone assoaciated with this project proceeded with the assumption that they had the correct actions before them. Hindsight showed otherwise" then I said something to the effect of whoever will be elected is going to make mistakes, then I said something else etc...2701 was in affect.
The basin is overpumped. I could even live with Tonini (but I called and am on record or most of its issues, before the EIR agency responses, well before others)if the pumping was not literally creating a hole in the basin. and know that move the sewer was based on a vote. I respect the democratic process except when inconsistent with Science.

I was suggesting that the rate was probably much higher and acelerating long before the data came out. (and strangely a CEQA option null hypothesis (not available) remains true).
I don't plan to dedicate my life to this, some are making a long career here.
Gotta run, thanks, to be continued...

Aaron said...

FOGSWAMP,

STEP/STEG does cost less, but there are additional homeowner costs such as upgrading electrical panels, landscaping costs and there's concerns over easements.

You could say that STEP/STEG would actually be cheaper if that system was installed prior to the development of any homes, but a lot of these costs associated STEP are one-time expenses.

Saltwater intrusion is a serious problem. When Wimer cited Cleath's figures from 2009, you see a jump in mg -- so we'll start tasting saltwater in our drinking water not before long.

I have a question for those who are in favor of gravity collection at Mid Town. With that project, would the water be treated and cycled back into the basin? I never understood how secondary and tertiary treatment would work with that plan.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote: “After all, only a fool would not want to know whether there is a cheaper option, even with drawbacks, before making a purchase.”
Steve, I am impressed! You are beginning to learn. Why would Paavo be so foolish?

MIKE little mouse wrote: “Go read and learn from Shark...!!!”
MIKE little mouse: You are such a joker but you just aren’t funny.

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote: “I'll believe 50gpd indoor use when I see it.”
Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette, Why should anyone believe a liar?

Steve wrote: “if you have a collection system with valves to release gasses, it will smell. Personally, I don't think that it would be a big deal, but someone who feels so strongly about smells would, of course, support gravity.”

Steve, I love it when you demonstrate you don’t understand design or process. Sewers create hydrogen sulfide gas which smells like rotten eggs and that is something associated with leaky gravity sewers having manholes every 400 feet and 22 lift station/pocket pumps, not sealed collection systems as you suggest.

Watershed Mark said...

Vaccum eliminates the problems and costs associated with Gravity and STEP/STEG.

Mike said...

Mark continues to demonstrate how little he understands engineering and economics... perhaps he should go back to selling preserved meats...

There always was and will always be a sealed, pressurized, portion of the collection system... Mark won't tell you that because he doesn't know and couldn't understand the blueprints if he did see them...

Mark will never be honest about the true costs of STEP, again, because he doesn't know how to estimate the full cost of decommissioning existing tanks and installing new... He has no idea what it will really takes to install the piping in the street...he has no idea what is already under the streets and what more is planned... He is only on this blog to create dirision and confusion... He gives no facts, just noise... He has no idea how much the delays and backruptcy have already cost this community...

Remember the Wrecklamator...??? Remember Mark trying to sell that failure...!!!! Now what nonsense is he trying to sell to separate you from your wallet...each and every time he posts, he is trying to gain from this community, he has no noble end other than to line his pockets...

FOGSWAMP said...

Mike

You asked "do you have a septic tank ....how often was it pumped"

In the 23 years I have had this one, I've had it pumped twice.

One time was because I had about six family members that fled New Orleans due to Katrina.

I believe the kids just took looooong showers, too often.

It is a rather large concrete tank with a long leach line.

I have a seperate pit for the washing machine so the bleach etc won't kill the poop eating bugs.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Are you telling us that STEP systems don't have valves to release gasses?

Watershed Mark said...

Steve:
Read carefully: "Vaccum eliminates the problems and costs associated with Gravity and STEP/STEG."

Why wasn't it studied in a supposed study of alternatives that cost $7MM?

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Read carefully ... I wasn't discussing vacuum, but STEP.

So, to criticize my comment about STEP is ... um ... sloppy or silly. Dunno which.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

I thought you were done???
Attempting to blame others for the county's failings is something I would expect from a mouse.

Keep digging.
While your in that hole, perhaps you are getting lose to the answer to my very simple questions:

Why was vacuum colection not studied by Paavo's no bid engineer in their review of "alternatives."

Why was STEP/STEG ejected by Paavo from the design build process?

Looks like the cat got your tounge.

Alon Perlman said...

Blue Carpet is AEIS?
Ben didn't hand me the phone in time.
Hola from Los Osos.
Morro Cayucos Joint powers Authority have decided not to learn from the mistakes of Los Osos and will be learning them from their Own EIR coming soon to a Chanel 21 near you or a web browser C-Span, SLO-SPAN
Hola from Cayucos. Stop the secondary waste PIPELINE into the Ocean or the Regulatory agencies will.I spoke right after Andrew Cristie (Sierra Club), earlier Marla Brutan, Jeff Pienak (Surfrider) spoke, and so did Mr. Diftta, Piper R., Linde O. Cayucus and Morro Bay Citizens on both sides.
Mostly for reclaimed tertiary.
I think 50 Gal per day Per Guy and Gal is going to be very difficult to get. Targets, should they be unattainable? gotta aim low in this case, but gotta start.
Fogswamp- the primitive separation you describe is true for most or all LO septics, That pipe can be turned into the start of a gray water system but it doesn't include kitchen sinks and obviously not showers. I send a cup of bleach down to the Septic once a month or so just to let the bacteria know who'se da BOS. Following a pumpout and integrity test, (48 hrs? hold) why should Fogswamp's concrete tank not be converted to STEP is still beyond me. Relates to your question Mike, that would be cheapest.
but that is not the project B4-US.

The 250 mg is where the water companies sit up take notice and get ready to blend. i could look it up & find out what the official cut off is, but then why be the expert all day long. What's the LD 50 on H2O? Ever tasted distilled Water? Sucks the taste right out of your taste buds.
Without research n'such, (Waste, Water, it's just a click away, click away) the MIDTOWN AKA "Notorious, Dubya-Trey" in the "preffered" and still in "current" project has a station and I think the Ferrous somthing is added there to reduce smell. Wmark fill in please, 22 lift stations etc....

Shark Inlet said...

LD50 on drinking water is ... um ... pretty high. Wasn't there a case in Sacramento recently?

Word Verification: dissing.

Seriously.

Watershed Mark said...

Alon,
ECOfluid's Upflow Sludge Blaket Filtration systems are virtually odorless by design so no chemicals are added in an effort to prevent/eliminate odor.

I'm educating and illuninating stuff that is beneficial to the homeowners in the PZ and elsewhere free of charge.
Which is a very different business model than the current "pretend to study "some" alternatives, come up with two and eliminate one" for $7MM model.

The individual electrical panel problem was the red herring that provided Paavo the cover he needed to add STEP into the process.

Vacuum has no such cost component which is why it wasn't studied.
Vacuum in the case beats out STEP and gravity.

Watershed Mark said...

ECOfluid's Upflow Sludge Blanket Filtration systems

The individual electrical panel problem was the red herring that provided Paavo the cover he needed to "alow" STEP into the process.

Why wasn't vacuum studied?

Watershed Mark said...

The individual electrical panel problem was the red herring that provided Paavo the cover he needed to "allow" STEP into the process.

The costs of removal and replacement of failed tankage/all tankage is another cost that vacuum does not have.

