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Friday, June 05, 2009

War of the Words

I was sent the following email, with permission to post, regarding comments made on the comment section of this blog by a not-so-anonymous poster. I’m leaving out the poster’s name (followers of this blog will know just who this email was sent to, plus the “Anonymous” poster herself asked the reader to go back to the May 29th “Field Trip” entry to read her June 2 entry, so she clearly wanted her comments to get a wider readership than just in that particular comment string) because this email points up important points that go beyond personalities and the usual ankle-chewing that goes on in the comment section of this blog.

I have said, repeatedly, that “anonymous” posters have NO credibility. So long as they don’t get too potty-mouthed, or stray too far into smack-out libel, I allow them to post until they have hanged themselves with their own rope. Their anonymous “voice” always comes through.

But, besides the ranters and blatherers, there’s another regular “voice” that appears here. I call them the Holy Supplicants. For these people, there’s a carefully crafted mantra of misinformation, wrong “facts,” misrepresented “facts,” and “facts that they just make up on the spot, then repeat over and over and over, like a true believer running their rosary beads. No amount of “setting the record straight” works. Other posters can chime in and state actual, true facts, but like swallows returning to Capistrano, the bead runners will return to the same false mantra. Talk about “staying on message.” Quite remarkable.

I have said before, to tell the real story of The Hideous Sewer Wars, you’d need a volume the size of an Encyclopedia, complete with a separate set of footnotes. For every “fact” you can have 38 sub-sets of “facts” ‘splaining even more “facts.” And that’s not counting alternative interpretations or nuancing of those “facts.”

Add onto that, all the basic tar-baby lies that have dogged this project from day one, the paranoia level engendered thereby, and the sheer complexity of the material, and it’s no wonder things get muddled. However, some of what transpires in the comment section of this blog, isn’t mere confusion or muddlement. For some regular posters, it’s clearly a case of deliberate misinformation. That becomes clear, as mentioned above, when a misstatement is corrected and a short time later, there it pops up again, by the same poster, the lie reappearing as if it had never been corrected.

In a way, it’s all very funny, this Orwellian writing and re-writing of history – Sewerville’s version of the parlor game, “Telephone,” with a hilariously muddled “story” coming out the other end. On the other hand, certain elements of this game aren’t funny at all since The Big Lie can result in real harm to a community – tell it long enough and skillfully enough and loud enough, and all manner of odd things can be pulled off and then buried out of sight, out of mind.

After all, Jake, it’s Chinatown. And The Hideous Sewer Wars have been big enough and lasted long enough to encompass several Chinatowns. Oh, and as for the “anonymous” poster’s final opinion concerning the SLO County Counsel’s report on the complaint about MWH's, uh, oddities, brought to the County by Lisa Schicker, I have said previously and will say again: The law may require officials look at or into something, but the law does NOT require that they see anything. “Seeing,” more often than not, is a matter of practical and/or political expediency. I'm just saying . . .

The email:


I was sent this blog comment that you wrote and posted on Ann's site. I don't read these regularly, and don't blog but I think most can see through your attempt to create a smoke-screen by attacking the messenger. I want you to know that the record exists on issues you continue to misrepresent and state as facts has been corrected publicly several times at this site. Further accusations have been addressed MANY times publicly in print and recorded on video.

Be aware that while free speech on blogs is somewhat protected, you do have some responsibility to avoid continued libelous harassment of me. You also have obligations to correct errors and omissions when you have made slanderous or libelous comments against a private citizen and they are found to be untrue, you must discontinue such comments.

In your posting you are either mistaken, based on your refusal to read and research, or simply a habitual liar.

If you wish information you might consider contacting me other others, read reports and research before you spout off. However, it appears your only goal is personal attacks, and embarrassing displays of your own ignorance of the subject matter in which you engage.

Response:

[“anonymous poster’s” comments in italics]

Another bizarro thing today at the Supes.
Gail McP - convicted of lying - who lost her job and license as a result - stands before the Board and tries to convince them that Paavo and MWH have done something illegal. Like they (or we) should give one moment of credibility to what she says? Did she think we'd forget? She says "laws need to be taken seriously!" Guess she forgot those words apply to herself as well.

I was never convicted of lying, charges against me were modified to NO MORAL TURPITUDE, and then completely dropped, and the DA statements and documentation exonerated me. I never lost my license. (in fact my grade 5 certification it is still active) I was not fired from my job. This is information readily available. I believe you are intentionally libeling/slandering me to assist in a cover up.

She is accusing them of civil and criminal violations that MUST be investigated thoroughly!
· I have a right to review documents supporting the complaint against Paavo, MWH and to provide my opinion in public. (have YOU read the reports and weighted the evidence?)

She - who still has not denied that she stole documents from the CSD office, she - who lied about candidates running for office,
· I have copies of public documents, as do may others including yourself. Every document was legally obtained and they were not stolen.


she - who conned the CSD into paying for her PZLDF suit –

The PZLDF is not my lawsuit. The parties are listed in the complaint. The LOCSD was a voluntary party and the RWQCB placed them as a party in 2006 because Mr Seitz defended the CSD in the ACL on the grounds Measure B shielded the CSD from TSO fines and the CDO was the only means of enforcement. Again, have you read anything at all?

she has the audacity to TELL the Supes what they MUST do.

· Elected representatives are exactly the one we are expected to tell what we-the people (yes, me too) think they must do. Did you go to school and sleep through basic civics classes?
·
If what she says is true - why didn't the Lisa Board file suit against MWH before they went into bankruptcy?
· Huh? ...now I know you haven't bothered to listen or read a thing. @ resolution were passed by the board to send information on the crime to the DA and the AG in 2006 –before the bankruptcy. Blind fools-read the report and other documents filed in 2005 and 2006 following the recall. Lisa reported the crime to law enforcement in 2004-05 when she found the backdated contracts. She has a legal obligation to report.

Goodness knows - they had those two guys upstairs going over contracts with magnifying glasses.

Read the reports the consultants made that support the false claims lawsuit against MWH which the current board majority is frantically working to settle so MWH can actually qualify for the RFP. (The RFP is stalled until this can be ironed out!). That is actually a form of bid rigging itself!

They had box loads of documents in Gail's living room!

Again---- I have copies of public documents, as do many others including yourself. Every document was legally obtained and they were not stolen. Quit lying.

Wanna bet that BWS told them that they didn't have a case?

Again—to the contrary, the DA said the crime occurred. BWS knew they had strong case, BWS was forced out by TW lawsuits for a reason. AB 2701 meant to bury that past contract issue. It would have until MWH became the favorite.

That the contract executed back in 1999 was valid and that it committed the Board to go ahead with it from that time forward?


Can you read….? Are you an expert in contracts? The DA said the contract was illegal. The subsequent one was not executed by backdating and signed illegally by Bruce Buel and Karen Vega.

They have nothing left - so I guess it's time to trot out those flimsy allegations as BWS isn't watching (or billing) to try and make something stick. I'm sure we will all know more when Warren Jensen's report is put on the LOWWP site on Monday. And that Gail and Lisa, in this vendetta, are going to look pretty foolish. 9:32 PM, June 02, 2009

Why are you afraid of an independent third party oversight of the project procurement process? ---do you even know what that is?


Gail McPherson

44 comments:

Richard LeGros said...

What Gail fails to say is that:

1. The DA never said that a felony occured with MWH contract. If one had, he would have prosecuted.

2. While a CRIMINAL suit was not filed by the DA, Lisa and the CSD( if they had a valid case against MW) should have filed a CIVIL lawsuit against MWH in order to collect financial damages; which they never did. If Lisa and the CSD believe what they are now sayng to the County, they had an obligation under their oath of office to protect the Los Osos property owners by filing a CIVIL lawsuit.

3. In the matter of CSD documents, CSD staffers have privately reported that ORIGINAL CSD documents (not copies) have been filtering back(returned) to the office. This says that ORIGINALS DOCUMENTS WERE REMOVED FROM THE OFFICE. Never-the-less, without judicial review of this issue, we will never know if the CSD and GAil are telling the truth or not.

4. How does Gail know the CSD is trying to settle with MW; or if such is occuring the motivation for doing so? To my knowledge such an issue has never been agendized or dicussed in open session. To my knowledge no such discussions have occured in closed session, or actions reported from closed sessin either. So why is Gail saying this. A logical assumption is that she is receiving information from closed session; which is a serious breach of CSD conidentiality.

-R

alabamasue said...

Sounds like Gail is trying to repair her image (and perhaps rewrite history.)We who live here already know her by her words and actions. I'll stand by Sewertoons on this one.

Rick said...

@Richard:

(1) Do you know how and why district attorneys choose to prosecute or not prosecute certain crimes?

(2) They have no such obligation. You're trying to say that's what *you* think they should have done. Not the same thing.

I don't know anything about (3) or (4)

@alabamasue

I'm not sure what any of this ad hominem has to do with anything. Either the process was done properly or not. The idea that someone that may or may not have what you consider to be all the right merit badges doesn't preclude them from being right about something.

This whole thing is ridiculous. I've lived in LO for 2 years, and I mostly ignore it. People are shocked that there's gambling in Casablanca--that everything the government does isn't squeaky clean, that everything the government isn't a perfect fair solution to everyone, and that there are people that aren't popular involved in the process. Yet this doesn't excuse that behavior, nor should it spawn the kind of ad hominem issue blurring hit jobs that are going on.

On the other hand, everyone in town seems to have a Ph.D. in septic technology. It would all be funny if it weren't so sad.

Ron said...