So why wasn't vacuum studied during a $7MM study of alternatives?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

Keep digging.
While your in that hole, perhaps you are getting close to the answer to my very simple questions:

Mike said...

Sorry Mark, but by now you have had an answer from Paavo... Why do you continue to blow smoke and not post his reply...???

Time to face reality Mark, this County and community are not interested in you or your "services"... Why are you not busy "helping" another community who wants your assistance....???

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,
Paavo's non response is a response of sorts and will easily fit into my arguement.

Who told you I am not helping other communities?

Mike said...

Mark, you are left with no argument...

...you obviously are too dense to understand that this County and community are not interested in you or your "services"...

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

You just don't "get it".
Keep digging.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

You never told us ... is Obama black or is he white? Please tell us the truth because we can't figure anything out here in SLO County without the help of people from other states. Heck, we're so dumb here that we even want the help of a water expert (who only seems to promote one solution) who doesn't even understand the health of the aquifer of his community.

Sheesh!

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
I'm still trying to figure out why our POTUS won't show us his birth certificate.
I wouldn't be so hard on myself if I were you. I would back off on the rhetoric though. I never proclaimed expert status though I apreciate you saying so.

MIKE little mouse,
When will you face reality and show/tell us just who you really are?
Man or Woman up there cow person.
If your still afrid, just stay in you closet. More tea?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,
When will you face reality and show/tell us just who you really are?
Man or Woman up there cow person.
If your still afraid, just stay in you closet. More tea?

MIKE little mouse,

I said I would be here with you to the end.
Everyone who knows me understands I am a man of my word.

Remember I will be using the LOSTDEP as an example of what to do and perhaps more importantly what not to do.
I'm sorry the process is long and winding.
I have perspective and you do not.
I know you are tired, but I am not.

Are you "gettin' it" yet?

Watershed Mark said...

If you're still afraid, just stay in you closet. More tea?

Aaron said...

Mark writes, "I'm still trying to figure out why our POTUS won't show us his birth certificate."

It's right here, Mark.

Don't mean to be a stickler, but I don't know how anyone can take you seriously after that comment.

You really are a member of Murphy's peanut gallery.

Watershed Mark said...

If you're still afraid, just stay in your closet. More tea?

Note to self: Typos are directly proportionate to how many other things one does while blogging...

Watershed Mark said...

Aaron,
"The Obama campaign has provided at The Ticket's request what it says is a copy of the Illinois senator's official birth certificate, reproduced here..

If it was a certified copy where is the "stamp?"

Mike said...

...This is turning into one of the funniest moments on this blog... still laughing about how much the AZ meat sales person (that's someone porporting to be the Wrecklamator sales person and claiming to be some one named Mark) is paying Ann for the use of her space... He might want to try taking his act to a Comedy Club after this...

He may need some new material though since Paavo has apparently turned off the public faucet and Shark keeps shooting down all the "misstated" facts... Ok, so I enjoy calling them lies... Even Aaron has seen through the snake oil... Alon recognized the humor in all this some time ago... Yup Marky is sliding down the razor blade of life... nothing between his bottom situated grey cell except his Depends...

Have a nice day folks... and keep on laughing, Marky won't be around much longer to provide the comedy...

Watershed Mark said...

Aaron,
Before I shut the browser page you pointed me to I glanced at comments.
I thought these below to be on point. I guess I’m not the only person who doesn’t understand why there was such a fuss over such a simple document or why President Obama continues to resist requests to have the Hawaii release what is in their official record.

This is not a birth certificate..............
You could not even leave the country with this piece of paper.
Where is the hospitial birth certificate.
Show us the the birth certificate......................
Posted by: james | June 16, 2008 at 07:10 AM
Did they have Laser Printers in 1961? Why is everything in all caps except the date. Seems odd.
Posted by: Nolan | June 16, 2008 at 07:40 AM
Thanks for posting this. it should help stop another internet rumor and, hopefully, get us back to the issue of which candidate is more capable of handling the issues--both the known ones and the unexpected ones that we can not possibly anticipate today.
-Wm Tate,
http://www.atimelikethis.us/
Posted by: Wm Tate | June 16, 2008 at 07:50 AM
Andrew, it's disappointing that a journalist your age would push a fake birth certificate as real.
I'll give you credit for being gullible, if you remove this nonsense ASAP.
There is no signature, official stamp, and the font wasn't around in 1961.
Posted by: george | June 16, 2008 at 08:27 AM

What seems to be missing on Obama's copy is the signature of the State Registrar of Vital Statistics and the raised state seal. Even if you can't see the seal is raised in a photocopy, the state seal should be there. I was a claims rep at Social Security for seven years. The copy of Obama's certificate wouldn't be acceptable as proof of age or citizenship if he was filing a claim for benefits because of the missing signature and seal. No state office issues an official birth record or death record without a signature and seal authenticating the document. So, where did this thing come from? In this age of technology, the document could easily be a computer creation. Again, without the registrar's signature and state seal, this is worth about as much as several pieces of toilet paper.
Posted by: mk5112 TX | June 16, 2008 at 09:54 AM
Wow, I hate to tell you vaunted journalists how to do your job, but why haven't you guys asked Obama for his BIRTH CERTIFICATE as officially filed in the state of Hawaii and not just a scanned copy of a reprinted CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH which is typically not an acceptable document to replace a BIRTH CERTIFICATE?
Most of us have already figured out that Obama was born alive.
Posted by: mpur | June 16, 2008 at 11:19 AM
of course there is no question as to the authenticity of the document. it was provided by the obama campaign!! at the ticket's request!!
"And, anyway, the Obama campaign has provided at The Ticket's request a copy of the Illinois senator's birth certificate, reproduced here, showing he was born in Hawaii on Aug. 4, 1961, at 7:24 p.m"
end of debate!!!!
Posted by: california bob | June 16, 2008 at 12:15 PM

I appreciate your passion for someone you feel so good about, loyalty is a great attribute.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

If only wishes were fishes.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark reveals that he's a birther (see both urbandictionary and wikipedia).

I would think that you would be embarrassed to admit that because it sort of shows you are a conspiracy theorist nutbag conservative.

In any case the Obama birth cert has been made available (even though you don't believe it). Heck, the Republican governor of Hawaii verified that the cert was legit.

Just because the birth cert doesn't look like yours or mine doesn't mean it isn't legit. Do you also refuse to take foreign money in other countries just because the funny colors, unfamiliar people and different sizes wig you out?

Aaron has it right. If you want to be taken seriously, you shouldn't make off-the-wall statements. (Did you catch the 2nd Michael Jackson reference today?)

Mike said...

RAOTFLMAO...!!!!!!!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

Sticks and stones boys...
Steve,
Link me up with that stamped certificate.

Name calling demonstrates your bias not mine.

Mike said...

...but your PREJUDICE'S are head and shoulders above this blog...

You lose...!!!

Watershed Mark said...

You wish...


You wish!

FOGSWAMP said...

10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care!!!!

By Scott W. Atlas, M.d., a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor at the Stanford University Medical Center.

A version of this article appeared recently in the February 18, 2009, Washington Times.

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventative cancer screening than Canadians.

Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.

Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K.

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. (that one won't set well with Keynesian macroeconomic professors eh?)

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with care they receive than Canadians.

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K.

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.

Note that the article is supported with numerous references for each and every "Fact".