Ann wrote:

"But, besides the ranters and blatherers, there’s another regular “voice” that appears here. I call them the Holy Supplicants. For these people, there’s a carefully crafted mantra of misinformation, wrong “facts,” misrepresented “facts,” and “facts that they just make up on the spot, then repeat over and over and over, like a true believer running their rosary beads. No amount of “setting the record straight” works. Other posters can chime in and state actual, true facts, but like swallows returning to Capistrano, the bead runners will return to the same false mantra. Talk about “staying on message.” Quite remarkable."

In other words, as I have exposed over and over again at SewerWatch, "behavior based marketing."

That's exactly why I don't give that tiny handful of anonalosers nearly the amount of room that they get here.

As I show on my blog, Los Osos is nothing more than a victim of ten years-(at least)-and-counting of behavior based marketing.

Attack the messenger, deliberate misinformation, compulsive lying, combined with LOTS of folksy slogans... yep, ALL crucial elements of a successful behavior based marketing campaign, and ALL elements that I've witnessed, first hand, for over ten years now with the Los Osos story.

Behavior based marketing IS the root cause of LO's problems.

And, albeit sad, it is very, very interesting.

Like I always say, Rod Serling would have LOVED Los Osos.

Hey 'toons (and, unfortunately, Ann) here's a Google search you might find interesting:

libel comments blog

I'm looking forward to Jensen's report. That should provide some beautiful amunititon.

Shark Inlet said...

Gail has a really good point in her complaints about the way 'Toons has been presenting Gail's past. Probably more care should have been taken in 'Toons choice of words or perhaps Gail's past should not even have been brought up.

Personally, I'll view that past as completely irrelevant unless someone can tell me that the charge was for falsifying a document and that there either was a conviction, a guilty plea or a no contest plea.


That being said, I am still curious about how much PZLDF has paid to Sullivan and how much the LOCSD has paid to Sullivan. If, for whatever reason, the LOCSD has paid, say $200k, I would expect that PZLDF would have paid $600k (or they will shortly). After all, if the LOCSD's "25%" isn't actually 25% of the amount paid, there is a fraud being perpetrated here. (And I am using that term in the casual sense and will defer to Aaron on the legal definition ... the way I mean it is that if the LOCSD agrees to pay a fourth but end up paying, say half or 2/3 of the total amount paid it is not the fourth they agreed to pay ... and under such circumstances, either Sullivan or PZLDF or both have somehow cheated the LOCSD out of money they can not afford to give away.)


On Richard's 2nd point, a civil suit is typically easier to win than a criminal suit on the same issue ... so if Lisa really believed that there was any funny business, she passed up the best opportunity to hold MWH accountable for what she believes to be their wrongdoing. Maybe it was because the LOCSD had a small budget and couldn't afford the legal bills in such a suit, but when you look at other spending choices by the LOCSD it seems that there was probably at least a conscious choice to pursue these other issues instead of pursuing MWH. Why is this?

I don't think that I care about whether copies or originals of the LOCSD documents were removed ... presumably it might matter to some ... what I want to know is whether any of those documents were not for public eyes or not and whether there were the appropriate charges paid to the LOCSD for making copies. If I walked down to the office and asked for copies of some arbitrary document, they would charge me by the page for providing a copy. Did someone pay to get copies of these documents or were they provided at no cost to some members of the public when others would have been charged for the very same documents?

Aaron Ochs - Managing Editor of The ROCK said...

This is too juicy for me to ignore this issue.

First, Gail McPherson is not an angel and you don't even have to look at her personal record to reach that conclusion.

At the same time, when you're not accurate in projecting someone's professional record, that really puts you in a bad spot. When you go about it maliciously and publicly, spreading inaccuracies, you are liable for a defamation suit.

As I've shown in previous posts, Gail McPherson is NOT a private citizen. When you make television appearances and serve as an intermediary for the district when the post-recall board was in charge of the wastewater project, that makes you a public citizen.

Gail can tell you that PZLDF wasn't "her" lawsuit and if you look at the parties of the faulty lawsuit, she's not there, but she never said that she didn't coordinate the lawsuit as chair of PZLDF.

It's like her saying that she didn't sit in the room with Blakeslee to set up AB2701, but her friend, Robin Hayhurst, pushed strongly for that legislation only for the County to fudge it and all of a sudden, Gail, who was all about supporting the process and not let any side "hijack it," is now condemning it. Her positions are conveniently altered for the occasion.

As far as the public documents go, she is only partially telling the truth. In early 2005, I went to her house and saw cartons on the floor in her living room. She said that many of the CSD documents were "moved" from the office, but if those documents were truly public, wouldn't she have said, "These are copies are public documents"?

Even though she wasn't elected to the district, she served the district and was briefed by the CSD board members on issues that were discussed at the meetings. Then she would sit in the back of the room and advise the board members on what actions they should take because the board members were inexperienced when it came to dealing with the wastewater issue compared to her.

"What do we do now, Gail?"

To visualize her standing in the district, she was like the Republican Rahm Emanuel of the district with vulgarities and all.

Since there are many, many lingering questions regarding PZLDF from members of the public, she ought to disclose all the funding on the pzldf.org web site, but her history of not being transparent leads me to believe that she'll never follow through.

Shark Inlet said...

Aaron,

I do want to add one thing ... there is nothing wrong with the board having someone they look to for advice. It is best, however, when that individual is in the role of GM, district attorney or a paid consultant. Presumably the district would have some recourse if there was negligent advice provided.

Essentially, the buck stops with the board ... even if they were given poor advice ... which is why it is best to get a variety of points of view and to weigh them all carefully before taking action. Even so, had Dan Blesky taken actions or made suggestions to the board which, after careful investigation, were incorrect, WilDan could be pursued for any damages caused by his advice. Such a case could be tough to prove, but if I'm not mistaken, even lawfirms are sometimes successfully sued for malpractice ... for providing faulty advice to their clients.

Ron said...

"amunititon?"

That'll teach me to tag something onto a comment without running it through a spell-checker first, huh?

And, while I'm back (procrastinating), coupla' specific, EXCELLENT, and VERY interesting examples of "behavior based marketing" that I've compiled over the years, that I can now just copy-and-paste:

- - -
"Gary and I are supporting Bruce Gibson for Supervisor. We believe Bruce Gibson has the background, knowledge and scientific expertise to help us build the sewer..."
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, 2006

"The County couldn't care less about the Los Osos Community..."
-- Gary Karner, February, 2005

"... could the LOCSD transfer the sewer project to the county BEFORE the current CSD-3 leave office?"
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, September, 2005

"More delays mean the LOCSD may be fined out of existence. We’d lose local control."
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, from Save the Dream Newsletter #4, March 25, 2005

"I hope the CSD gets fined out of existence..."
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, Sept. 28, 2005

"Additional Endorsements for Richard LeGros: Pandora Nash-Karner"
-- SmartVoter.org, November 2002

"Pandora Nash-Karner - Chair, Representing District 2 for Supervisor Bruce Gibson."
-- SLO County Parks Commission web site, Current
- - -

and;

- - -
"The California Coastal Commission required Public Amenities be added to the wastewater site. These include: Off-leash Dog Park, Play Field (for soccer, etc.), Tot Lot, Amphitheater, Picnic Area, Community Gardens, Restrooms, Parking, Walking Paths, and Bike Lane. (Source: California Coastal Commission)"
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, Save the Dream Newsletter #3, March 9, 2005

"... the LOCSD has agreed to reincorporate public amenities that were included in the site plan reviewed by the Commission during the processing of LCP Amendment 3-01 but later removed by the LOCSD..."
-- California Coastal Commission, Tri-W Development Permit, 2004, now expired

"... the (LOCSD) Board on June 17, 2004 agreed to (reincorporate) the picnic area, tot lot, amphitheater, and community garden (back into the Tri-W sewer plant)..."
-- LOCSD "Response to the California Coastal Commission," June 28, 2004

"The California Coastal Commission required Public Amenities be added to the wastewater site."
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, Save the Dream Newsletter #3, March 9, 2005

"It galls me when they say we added the amenities."
-- Steve Monowitz, former permit supervisor for the California Coastal Commission, as told to SewerWatch, Summer, 2005

"The size and location of the other sites did not provide an opportunity to create a community amenity. The sites on the outskirts of town could not deliver a community use area that was readily accessible to the majority of residents..."
-- Tri-W Facilities Report, 2001 (As first reported in New Times, Three Blocks Upwind of Downtown, September, 2004)

"Pandora Nash-Karner, Los Osos CSD vice-president, 1998 - 2002"
-- SmartVoter.org -
- - -

Another crucial element in a successful BBM campaign?

Be on a first-name-basis with EVERY influential local media member, politician, and government official.

Right? Bill (Morem), Bruce (Gibson), Paavo (Ogren), Jim (Patterson), Martin (Basti), Shirley (Bianchi), Dave (Congalton), Bud (Laurent), etc., etc., etc.?

Billy Dunne said...

Shark/Aaron: is PZLDF a non profit? And if so, wouldn't their financials be available to the public?

Ron, I'm curious if you have a response to the beatdown you took at the hands of Ed Ochs over at Aaron's blog.

Unknown said...

The CSD needed to file a civil complaint to recover any money it might want to recover under the California False Claims Act. The "Remedies" section of the act says:

(b)(1) The prosecuting authority of a political subdivision shall diligently investigate violations under Section 12651 involving political subdivision funds. If the prosecuting authority finds that a person has violated or is violating Section 12651, the prosecuting authority may bring a civil action under this section against that person.

The CSD didn't do this so . . . "case closed" (because there was never a case). Why Lisa and Gail are bringing this non-event up now is a mystery.