Also, read "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation" 2004 Economic Report of the President" 10 Most Important Recent Medical Innovations (with country of orgin).

Said report indicates three catagories Technology - Description - Country of Origin.

No. 1: Noninvasive imaging - US & U.K.

No. 2: Hypertension and heart failure drugs - U.S.

No. 3: Minimally invasive surgery to unblock arteries - Switzerland

No. 4: Cholesterol-rreducing drugs - U.S. & Japan

No. 5: Breast cancer detection (mammography) - Indeterminate

No. 6: Surgery for heart failure -U.S.

No. 7: Antiulcer drugs - U.S. & Sweden

No,. 8: Antidepressent drugs - U.S.

No. 9: Eye surgery - U.S.

No. 10: Mechanical Prostheses (Hip & Knee) U.S. & Japan & U.K.

From a "Canadian" who is "often wrong but seldom in doubt"

Shark Inlet said...

Interesting facts, Mark.

Presumably you are saying that these are the result of our system being better in some ways than those systems found in other countries.

In short, of those who are insured, the care is often very good.

Three other facts:

The US has a higher infant mortality rate than these other countries (we are discussing here).

The US pays considerably more for healthcare (on a per person basis) than these other countries.

Individuals in socialized medicine programs in the US (Medicare, VA) are far more satisfied with their care than are individuals with private insurance which costs more.


Are you saying, Mark, that you feel we are better off with the most expensive care in the world, where some are covered very very well but many are not covered at all and that those who are covered can be denied treatment and future coverage once sick?

Sewertoons said...

As for, "Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K," I wonder if that tally averaged in the thousands that wait in emergency rooms for care on non-emergency illnesses, but have to go there and wait as they have no health insurance at all?

Watershed Mark said...

Finally, a sewer thread breaks into a discussion about something else!

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

As long as you've moved the healthcare discussion here ...

Since you're "Mister Evidence Boy", and since you are promoting tort reform ... what non-statistical (after all, you don't believe in statistics) evidence do you have that tort reform saves money? Are costs lower in states with strong tort reform than in states with none?

Unless you've got evidence to prove your contention that tort reform ("stat") would actually lower costs, it would seem that your insistence may be at least partially misguided.



Finally, when you write "Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed." it might be misleading because, after all, folks in the US with no government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. I guess that I would want to see data that justifies calling this statement a "fact" because every survey I've seen or heard of on this topic says exactly the opposite.

So "Mister Link" ... where is the evidence?

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,

You seem to think, for your own rhetorical and misguided purpose, that I posted the "Facts" above.

Fact: I didn't.

It was you who steered off course as usual:

“Mark,

You never told us ... is Obama black or is he white? Please tell us the truth because we can't figure anything out here in SLO County without the help of people from other states. Heck, we're so dumb...
11:43 AM, September 09, 2009”

I then replied:

Steve,
I'm still trying to figure out why our POTUS won't show us his birth certificate.
I wouldn't be so hard on myself if I were you. I would back off on the rhetoric though. I never proclaimed expert status though I appreciate you saying so.

Then "we" got into a "razor sharp" exchange about:

"The Obama campaign has provided at The Ticket's request what it says is a copy of the Illinois senator's official birth certificate, reproduced here.."

Then finally I said:
Finally, a sewer thread breaks into a discussion about something else!

4:56 PM, September 10, 2009

So Mister "I don't have any friends because no one will actually engage me in real life" Boy where is your evidence that "I" moved "the healthcare discussion here? Hmmmmmmmm? :)

I love LO and "the razor" sharp debate even as some attempt to stymie it. That hasn't worked yet in the good ol' USA and it won’t work now.

Aaron said...

Mark,

You can say that you're debating, but you're not. You're spamming, repeating the same talking points over and over again, being disrespectful to those in the conversation while disrupting the flow of the conversation.

And the list keeps going on and on.

There are consequences. You have the freedom to express your opinion, but you don't have the right to stymie everyone else's by repeating your own needlessly.

Watershed Mark said...

Ann,
Please accept my apologies in advance for the exchange regarding "the razor" here.
It appears my discussion is a little too sharp for Aaron and his "by invitation only" blog, he needs your land in order to issue his pronouncements to me, which is sad given he could have written what he wrote here as a warning about “his” policy. A self proclaimed editor of a paper who uses someone else’s “paper” to discuss his paper is laughable.

I hope he will let it go as I already did, save my response below.

Aaron,

Perhaps when you grow up and out of your parents nest you will then actually live in the real world with real consequences.
If you ever have privilege of having children, you will understand the need for repetition.
Good luck!

Watershed Mark said...

Aaron,

Perhaps when you grow up and out of your parents nest you will then actually live in the real world with real consequences.
If you ever have the privilege of having children, you will understand the need for repetition.
Good luck!


Pesky typos...

FOGSWAMP said...

Mark & Shark

Sorry, it was me that mis-blogged.

Must have been the dirty grey-goose vodka martini with two olives...hick ...or was it two martinis' with one olive!!!

Watershed Mark said...

Good on you FOGSWAMP!

Every man is more than just himself; he also represents the unique, the very special and always significant and remarkable point at which the world's phenomena intersect, only once in this way, and never again.
Hermann Hesse

Sewertoons said...

wsm, I'm glad one more citizen of Los Osos has called you out on your spamming, disrespect - and I will add to the list - boorishness. How dare you whine about it over here. But then, what else would we expect?

Go hawk your wares to another town. It should be clear that we are not receptive by now. To keep hammering away here makes you look like a bully and a very slow learner.

PS Aaron did not discuss his "paper" here (it's a blog), he discussed YOU. If you have really "let it go" you will not respond on this topic anymore.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

Why do you lie?

Shark Inlet said...

Okay ... my bad for overlooking the fact that the new content wasn't from the most frequent poster here.


Mark, whether you view Aaron's comments as on the mark (as I did ... haha) or not, you should know your response to him was both uncalled for and needlessly rude. He was very measured in his criticisms of your behavior. You were not.

I also think it telling the way you write about repetition being necessary for communication with children. It seems as if you feel that you are the parent and that we need people telling us the same thing over and over and over ... often twice or maybe even three times in four inches on the screen.

Nope Aaron is right when he says that you're not following typical adult discussion behavior. If you want to have more of an impact in online conversations you might be wise to grow up and treat people with more respect.


Lastly ... when I asked about the question of whether tort reform would actually make any different on the health care cost question you didn't answer. I would appreciate a serious, honest and on-topic answer.

Watershed Mark said...

The Razor, which is the new blog replacing this one, is now online.

Set your bookmarks to http://www.rockofthecoast.com/razor

I'm making some more adjustments but it's now completely functional.


Sorry to be such a stickler but accuracy counts in my book.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
If I have you outside your comfort zone than I am hitting my mark.


Ochs currently resides in Los Osos with family.

We have plenty of time to discuss "Jackpot Justice" and the media is beginning to get the Congress tuned in.
Let's let it play out a little more. I think you will e seeing my prescription as previously pronounced more pronounced.

Facts are stubborn things, no matter they may make you feel.

Watershed Mark said...

Facts are stubborn things, no matter how they may make you feel.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

If you are outside the politeness zone, you are not hitting the mark.

The problem is not where Aaron lives but your tone.


Let's try the question another way ...

Mark, what makes you believe that tort reform will have any ability to reign in health care costs which have outpaced inflation for some time now?