Watershed Mark said...

-r wrote: "[...To my knowledge no such discussions have occured in closed session,...]"

r- I like how you give up that you have someone talking out of school to you from inside the CSD.

Willy,
Your questions are silly.
Try sticking to the facts.

Aaron Ochs - Managing Editor of The ROCK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Watershed Mark said...

Sue wrote: "I'll stand by Sewertoons on this one."

Just like you did when you thought you remembered seeing "Mr, Dean "sorry, I forgot his last name" on a CSD Meeting archive tape?

Yeap water seeks its own level.

Aaron Ochs - Managing Editor of The ROCK said...

Edited:

Shark,

I agree completely. There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone providing advice to the district. That's what public comment is all about, but the problem I personally have is that her advice was taken into consideration more than anyone else.

Essentially, she was given open access to ex parte communications with the board. I took a look at several e-mails that had correspondence going back and forth between her and board members. Later at the meetings, I could see the very same board members echoing her concerns and her rationale. The district wasn't listening to the people. The district chose to listen to Gail and her supporters. The partisans took precedence over the people.

PZLDF is a non-profit organization. Their financials should be available to the public, but it would be a gesture of good faith if those said financials were disclosed on the PZLDF.org.

But she won't do it.

Watershed Mark said...

Who is providing Maria Kelly with "advice"???

Why hasn't Maria offered a reason why Paavo's sole source/ no bid consulting engineer didn't study vacuum collection?
I thought she said she "cared" about the community.

Watershed Mark said...

Aaron wrote: "The district wasn't listening to the people."
Aaron: Neither is the SLOCO et al. nor did the TAC.

Sarah Cristie has her ears on though, KUDOS to her!!
Hopefully the CCC will keep an open clear and common sense process…

Aaron Ochs - Managing Editor of The ROCK said...

Mark, remember that contribution from an "anonymous" member of the community that compared the LOWWP criteria to the systems at Virginia Tech?

They do listen to people, just not the people that disagree ;)

Unknown said...

back Ron.... We are so thankful that you continue to publicize all the good works of Pandora...!!!! Poor Gail has to run a second to Pandora thanks to you constantly showing us how powerful Pandora really is... Thanks Ron, greatly appreciated...

Watershed Mark said...

Aaron,

Of course people, even those elected or appointment to a public servant positions, are subject to human emotions.
What I look for and want in a government employee is transparency, accountability and fiduciary duty.

The citizens got exactly what they deserved from that Paavo handpicked TAC committee and Chairman.

The TAC may provide some very interesting entertainment when the "chips hit the fan".

FOGSWAMP said...

Ann said "Anonymous" posters have NO credibility".

Perhaps anonymous posters are less credible at times(as in this case), however they can build up solid reputations with their readers by proving themselves to be consistently credible.

Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson that wrote under ficticious names just to stir up the political pot to get his point across?

Don't journalists rely on an interpretation of rights under the First Amendment to keep anonymous news sources anonymous?

alabamasue said...

Good point, FOGSWAMP ! I don't always agree with you, but you are right in this case. Many men during the American revolution wrote treatises and pamphlets anonymously. They had to, to avoid the old "I know where you live" repercussions. I find it strange that people like Ann, Ron, and Mark Low feel the need to know who we are. How about just responding to the issue at hand?

Watershed Mark said...

Why wasn't vacuum collection stdied by Paavo's hand picked/no bid sole source consulting engineer?
How is that for staying on point Sue?
What about your friend "sorry, I forgot his last name" Lynette and you lying about Mr. Dean "sorry, I forgot his last name"???

If you were using your real identity would you be so happy and cavaklier about lying?

Would a Founding Father lie like you and Lynette?

Watershed Mark said...

If you were using your real identity would you be so happy and cavalier about lying?

Watershed Mark said...

I understand where "sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette stands.
Are you still certain you want to climb into bed with her Sue?

Shark Inlet said...

I have to totally disagree with Fogswamp ... the authors of the Federalist Papers were lying bastards and have no credibility because they didn't put their names on their writings.

As for Mark's complaints about others lying, I find it curious that he feels quite comfortable misrepresenting what I wrote about the Phoenix area and about the state of the Phoenix aquifers. Even with putting his name on his comments, he has no shame (or no understanding ... I guess we really cannot know which).

Back to Madison, Hamilton and Jay ... they clearly have no right to comment on any subject matter.

Churadogs said...

richard sez:"How does Gail know the CSD is trying to settle with MW; or if such is occuring the motivation for doing so? To my knowledge such an issue has never been agendized or dicussed in open session. To my knowledge no such discussions have occured in closed session, or actions reported from closed sessin either. So why is Gail saying this. A logical assumption is that she is receiving information from closed session; which is a serious breach of CSD conidentiality."

Actually, a LOGICAL ASSUMPTION would be, if the beleagered and bankrupt CSD is NOT pushing to settle anything and everything they can, then people should assume something's very wrong. That logical assumption isn't based on closed session leaks, it's simple common sense and connecting dots, something anyone can do. Beat a entity (CSD) down, pile on lawsuits, sue them both as an entity and sue them personally, try to dissolve that entity, and fine them out of existence and bankrupt them and see how fast they settle and bury everything you want buried. Makes perfect sense to me with no "inside" information. That's just typical strategy.

Inlet sez:"Even so, had Dan Blesky taken actions or made suggestions to the board which, after careful investigation, were incorrect, WilDan could be pursued for any damages caused by his advice.

And where, pray tell, does the CSD get the money to pay for that lawsuit? Ditto MWH contract irregularities? If the CSD didn't have to spend a bundle paying out to settle the previous CSD's attempt to Block Measure B and pay out to "defend" against TPW's having LOCAC "dissolve" the CSD and paying to defend CSD members personally, and hiring lawyers to defend the CSD against getting "fined out of existence" & other such stuff, maybe they would have had money for a complete forensic autit (still waiting for that) and for following up on the breach of contract lawsuit & etc. But, see my comment above. One strategy to prevent any of that from happening is . . . see above.

Fogswamp sez:"Don't journalists rely on an interpretation of rights under the First Amendment to keep anonymous news sources anonymous?"

The "anonymous news source" isn't anonymous to the reporter and he is responsible for checking the credibility and verifying the info given to him by "anonymous." Best famous case was "DeepThroat." Woodward and Bernstein knew who Deepthroat was but had to go verify -- usually with 2 other credible sources -- any info he gave them.

In the case of blog commentors, I suppose there'd be an exception to anonymous credibility if an "anonymous" poster simply posted links to actual documents that people could read for themselves. That person's info could be verified and presumably would would be credible since it was based on real documents.

alabamasue sez:"I find it strange that people like Ann, Ron, and Mark Low feel the need to know who we are. How about just responding to the issue at hand?"

You're not correct. I don't feel the need to know who you are. I have repeatedly issued caveats that "anonymous posters" have NO CREDIBILITY, because they're "anonymous" and there's no way for the reader to know how reliable they are. That's not a need to know. That's simply a caveat to all. Big difference.

Inlet sez:"As for Mark's complaints about others lying, "

There's part of the problem: define "lying." If we both look at an apple and you say, "It's round" and I say, 'No, it's more oval shaped." Who's "lying?" If on the other hand, I say, "John Smith was convicted of lying," (a verifiable fact) and John was demonstrably NOT convicted of anything, let alone "lying," is that a lie or a mistake? If my statment about John's conviction was corrected and then I say it AGAIN, am I then "lying?"

Churadogs said...

Ooops, forgot to add:

Richard sez:". The DA never said that a felony occured with MWH contract. If one had, he would have prosecuted."

Wrong. DA's only "prosecute" on cases they know they can win or have sufficient evidence that they've got a really good chance of winning or cases involving sufficiently henious "felonies" that are politically expedient to prosecute. All others get dumped, felony or no. Which is why I keep saying, A crime is a crime only when a DA somewhere declares it to be a crime.

Aaron Ochs - Managing Editor of The ROCK said...

On my blog, I've allowed people to post anonymously because not everyone has the time to register a Blogger account and login to post comments.

One thing about the nature of Anonymous is that they hold views that are often extreme and inaccurate, but when a name is attached to those comments, then people soften their stance in order to prevent backlash.

It's important for people to come out of that Anonymous shell to post because the discussion takes a more humanistic form. I bet you that if "Mike" were to reveal who he really is, then his responses would be a lot more humble.

FOGSWAMP said...

Churasdogs

Regardless of whether you believe in anonymous news sources on blogs' as credible or not, there's no denying reporters need and use confidentiality, so why is extending that benefit to anonymous writers who want the freedom of engaging in ideas and thoughts without threatening or compromising their own lives, so hard to accept?

alabamasue - - thanks. It is a Western culture intellectual tradition to have anonymous authors.

Sharkinlet - - Either you allow anonymous comments to "everyone" or you don't. It's called "free utterance".

The Internet presents very tricky legal questions about First Amendments rights. Seemingly and rightfully pro-free-speech, without a doubt, is the direction we are headed on the Internet.

FOGSWAMP said...

Churadogs

Sorry, I mispelled your "anonymous" title.

NO disrespect intended.

franc4 said...

sue sez;
"I'll stand by Sewertoons on this one."
...why am I not surprised?????

...oh, and Mike....glad to see you haven't stopped showing how dumb you really are.

franc4 said...

It never ceases to amaze me that some of you never miss a chance to TRY to discredit Gail.

franc4 said...

...oh, and Mr. Lagos,

Just because you "aren't aware" of something, does that make it wrong?....or is your informer not feeding you creditable info? Why didn't you show "awareness" while in office? Maybe LoSo wouldn't be in the mess you, Stosh and Gordy created.

franc4 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
franc4 said...