Why do Republicans support Tort reform as a solution?

Why should anyone view Tort reform as a good way of controlling costs?


You've tossed it out there as a solution as have many Republicans. Why?

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
If I have you outside your comfort zone then I am hitting my mark.

Questions can be statements especially when they remain unaddressed?

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
Hang in there.
Your interest in the trial lawyer reformation will get teased out if those who want health care reform are truthful and transparent as they once sold themselves.

Try to stay on point "Sewer Myth Busted & A Sewer, Almost" if you can. Don't be rude.

It was cute of you the way in which you tried to cover up you lack of reading comprehension about who posted what and when.

Sewertoons said...

wsm said:
"I hope he will let it go as I already did, save my response below."

Liar.

Watershed Mark said...

Actually sorry, I forgot his last name Lynett,

I simply responded to your comment:

"PS Aaron did not discuss his "paper" here (it's a blog), he discussed YOU."

and to Steve's comment:

..." your response to him was both uncalled for and needlessly rude. He was very measured in his criticisms of your behavior. You were not."

Keep digging and while you are at it would you please tell us "why you lie?"

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,


If you feel that your goal is being rude to others, you are hitting your mark. No worries, though, I am not surprised by your statements nor do they make me feel uncomfortable. I am trying to suggest that you should feel uncomfortable about your style.


Your nonresponse on the tort reform question speaks volumes. The statement you made is that you don't have evidence that justifies your claims about tort reform being helpful to limit costs.

That others should have evidence to back up their viewpoints when you appear to be relying on feeling and belief and not evidence.

Seriously ... did no Republicans even looked at the cost of health care across different states to see if states with tort reform have lower costs than states without? Don't you think it irresponsible to promote a solution without study first? Don't you think it irresponsible to not provide data or research or reasons for a solution being offered?


As to the question of the topic having been moved over here and my continuing to post here on the topic ... it was not me. Even so, it seems that the conversation has quite a few additional comments on the new topic and I am focused on those. If I were to try to put additional comments in response to Foggy or you in another location, the lack of context would make the comments less worthwhile.

Somehow I suspect that Ann wouldn't mind, but if she does, she can let me know.

(Funnily enough, you've done yourself what you are criticizing me for .... have you changed your mind or are you just trying to criticize me?)


And, when you write: "It was cute of you the way in which you tried to cover up you lack of reading comprehension about who posted what and when." you are wrong. Didn't you catch my admitting a mistake and apology? I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough. I goofed. I messed up. My mistake. No cover up, my friend ... full admission.

Churadogs said...

Inlet sez:"Lastly ... when I asked about the question of whether tort reform would actually make any different on the health care cost question you didn't answer. I would appreciate a serious, honest and on-topic answer."

I think most neutral studies agree that legal costs account for about 10% of the overall medical costs, so tort reform, even major, humongous reform, would only reduce costs by less than 10%.

And sez:"Why do Republicans support Tort reform as a solution?

Why should anyone view Tort reform as a good way of controlling costs?"

The reason tort reform is so beloved by Repulicans and some Democrats, especially those shilling for big Pharma or the insurance companies & AMA lobbies, & etc. is that those companies don't like getting sued for selling bad drugs that kill people, or paying out for bad doctors and hospitals when they kill or injur people or (i.e. MRSA deaths spread due to lack of proper hygiene protocols) and etc. "Frivolous" lawsuits are a small percentage of the total, so that's a red herring.

However, if we really want to get costs down and not just stop holding insurance companies accountable for bad practices, some sort of reform would help, like "no fault" insurance, so when Drs. make genuine mistakes (as opposed to incompetence) or when shit happens,(which it always can do inmedicine) there should be ways to acknowledge the harm and mediate it or fix it or help the injured person get their life back & etc. Medicine is an art and bad stuff happens despite being the best of doctors, so we really need both to educate people to that fact and set up some kind of "no fault, we'll make it right" type of system. Interestingly, many medical malpractice lawsuits are dropped and/or mediated when the Dr. admits the mistake, apologizes and works with the patient or family to make it as right as possible. It's the "defensive" nature of our law system that escalates these things out of the ball park. We need a kinder, gentler, solution-based medical insurance system as part of any kind of tort reform -- fix the geunine screwups and fix the problems that led to the screwups and yet still punish and eliminate the bad apples.

Shark Inlet said...

I would contend that healthcare costs aren't significantly different in states with tort reform than in states without (after controlling for age, race, income and the medicare and medicaid reimbursement rates).

In short, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that any properly done study will not show tort reform to be an effective way of controlling costs.

I'll still support it, but not as a solution to any cost-related problem.

Furthermore, if someone such as Mark really wants all options to be explored (you know, with sewers) so that way the public can choose what is really best for them, why doesn't he want health care options to be provided to those who might now be being gouged by their insurance companies? In short, without a public option, there will be little incentive (yet another good conservative word) to have reasonable costs. If people still want cadillac policies, they can buy them ... but no one should be deprived of basic preventative care and basic care. The financial benefits of having lower amounts spent on health care will be more profound than the benefits of any tax cut.

Sewertoons said...

Maybe wsm only wants to explore all options if he stands a chance to make a buck for himself?

M said...

sharkinlet, could you explain this statement? "In short, are you so wealthy that you don't care what it costs you and so selfish that you don't care what it costs us ... or are you in favor of limiting information to those who are being asked to pay the bill?".
Does the 'us' include you?
Sincerely, M

FOGSWAMP said...

Shark

If "Tort Reform" is such a bad idea why is Hawaii "attempting it" after 30 years of Democratic rule to straighten out the sorry mess their healthcare system is in today?

Their so-called tort reform legislation, which has been introduced in Hawaii every year since 1980 and finally HB1784 just passed the House and now bogged down in the Senate, but moving forward with caps limiting noneconomic damages to $250,000.00etc.

The battle of Democratic Doctor vs Republican Lawyer, both calling the other greedy, has resulted in doctors believing they are practicing in a hostile enviroment in Hawaii.

One can hardly blame the doctors for ordering every test known to cover their arses when you consider they probably spent 10-11years of their lives and around $300,000.00 to get that license.

According to Pricewaterhouse this adds some 5% to 9% to the medical bill over & above the litigation costs, however small you want to quote them.

What happened in Hawaii when doctors malpractice insurance costs went up to around $100,000.00 or so, is that they started scaling back their practices, taking on fewer patients or leaving the islands.

Hawaiian lawyers claim the exodus of doctors from Hawaii is mostly anecdotal (maybe they just went fishing).

With respect to lawsuits, there were 55 medical malpractice suits filed in 2003, this dropped to 44 in 2007. according to Hawaii Judiciary.
(So why the increased premiums??)

Whomever you want to blame for the shortage of doctors in Hawaii you got to believe practicing in that enviroment of fear doesn't help anybody, especially not the patient.

Common sense tells you that if you can't find a bone setter on the Big Island or Maui and have to somehow get to Honolulu, there is in fact a doctor shortage. Just ask the poor fellow from Maui that lost his foot after a motorcycle acccident because it took him 8 hours to get to Queen's in Honolulu. Another young man from Maui broke his leg and couldn't get to Hoholulu fast enough and lost that leg.

Queen's emergency room has only two orthopedists on-call; it used to have more than 20. Kahuku Hospital stopped delivering babies, also Wahiawa General Hospital and Hawaii Medical Center West as well.