...furthermore, I am amazed with all the liars, double dealing, back stabbings, backroom, under the table dealing politics, and cronyism going on around, you choose to TRY to discredit someone who is REALLY concerned with justice being served to folks of the PZ (and LoSo)and just ignore all the bad stuff. One wonders where your morals or sense of judgment lie.
Why is it so important to some of you how much money was received by PZDF on why she had "boxes" in her possession? could be she was resorting to anything (just like the DA and other agencies) to get some answers and resolution to alot of shady stuff that went down with the disposed 3. Shouldn't you be more concerned with the amounts that Richy, Stosh and Gordy blew on an illegal, poorly designed project? Now there is something to ponder and persue, don't you think? That's the crew you should be concerned with and be suing!!!!!

Shark Inlet said...

Franc,

The reason that the PZLDF payments are important is that the LOCSD agreed to pay 1/4 of the costs of the PZLDF lawsuit against the RWQCB. If, for whatever reason, the LOCSD ends up paying ... oh ... let's say, half of the total costs (but only 1/4 of the billed amount .... because conveniently Sullivan somehow reduces the billed amount by half after the LOCSD makes their payment), there has been a fraud. If, somehow, the LOCSD agrees to pay 1/4 but ends up paying more than 1/4, someone who is not entitled to LOCSD money is getting paid out of the pockets of those who live in Los Osos.

That's a big deal.

Similarly, if ... somehow ... a person had received preferential treatment by getting hundreds or thousands of dollars of free services (not paying for copies of tens of thousands of pages of documents that would normally cost $0.10 per page), it would be a big deal.

An even bigger deal would be the removal of original documents owned by the LOCSD which should not leave the office under any circumstances.

Even if the recalled directors should be sued for some reason (and I note with interest, no one has sued Richard so I guess there must not be much evidence which would justify such a suit because surely he has many who would want to sue him), the topic we were discussing are the actions of others. Certainly, if wrong has been done by more than one person, we should be allowed to discuss the wrongs of one even if ... for a while ... the wrongs of others are not being discussed.

In short, you are essentially telling us that because Saddam was a bad man, we should overlook the bad behavior of the guards at Abu Ghraib. Sorry, I don't live in a world where one wrong somehow justifies another.


And, if you're gonna say that such behaviors are justified because the person was trying to do the right thing ... you've really got to re-think your position on Stan, Gordon and Richard because ... after all, they were trying to do the right thing as well.

Ron said...

BD wrote:

"Ron, I'm curious if you have a response to the beatdown you took at the hands of Ed Ochs over at Aaron's blog."

Just like I gave AlabamaSue an honest answer when she asked if I liked Watershed Mark calling me "The Man", and I said that I didn't (by the way Mark, thank you for not doing that anymore, but I have to admit, I get a chuckle out of what you replaced it with: "__ __". The reason I chuckle at that is because I can only imagine which two words people now use to fill in those blanks.)

... my honest answer to your question, BD, is:

1) never read it, 2) if it's what I think it's about, since all of my reporting on the Los Osos sewer story is time-stamped dating back to 1990, I don't care.

So my answer is 1) never read it, and 2) never read it because I don't care.

Someone doesn't like me? Welcome to the club.

Look, all I do (and all I've ever done) is report facts, like this:

"Pandora Nash Karner has absolutely no affiliations with; and absolutely no input into; the Taxpayer's Watch organization at all. Neither now or in the past. Period. Those folks that claim Pandora is part of the Taxpayer's Watch organization are are incorrect and uninformed. After this post, those that continue saying she is affiliated with Taxpayer's Watch are lying."
-- Richard LeGros, February 27, 2009

"Joyce Albright found out today that the Tribune will be allowing a section, once per week, on the sewer issue. Please do NOT copy the concepts in your letter, otherwise, the media will recognize our efforts as a group effort and we lose our credibility."
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, August 9, 2005

"Joyce Albright, Taxpayers Watch"
-- LAFCO Minutes, September 21, 2006

... and this:

"Solution Group members are... Pandora Nash-Karner, Bob Semonson, Frank Freiler, Jerry Gregory, Virgil Just..."
-- Pandora Nash-Karner, from a Solution Group newsletter, 1998

"Additional Endorsements for Richard LeGros: Pandora Nash-Karner, Bob Semonson, Frank Freiler, Jerry Gregory, Virgil Just"
-- SmartVoter.org, November 2002

Now THAT's stuff I care about. You know... facts.

AlabamaSue wrote:

"I find it strange that people like Ann, Ron, and Mark Low feel the need to know who we are."

I don't feel the need to know who you are... in fact, considering the disgusting human behavior that anonymity can reveal, trust me, I REALLY don't want to know almost all of the anonalosers.