Now one shouldn't need a certificate from any diploma factory to determine that there is in fact a doctor shortage in Hawaii,eh?

Some believe Tort Reform will lure more physicians back to Hawaii.

I have a cottage on the Big Island and experienced the long wait for a doctor first hand. I thought I was back in Canada for amoment.

Shark Inlet said...

M,

As we've discussed before, my neighborhood will likely be tying into the community sewer.

Shark Inlet said...

Foggy,

I don't believe that tort reform is a bad idea at all. I just believe that it has become the catch-all answer by Republicans when discussing health care costs.

If it really were effective, the data would show it. Where is the study which shows costs are lower after tort reform is implemented and costs are lower in states with than in states without?


As for 55 versus 44 malpractice suits, that could easily happen by luck alone (details if someone asks).


There are other reasons besides fear of lawsuits which impacts a MDs choice of residence.

Shark Inlet said...

Foggy,

I don't believe that tort reform is a bad idea at all. I just believe that it has become the catch-all answer by Republicans when discussing health care costs.

If it really were effective, the data would show it. Where is the study which shows costs are lower after tort reform is implemented and costs are lower in states with than in states without?


As for 55 versus 44 malpractice suits, that could easily happen by luck alone (details if someone asks).


There are other reasons besides fear of lawsuits which impacts a MDs choice of residence.

FOGSWAMP said...

Shark

Ya, right -- they all left Hawaii for "other reasons". Tell that to the folk that lost their limbs.

Seems that your Democratic friends in Hawaii have a better grip on reality than you have.

In order to keep malpractice cost in check in 1978 the Canadian Supreme Court limited damages for pain and suffering. Adjusted for inflation, the cap now is just over $300,000.00.

Instead of buying insurance from a for-profit company, as most U.S. doctors do, they are covered through their membership in the nonprofit "Canadian Medical Protective Association".

Membership fees vary only by the type of work and region of the country. In Ontario for example all neurosurgeons pay the same amount regardless of how many times each may have been hit with a claim.

Also, the association provides legal counsel for doctors who are sued and pays the damages, no matter how much.

The Canadian doctors malpractice insurance costs are strikingly lower than in the U.S.A.

For neurosurgeons in Miami, the annual cost is astronomical @ $237,000!!(Florida Orthopedic Society)

In Toronto, Ontario, a neurosurgeon pays about $29,200 for coverage. It's even less in Montreal, Quebec @ $20,600 and in Vancouver, British Columbia its $10,650.(Canadian Medical Protective Association)

In 2007, Canadian doctors were hit with 928 legal actions, a 17 percent drop from 2003. Only about 100 go to trial.

Of the cases tried in 2007, judgements went in the patients favor 25 times and in the doctors favor 70 times.

The Canadian median amount of damages paid was about $91,000 in 2007 vs $326,000 (2008) in the U.S., the smallest in a decade according to the federal National Practitioner Data Bank.

Defensive medical practice costs are huge in America. Perhaps we can learn something from the Canadian system, even though it is not yet perfect.

Churadogs said...

Fogswamp sez:"Whomever you want to blame for the shortage of doctors in Hawaii you got to believe practicing in that enviroment of fear doesn't help anybody, especially not the patient."

That's the problem with how we've set up our system -- adversarial. What would happen if we had a type of no-fault insurance, with serious efforts made to clean up both hospital practices and weed out genuinely bad doctors? (Hospitals that institute the protocls to reduce infections -- simple things like requiring hand washing, & etc) reduce their death from infection rates dramatically. That's a pretty simple "cure" that can be done right now) And a no-fault system that focused on making things right, and mitigating any damage done.

Fogswamp also sez:"Defensive medical practice costs are huge in America. Perhaps we can learn something from the Canadian system, even though it is not yet perfect."

We could learn a LOT from other countries. The question is, are we serious about "reform" or just want to put lipstick on the same old pig and call it a duck?

M said...

shark, could you give a brief explanation of how your neighborhood tying into the community sewer will work? I thought the sewer was just for the prohibition zone. How is the costs to be implemented?
Thanks
Sincerely, M

Shark Inlet said...

M,

Down the road our neighborhood will need to vote (as a whole) whether we'll choose to tie in or not. Word on the street is that most are in favor even though it is more than what we're currently paying because of the liability of running our own plant and because eventually, the cost of running our own plant will be higher than the cost (whatever that might be) of the community system.

The cost for us of tying in will be the same as the cost of those neighborhoods with community septic ... plus the cost of decommissioning our own plant plus any additional costs deemed necessary by the County. Last we heard, it would run us about the same as most in the PZ (higher than Vista de Oro) because if our neighborhood ties in, we'll need to pay for the extension of the purple pipe to Sea Pines to dispose of the treated wastewater there. That, however, is still not fully resolved.

In short, if we tie in (and that seems very likely), we'll be paying about what everyone else is paying.

M said...

Thanks for your response sharkinlet. If it seems likely that others will be tying into whatever system built, why is that not part of the equation now? Or is it? It doesn't appear as though you were part of the 218 assessment.
Sincerely, M

Shark Inlet said...

M,

I know of no other areas which are possibly going to tie into the community sewer. Certainly, in our case, because we were in the PZ, we were sent assessment ballots, but because were already had a sewage treatment plant, the benefit portion (the weight given to my ballot) was zero.

FOGSWAMP said...

Churadogs said ir right, we've set up an "adversarial" system, doctor v/s lawyer. The big looser is the poor patient in need of affordable care.

Adam Smith, Theory of Moral Sentiments comes to mind.

"The man of system....If those two principles coincide and act in the same direction, the game of human society will go on easily and harmoniously, and is very likely to be happy and successful. If they are opposite or different, the game will go on miserably, and the society must be at all times in the highest degree of disordr".

Mike said...

Ann says: "(Hospitals that institute the protocls to reduce infections -- simple things like requiring hand washing, & etc) reduce their death from infection rates dramatically."

Are you making this crap up Ann...??? What hospital in the USA does NOT require handwashing by everyone who touches a patient...?????

If the ambulance chasing lawyers were disbarred, don't you think that hospital costs would go down...???

Eliminate the "malpractice" lawsuits and the need for malpractice insurance by competent Doctors and medical cost would go down...

If you want a medical system to work, then set up a fair grading system and eliminate the AMA protection racket... Some doctors should not be allowed to practice surgery... just like some lawyers should not be allowed to do more than fill-in divorce papers...

FOGSWAMP said...

Shark

Are you watching CNBC House of Cards?

Wall Street and E cono mists in Denial!!!

Shark Inlet said...

Haven't seen it yet ... thanks for the "head's up."

Not2010Yet said...

So, we've drifted a bit. Back on the WWTF issue: Anybody know if Patterson is going to turn on his Planning Commissioner who dumped this whole thing open again to the likes of Keith? Do we have three BOS votes for what Los Osos taxed itself for, or did we agree to a fortune in assessments and then Christie gets to dump and re-hijack our entire process? I swear, if we get a hijacked or STEP result, I'll move and I hope the sale is productive so I can chunk stunning money on whomever is running against Patterson. Idiots like Christie are a dime a dozen in appointed office in our state, but Patterson owed us the duty to restrain her. When I spoke to him, he proudly proclaimed that he was "proud of the job" which she had done. This whole PC thing was an absolute betrayal of how far this whipped and beaten community has come in hoping/trusting/asking/assessing that sensible conventional county heads like Ogren would get us a WWTP without the screwball ideas, without the people who think Ogren has a conflict of interest because he once worked for somebody. I swear those critics probably think Ogren sleeps with previous lady friends because he can't be trusted to focus solely on his current interests and loyalties.

Christie's husband is a tree-hugger; darn this is one screwed up situation. Well, never mind, nobody is going to change the outcome to please me and I accept that, but I hereby promise to do my level best to change the outcome of Patterson's re-election campaign if Christie's hijack job retains any traction at BOS vote time and significantly alters or dooms what I/we the sane majority of L.O. was/were expecting.

Churadogs said...

Mike sez:"Are you making this crap up Ann...??? What hospital in the USA does NOT require handwashing by everyone who touches a patient...?????"

Nope, not making anything up. Hospitals that institute formal, tracked, serious protocols regarding MRSA containiment & etc.drop their infection rate dramatically. You would be amazed at how sloppy most hospitals and doctors and nurses and houskeeping employees are. It's not an evil plot, it's simply human nature. Get busy, get rushed, forget. It takes a formal committment from the top, a clearly set up official program and protocols and constant tracking and both carrots and accountability sticks. But it works. Hospitals that have instituted such programs see their inhospital infections drop dramatically. That's something that can be done now with very little cost or effort and the benefits are dramatic.

FOGSWAMP said...

Mike said:

Eliminate "malpractice" lawsuits ........ medical costs would go down.

Good point, but I don't believe we'll ever "eliminate" them altogether.

We can in fact control and lower the cost of doing business for U.S. Doctors as the Canadians are doing with a "Non Profit" public owned insurance company. Canadian Doctors pay less than one-tenth
of US costs for same coverage.

One of biggest obstacle to Tort Reform in America, aside from the fact that Obama took 45 plus million from Trial Lawyers for his campaign and slammed the door in the face of Doctors at a recent meeting with them as they begged, is the make-up of the U.S. Congress.

The 109th U.S. Congress was made up of 435 Reps and 100 Senators.
This fine group consisted of 228 with Law degrees and 219 whose former occupation was in Law!!

Granted they write U.S. Law but the decks are stacked against any balance to reform and restraint to keep Lawyers from beating up on Doctors. So the fight will go on and on and on.

It will be a cold day in hell when doctors get any relief from that group one would think.

Mike said...

I fully agree Foggy... but that is where the real potential for Cost Reduction lays... I notice Ann seems to think some over-documenting of hand washing is more likely to reduce costs than legal reform... but I think we know where her priorities are... jsut sue, sue and sue, followed by a few rounds of appeals...

Churadogs said...

Mike, you need to go to www.premieric.com regarding "adverse patient events" in hospitals -- 44,000 - 98,000 A YEAR many caused by sloppy infection protocols. And, as usual you misread my point. Do you really DO have a context and subtext problem, or do you do that deliberately so you can make stuff up? It really does make you a totally unreliable (and comic) poster, that's for sure.

Mike said...

Good Morning Ann... I DO read YOU... However, you beat around the bush and do not recognize how one-sided you are... You seem to only comprehend what you want to and never look at the other possible sides... Yes, hospitals have problems (try getting AMA to take a license from an incompetent doctor), but in general, most of "COSTS" could be reduced greatly by removing the vulture lawyers and liberal judges from the equation... You seem ready to sue, so i suspect you will continue to disagree as you just might be part of the problem....

FOGSWAMP said...

Not2010Yet states " If we get a hijacked or a STEP result, I'll move...."

I'm confused, if you lived in Los Osos in 1999 when the "Solutions Group" advanced the plan with STEP/STEG and the community voted with an 87% approval mandate for same, why didn't you move then? Why now?

Sewertoons said...

Did anyone have any idea what that really MEANT at that time? We're much more knowledgeable by now!

Hey - even the Solutions Group gave up on it when they realized the difficulty of doing it.

Sewertoons said...

And I should have added EXPENSE of doing it!

FOGSWAMP said...

Sewertoons

You're sure right, the "Solutions Group" had no idea what they were getting into until a few months after the election when they were "enlightened" by the Water Board.

With respect to "Expense of doing it". Perhaps you can "enlighten" me and the good folk of Los Osos what the cost of STEP vs Gravity or Vacuum is.

As you know we were promised the aforementioned comparisons but I don't think it happened, did it?

Aaron said...

The Solutions Group didn't do "it" right.

Sewertoons said...

FOGSWAMP, the Solutions Group admitted that STEP wouldn't work - the "cost savings" were tied to only partially sewering community (the RWQCB said no) and keeping the old tanks (very few new ones even are water tight). The SG moved on, and didn't keep insisting that their plan would work in spite of the facts showing it wouldn't.

We were given the comparisons up to the point it was shown neither of those systems (STEP & vacuum) would work. The biggest fault is the legal issue of easements. Step and vacuum both require them. Vacuum does not have the lift needed to work on the hills without additional pump stations killing the cost savings. The salesman lied as to its viability by misleading us with incorrect elevation numbers. Why does answering this question never stick? Why are salesmen's opinions valued over engineers? Also, low-pressure or vacuum WILL be used in low-lying areas around the bay where these systems make sense to use them.

Want to know my opinion? I think people just couldn't get over the loss of step and ponds. The County "got" that and tried to lead the community to an understanding of why they won't work. I think that they could have done a more thorough job, but I still think they did good enough. Not everyone paid attention to the points the County brought up and a certain number of people just want to fight the County. If the County was proposing STEP right now, you would hear those same people protesting that, or some other non-starter issue to cause delays.

The County can only compare project costs, not the true cost of impacts to your own personal property. Me? I don't want a portion of my property off limits if I want to build a patio or plant a tree. I don't want the stench and expense of pumping every 2-5 years so the integrity of the tank can be checked. You hear a lot of protests to gravity over leakage, but Terry Bounds - an Orenco person in 2004 - (not sure if he is now) wrote a paper with some others on the leakiness of most step tanks. To make step tanks drive-worthy - say you had a 25' lot and you wanted to continue to use your garage, you would need to buy 2 tanks - an inner fiberglass to hold the septage and a concrete outer tank to keep it from being crushed. Why? Fiberglass cannot take the weight of a car and concrete tanks seep water out and suck water in.

Mike said...

'toons is absolutely correct with respect to having the Step tank on your property...

...but then another grand "idea" was to put the tank in the road right-of-way... Take what 'toons has just explained and build a tank that will withstand a fully loaded fire truck rolling over it... That tank has to become a very large and strong vault...

Underground telephone and electric vaults, which are not sealed watertight, in the roadway are designed to take the traffic weight, but are relatively small compared to even a small Step tank... and by the time enough tanks would be put in the road way for just one neighborhood block and lets not forget all the "small" piping, the entire street would have been excavated, to what...some 20 feet deep...??? maybe more...??? We never did get any tank dimensions out of the wrecklamator snakeoil salesmen... Don Beardon bought a small tank and everyone thought it was huge...nope, just an average version of what each and every house would have to install and at the home owners personal expense...

Try putting that in the street and then harden it so a loaded fire truck could sit on top without collapsing the top of the tank... better plan on building it big and strong...