The reason I hammer away at the anonalosers here and on my blog is because this IS the Los Osos sewer story, and, as my tight, tight, time-stamped reporting has repeatedly shown over the decades, "behavior based marketing" IS the root of ALL of Los Osos' problems. So, when I see anonymous... uh... things deliberately "behavior based marketing" on the blogs... yeah, I'll hammer away.

For other subjects -- subjects sans "behavior based marketing" -- I really don't care if someone's anonymous.

Although, like I said, the display of despicable human behavior that anonymity reveals, like hiding behind ridiculous anonymous monikers, and then insulting real people that have the courage to put their names to their words and actions, I find absolutely disgusting, and so should everyone... with a shred of human decency.

I think Ann also makes an excellent point with that "giving them rope" thing.

Ron said...

I exceed the maximum character amount with my previous comment, that also included this:

Franc4 wrote:

"Shouldn't you be more concerned with the amounts that Richy, Stosh and Gordy blew on an illegal, poorly designed project? Now there is something to ponder and persue, don't you think? That's the crew you should be concerned with and be suing!!!!!"

Misdirection is another critical component in a "behavior based marketing" campaign. You'll see that tactic employed over and over again by the anonymous BBMers.

Pandora LOVES her little "strategies."

M said...

Shark, don't you think using a mass murderer versus someone putting a pair of panties on someones head in an analogy is a little extreme?
Sincerely, M

Aaron Ochs - Managing Editor of The ROCK said...

Ann calls this "ankle-biting," but I think this is an important issue that's worth discussing. I think it's about time that I publicly put my foot down regarding Ron Crawford.

Ron,

You made some comments that accused The ROCK of plagiarizing from your blog. Instead of reiterating your stance and our thorough rebuttal to your implied accusation, you basically write, "I'm right and you're wrong," and that's not how a journalist should act after they're called out for making a faulty accusation.

When Billy Dunne asked you about what was posted on my blog, you wrote, "Never read it because I don't care." I find this to be a recurring theme with you. You don't read or thoroughly comprehend anything else that anyone writes. You're the expert of your own source material.

"As I've said on my blog..."

In a desperate attempt to rebrand yourself, you post "facts," which are simply links to comments made by people on Calhoun's blog. You posted statements.

As far as actual facts are concerned, you twist them and you stand by misquotes in an attempt to justify your psychopathic obsession over Pandora Nash-Karner and the Solutions Group, which remain completely irrelevant to what's happening now -- or in other words, the real world.

A shining example is Shark Inlet's criticism of your cost estimates. To this day, you have not addressed his criticism.

A few months ago, I sent an e-mail to members of the Cal Poly Journalism faculty your long-winded rant about journalism and how I'm not one. While I did not get a response to Mr. Havandjian directly, his colleagues and fellow students had one unanimous reaction to your words: "Idiotic."

One person wrote, "Ron Crawford focuses on sensationalism rather than critical issues that affect everyone in Los Osos [...] He does not represent nor respect our standards of journalism. He is unqualified."

Your articles are unfit to print. You, being (likely) mentally unfit, shouldn't bother pretending to be a journalist.

Shark Inlet said...

M,

Whether you feel that the Saddam/Abu Ghraib example doesn't match the current situation ... I apologize. I was just trying to think of an example in the news of late where people have justified bad behavior by saying that those who engaged in the bad behavior were, in other ways, doing something good. It doesn't fly ... whether in Iraq or here. Even if Franc is right about how bad TriW and Richard are, it still wouldn't justify, not paying one's legal bills and then asking the district to pick up more than their fair share of that same bill.

The ends justifying the means is something I am uncomfortable with and I would hope that most people agree.

Watershed Mark said...

Sue, "sorry, I forgot his last name" Lynette:
As Lou recently spoke about the level of professionalism he thought the SLO County Staff were exhibiting in the "process", would you ask Lou the questions below and report back to us his answers?

Why wasn't vacuum collection studied by Paavo's handpicked/no bid sole source consulting engineer?

Why isn't it, being studied now?

Where is Maria Kelly on this issue?
Doesn’t she care about the community?

Maybe some more lying is in order?
What do you say Sue, "sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette?

What does Lou think about your behaviour?
Does he know about and stand behind it? Professionally speaking of course as I assume he is in bed with you.

Watershed Mark said...

Oh, one more thing "sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette, just in case you missed this question from Gail:

“Why are you afraid of an independent third party oversight of the project procurement process? ---do you even know what that is?”

Questions like these lead to more questions, even when they are unanswered.
Why don't you talk it over with Lou, Sue and MIKE and see if you can come up with something better than "sorry..."

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
You wrote "Phoenix is in over draft"
The fact is Phoenix is not in over draft.

You are still stuck on stupid. Keep it up, it fits you perfectly.

I like how you played the "shame" card.
I wonder if Lou is ashamed of Lynette yet?