If you want an estimate of total project cost, you try to figure out how many tanks would be needed on property.. how about saying 4500 just for the PZ and then estimate the cost to remove or demo your old leaky septic tank... estimate the installation cost now of the new tank with electric power and alarm circuitry, and don't forget the cost of re-landscaping, rebuilding patio and or driveway... leave an opening for the 2 to 5 year pumping and 24/7 access on your property for the utility company or CSD right-of-way for the emergency guy incase the system fails... Those are NOT cost that fall in the County's Planning, those would be ours if Step were require at each house...

...and putting the tanks in the street would be an even greater cost... start with engineering the size tank to support how many houses in a block... figure out how many any where to put those tiny vacuum lines...remember, there are already other water and gas lines and wires underground... need to plan for storm drainage pipes also, their coming... remember those ugly PG&E and telephone wires...??? may want to plan on putting them underground also... Pretty soon, the street is a bit small... and there are legal clearances to be maintained between all those wires and pipes... Oh, don't lose sight of how we can't possibly have a leaky Step tank and pipe, so we may have to weld and double wall the tank and pipes... and don't forget that fire truck... or pumper truck or garbage truck or the UPS guy... Lots to plan for...

Maybe a gravity pipe in the street isn't such a bad idea after all... and it's a whole lot less costly to install and maintain...

FOGSWAMP said...

Ya ya haven't we heard all these strawmman arguments a zillion times ie ....can't do it out of town .... can't cross a creek ... can't be done .... can't give estimates .....etc.

All this BS caused a "Perfect Storm" by the Pollutions Group in 1998.

Mike said...

Well Foggybottom... Let's hear YOUR Plan and cost estimate... or are you one of those with tin foil hats and the magic sand theory...

Sewertoons said...

So FOGSWAMP, were you in favor of the County's plan prior to the Solutions Group? Are you mad that it was derailed?

Not2010Yet said...

Fogswamp, you shouldn't be "confused" that I lived here in 1999, I didn't and I never said I did. I bought here ONLY after the first assessment was paid on the property, the project was permitted, funded, and had survived endless lawsuits and was ready to go. A very workable project that didn't please everybody, which describes most all community wastewater collection and treatment schemes, was set to go and my sig. other wanted to live here, I had lots of other choices but was delighted to yield. This little garden spot turned upside down into a nightmare at the hands of five incredible irresponsible egomaniac self-assured excuses for public agency directors. I had no idea that such blind, arrogant, unprepared and stupid Department of Transportation morons would win an election by a hair and plunge or re-plunge the community they were elected to protect into a disaster which they lied about, mishandled, and botched to an extent almost unheard of in California local government politics.

Directors Tacker, Shicker, Cesena, Fouche and the confused guy can hang their heads in shame for life, if they were not in WORLD CLASS denial, having boldly willfully and intentionally and inadvisedly set this community back years and millions. The year, for your benefit Smogfwamp or whatever your screen name is, was 2004. I deeply rue the decision to buy here, deeply. I know grammatically it's rue deeply but you get the drift. Fogswamp if you have nothing but flak and junk to toss out here, lttle snipes of a post now and then, not substantive information, opinion or observation, just sit quietly please and let the adults post here. Well, oops, I mean the RATIONAL adults; I figure you and Franc4 are all adults by chronological years.

word verification: cataclysm

Sewertoons said...

Here is an interesting tid-bit:

SOUTH BEND, Ind. - A former sewage treatment plant manager has been sentenced to one year in prison for falsifying documents to hide elevated pollution discharges into a northern Indiana waterway.

Herbert L. Corn was sentenced Tuesday in federal court in South Bend. The former Rochester wastewater treatment plant superintendent pleaded guilty in June to five felony counts for making false statements in water discharge reports sent to Indiana officials.

Federal prosecutors say Corn falsified portions of as many as 55 water discharge reports between September 2004 and May 2007. The 64-year-old Corn used those reports to conceal elevated ammonia, E. coli and other discharges into a tributary of the Tippecanoe River.

Corn worked at the Rochester plant for 22 years, from 1986 to 2008.

Guess he should have worked in California.

Aaron said...

The rhetoric has been elevated I see.

I'm going to modify Not2010Yet's statements a tiny bit.

Whether or not the project was fully permitted and funded (it wasn't really since the district had no dedicated source of revenue), the project had significant social infeasibility. It really wasn't the case of, "Some people didn't like where the project was heading," quite a few people did not want the project at that location.

The push to move that project forward came from people who spent a lot of time and community resources during the Solutions Group era to illogically present a project that would only cost $38/month. Credibility from that camp was a little scarce -- and that was understandable. They couldn't get their act together and make a good presentation for STEP/STEG so they went with MWH to go with a system that ended up being accepted by an overbid that the recalled board accepted.

People are quick to say, "The new board lied and was deceitful," but they never come clean with their faults. Looking at how the recalled board conducted business, the district was definitely headed into a downward spiral of fiscal recklessness.

What we're seeing here is similar to politics on a federal level. Obama inherited this massive debt so there's been this incredible amount of scrutiny and responsibility that he acquired. The "tea party" protesters from 9/12 didn't talk about Bush. They weren't protesting when Bush signed all these spending bills into law. They admit no fault for their own party's shortcomings.

Los Osos is no different.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette & MIKE little mouse,

Your attempt at explaining the shortcomings of vacuum over gravity isn't accurate and does not explain why the county never studied vaccuum collection during its $7MM study of "alternatives."

The record is so very clear, while your statements are not.

It's going to be so very much fun helping their process play out...

FOGSWAMP,
Some simple questions cause many to feel the weight of bad judgment as many are watching closely.

Watershed Mark said...

ACORN is no different.

Mike said...

Aaron, you are in over your head... you seem to grossly underestimate what it took to fully permit that Tri-W project and you certainly are not knowledgeable of the funding being developed until Lisa and Julie got on the board... You can blame those 2 for setting LO up for the disaster we have today... They both have lied and hidden the funding they poured out to their "SOLE SOURCED" lawyers... just ask Lisa how they "picked" Al's lawyers.... they sure didn't go out for competitive bids there...!!!! and it is pure hypocracy for Lisa to be moaning about how the County is proceeding today...!!! We could go on and on about the incompetentcy of Lisa and Julie, but Not2010Yet has really grasped the situation... but again Aaron, you are much alined with Ann Calhoun in your myopic one-sided view... You really can't handle the fact that there are many of us who disagree with the whole "move the sewer" obstructionism...

Sewertoons said...

You could compare the Solutions Group to The Lisa/Julie bunch. They both had this "idea" and the "idea" didn't work.

AND THAT IS WHERE THE COMPARISON ENDS.

The Solutions Group got their act together and found a project that met all regulatory requirements, fought innumerable lawsuits and started to build it. The Lisa/Julie bunch never had a project, caused innumerable lawsuits, defaulted on the SRF loan and bankrupted the CSD.

Here you have incompetence as the "gift" that keeps on giving. There is a bankruptcy with millions of debt to somehow pay off. We continue to pay for the old project and it looks like we'll be waiting some time to get a new one and start paying on that. Meanwhile, one aquifer spills its dirty water into the bay and the other one decreases its potable water daily.

Sewertoons said...

Oh Aaron, really - "it wasn't really (funded) since the district had no dedicated source of revenue"

The fees and charges were going to pay it off! C'mon, this has been explained innumerable times.

Sewertoons said...

The project had, "significant social infeasibility?"

It didn't until the rabble rousers got everyone upset. You might say it lacked a bargain basement price tag, but all the lawsuits caused the price to go up and up and up, and the threats to men and equipment kept the bids high. Who'd want to work around a bunch of crazies?

Time is the biggest enemy to cost. Think this new one out of town will be cheaper? I mean after the lawsuits?

Sewertoons said...

Aaron, there is NO GOOD PRESENTATION for S/S. We certainly haven't seen it to date for Los Osos.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot hid last nsme Lynette,

The bigest enemy to cost is selection of technology.
What don't you understand about why the county did not study vacuum?
Why do you lie?

Use of better technology is smart, while employing old technology is dumb, leaky and expensive.

AB32 must be considered and so far as I read it has not.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name
Lynette,

Why do you lie?

Watershed Mark said...

The biggest enemy to cost is selection of technology.

A government that stands to profit from selection of a more expensive choice is unseemly.

Watershed Mark said...

Synonyms, Thesaurus & Antonyms of 'unseemly'


1. (adj) indecent, indecorous, unbecoming, uncomely, unseemly, untoward
not in keeping with accepted standards of what is right or proper in polite society
Synonyms: indelicate, indecorous, inauspicious, untoward, unbecoming, indecent, uncomely, unseemly, adverse
Antonyms: proper

Watershed Mark said...

Why was no "proper" study of vacuum collection done by the agency who will "decide" on:
a- whether or not to "take" the project?
b- prematurely ssued an RFQ in a "Design/Build" project that clearly delinated gravity?

Watershed Mark said...

"is sued"

Watershed Mark said...

Why was no "proper" study of vacuum collection done by the agency who:
a- will "decide" on whether or not to "take" the project?
b- prematurely issued an RFQ in a "Design/Build" project that clearly delineated gravity?

Mike said...

Hey Mark... Please post your response to your "question" from Paavo....

Have you moved to SLO County yet... or are you simply an out-of-state agitator who got his feelings hurt... or should we say that no one of authority in SLO County will buy any of your products or services....!!!! You lost....!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

I am an American with relevant questions about a government which did not study alternatives.

Here is the response from Paavo "if there is a technology that is signifcantly less expensive then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away" Ogren:








On another note sorry I forgot his last name Lynette, the county already has more than enough easement at the front of everyone's property to install vaccum which means it doesn't need to be installed in the street.

Please tell us why you lie?

Aaron said...

I was comparing the Solutions Group to the recalled board, NOT the Lisa/Julie board. Work on your reading comprehension, my dear.

Facts are the facts.

Mike said...

Sorry Mark... as OUR President recently said and applies directly to YOU... "He's a jackass"... It fit's you to a tee mark...

I do suspect you were sent a reply... so in your own over worked words Mark.... "Why do you lie?"

Mike said...

So Mark... still can't find a job..??

Why do you lie?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

There is no reply.

Why do you suppose sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette lie?

Watershed Mark said...

Why do you suppose sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette lied?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

Are you retarded, retired or just tired?

Mike said...

Mark... still beating your wife?

Why do you lie?

Mike said...

Mark, you are very much like the little kid asking why,why,why,why incessantly... You lost...go find a job selling ties on the corner or something similar that you must be underqualified for...

Mike said...

Mark... still beating your kids?

Why do you lie?

Mike said...

Mark... still beating your kids?

Why do you lie?

Mike said...

Mark... Why are you hiding Paavo's response?

Why do you lie?

Sewertoons said...

"the county already has more than enough easement at the front of everyone's property to install vaccum which means it doesn't need to be installed in the street."

wsm obviously has not visited Cuesta-by-the-Sea.

Watershed Mark said...

"Fact": SLOCO never studied vacuum collection during their $7MM study of "alternatives."

I just want "interested parties" to know and understand "why."

It a fairly simple issue that I work on between other tasks MIKE little mouse.

I learned early on that there is no advantage to being angry or emotional in business.
Given your service to our Country, I think you should be able to appreciate that, but maybe not.

Business isn't personal MIKE little mouse, it's just business.
Lying like sorry, I forgot his last name and your attempt to minimize/cover it up is personal. No problem, I can handle that.

BTW, didn't $1MM go to a New Port Beach lobbyist to look for stimulus or other funding?
How is that effort going?

On another, yet similar, note:

ACRON sure took a beating in the House today and the Senate yesterday all because “2” Americans had some questions that “were” answered, MIKE little mouse. I understand why Paavo doesn’t “feel like” addressing “why” he didn’t study vacuum collection during his $7MM study of “alternatives” even as you don’t.

Expose and eliminate corruption-STAT.
Someone has to do it. (Feinstein & Feingold?)

“If you cannot adapt, you are left at a disadvantage.”

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

"Eminent Domain"

Why do YOU lie?

Shark Inlet said...

Here's a novel question (from the point of view of this comment section, anyways) ... why don't you lie?

When one accuses another of lying, the language is so charged that it breaks down the possibility of communication (however, like we see with the good Rep Wilson, it may solidify one's base).

Seriously Mark and Mike ... if you have little else to do but accuse someone else (or multiple others) of lying, why bother?

I seriously believe all involved in the discussion here really want the best for our community (well, er, the community of Los Osos ... some might not live here) and that no one is willingly misrepresenting the facts at all.


To promote a quality discussion, it would be best to describe the positions others advocate in a way that they would feel that their position was accurately represented. To resort to language such as "lie" doesn't help one bit.


And ... considering Joe Wilson has claimed to be an immigration lawyer but does not in any way appear to have experience or training the area, it seems that he and not Obama is misstating the truth. However, I remain open to Wilson producing evidence ... either evidence that he is an immigration lawyer (by any accepted definition) or that Obama's proposal will certainly cover illegals.

Aaron said...

I want what's best for the community, but I think that quite a few people are more concerned about shouting each other down (a la town hall meeting disruptions) than having constructive dialogue -- and unfortunately, I've seen a lot of revisionist history being exchanged back and forth.

I don't like the word "lie" anymore because that's attempting to find the intent to lie when it's easier to say that there are misconceptions and misinformation that has been projected by both sides of the sewer debate.

With that said, I agree with Shark.

Mike said...

I agree fully with you Shark... however Mark with no real property ties to Los Osos has hijacked this blog with absolute prattle... Now, apparently he doesn't like looking in the mirror...

You and I know Paavo replied to Mark, yet we get to see the endless crap continue to flow from that "sales person"... He has got to be the very worst "sales person" ever... he now makes used car sales men sound trustworthy...!!!

FOGSWAMP said...

Not2010Yet

I'm no longer "confused", thanks to you're "cataclysmic" enraged reply to my post.

I apologize for making you so "mad" as you put it.

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift, because we have no sewer bill yet.

So lighten up a bit.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

You lie, Paavo has not replied.
Why does Lynette lie?

Fact: Liars don't help the community and their lies have gotten Los Osos where it is today.

Watershed Mark said...

Oh, MIKE little mouse,

Why wasn't vacuum collection studied?
Too tough for ya?

Watershed Mark said...

Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 3:13 PM

“Thank you for [you] quick and courteous reply! I just wanted to clarify that Mr. Low does represent your company with someone from ECOfluid.
Another local resident claims that a Mr. Dean (sorry, lost his last name) represents your company. So I wanted to identify from whom we were to get our information on your technology.”

Lynette,
It is past time to fess up.
Why do you lie?

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry for writing that "you forgot his last name" when you actually wrote: you lost his last name.