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Friday, April 25, 2008

Calhoun’s Can(n)ons, The Bay News, Tolosa Press, SLO, CA for April 24, 2008


Dear Sir!

Oh, but I do love letters to the editor. I suspect most people do. Next to the funnies, I think the favorite section of any paper is the Letters Section. As a columnist, I’m always heartened to see other people taking time to share their opinions. And, knowing the perils and pitfalls that lurk in the written word, I always welcome my fellow scribblers and extend to them wide latitude, great patience and sincere sympathy when they try their hand at public comment. I know first hand what a treacherous undertaking it always is – uncaught typos lurking to snare you, dangling participles and gerunds run amok, the unclear sentence leading you and the reader into the Bog of Bewilderment.

It’s a tricky business, this writing, and a harsh but valuable discipline. In a literature class I once took, the Professor required us to keep written journals, running commentary of our own choosing on all the material we were covering that semester. He quoted an old tribal saying as the rationale for the process: “How can I know what I think unless I see what I say.”

Indeed. There is something in writing that demands a certain disciplined, linear order of thought – “something something” followed by “something something else.” And the act of actually writing something down fixes it in a certain logical order that requires that whatever follows must fit the whole. Thinking your thoughts to yourself doesn’t work as well because they remain as fluid and changeable as smoke --a contradiction can simply be forgotten as the new thought forges ahead. And since most listeners may miss critical contradictions of spoken thought, the brain can easily manipulate the whole communication into a he said/ did not / did too muddle. Not so the written word. Those confusions pop up and remain stubborn in their inky presence on the page.

Which is not to say clear writing will result in clear reading. Far from it. Readers bring their own blinders and baggage to the process that’s often mystifying in its Rorschach weirdness. I have had a particular reader for years who is as dependable as Pavlov’s dog: tweak a few of his sacred cows and he’s guaranteed to come roaring out on the letters page in High Dudgeon. Unfortunately, his efforts too often always end in comedy because few people can figure out just what it was he saw in a particular column to set him off in the first place. And then, having worked himself up into an unseemly lather, his wrathful fury then carries him off into the wilderness of the non sequitur. He’s the kind of letter writer who responds to a column about Eliot Spitzer, for example, by demanding – DEMANDING! – to know why the columnist didn’t say a word about Millard Fillmore, I ask you! What about HIM? Eh? Eh?

To which one can only head-scratch and reply, Uh, well, probably because the column was about . . . Elliot Spitzer?
And so it goes, the constant reminder that no matter what you write about, some people simply won’t get it or will just use your comments as a springboard excuse to break out their own wonderful, horn-tooting, tub-thumping band wagon and go off down the road in a verbal calliope of fury.

To which I can only say, Amen. I’m happy that people care enough about a topic to bother to stand up and let their voices be heard. For a country that has enshrined in its Constitution the right of its citizens to speak out freely in the marketplace of ideas, we are a remarkably fearful and silent people. That is never good for a democracy.

And, as a columnist, it’s always useful to be reminded that there are people out there who think me a Complete Blockhead and that no matter what I write, they stand ready to unleash their Great Sword of Umbrage to remind readers what an unmitigated fool I am. That’s always good information to keep at hand before beginning the difficult process of putting thoughts to paper – “something something” followed by “something something else.”

94 comments:

Shark Inlet said...

Good points ...

But in a blog where you get comments and regular feedback, it would make sense if some of your later writings incorporated info you learned from the feedback of was in some way guided by that feedback.

Suppose, for example, that someone had a "the Holocaust is a Myth" blog and that their feedback pointed the author to ... um ... facts. Presumably the author of the blog would want to address those facts head on by denying them or by explaining why they aren't relevant. To ignore relevant comments will cause one's own coments to become irrelevant.

Now I am not accusing you, Ann, of doing this very much. I do note, however, that there are some issues which you seem to like to avoid ... issues which seem to many in Los Osos to be key to our understanding of things sewerish. Issues like the cost of various systems and the cost of inflation and the cost of fighting the RWQCB and SWRCB and contractors and the County and pretty much everyone who doesn't offer a dirt cheap, state of the art "sustainable" system which happens to be on site or out of town (I just find it deliciously ironic that those who want out of town at all costs are also often greatly enamored with having MBR-like systems in every single yard in town ... systems very much like the horrible odor producing and dangerously unsafe TriW).

Here's my question on the whole PZLDF suit ... what's it gonna cost the LOCSD and is that money well spent? Is there likely a benefit of the lawsuit should it prevail or would a "win" be bad for our town? Finally, what is the chance of a win?

On that last point, it would seem that if PZLDF keeps getting shot down, the chance that they will win is quite low.

I also wonder aloud whether a PZLDF win will help our town. If the very definition of the PZ is shot down it is likely that there will be another lawsuit about a sewer, this one asking AB2701 to be struck down.

Would such actions really help us clean up our problem? Are PZLDF and LOCSD actions really about clean water ... or are they just a way of fighting the County and RWQCB? The evidence is still out on that one, but the question is an interesting one.

*PG-13 said...

(Blogging from the other side of the world. Isn't the internet wonderful?)

Dear Madam,

These, I think, are my most favorite. While most things sewerish are of great - and always convoluted - interest these are the blogs relating to things greater than a sewer. Greater than a sewer? Is it possible? Sewers and their ilk have come and passed before but the great human comedy will seemingly continue forever. At least right up until it doesn't matter any more. And then, and then, it will just be something else. (Been listening to some Alan Watts recently. Does it show?)

> I always welcome my fellow scribblers and extend to them wide latitude, great patience and sincere sympathy when they try their hand at public comment.

Thank you. And this, more than the sewer, is what keeps bringing me back. To read, to grok, to try to fathom, and then to write. To try to craft a response.

> ... uncaught typos lurking to snare you, dangling participles and gerunds run amok, the unclear sentence leading you and the reader into the Bog of Bewilderment.

Oh gawd, typo's I understand. Thank god for technology! But I wouldn't know a dangling participle or a gerund - amok or non - if it bit me. (sigh) So many apologies due so many faithful and totally committed teachers in my past. I am sorry. I am so very sorry. I fail you even as I try to honor you. Yet a Blog of Bewilderment I totally grok. I pray I bring their spirit forward even if my writing falls wayfully short.

> There is something in writing that demands a certain disciplined, linear order of thought... And the act of actually writing something down fixes it in a certain logical order that requires that whatever follows must fit the whole.

And hence the value of blogs! At least those blogs which go beyond simple neener-neener accussations and Cut & Pasted barely relevant quotes. A digital conversation. A civil conversation of logic and facts. Communication. Imagine!

> And so it goes, the constant reminder that no matter what you write about, some people simply won’t get it or will just use your comments as a springboard excuse to break out their own wonderful, horn-tooting, tub-thumping band wagon and go off down the road in a verbal calliope of fury.

"... their own wonderful, horn-tooting, tub-thumping band wagon of... verbal calliope of fury"? That's just too precious not to acknowledge. Thanks. Made me grin.

To which I can only say, Amen.

Amen.

Mike Green said...

Ann, your article got me to thinking more than I'm accustomed to, and thats a good thing.
I began by asking myself , Self, just how many letters DID you write to the "Editor"
What editor? The Triv?
One says I
One
And yet here, I write lots of things, asked questions, got into arguments, made friends.
Nearly ruined good monitors with spew.
I even reported news (not much)
I too have drifted far from the suggested course.
and created prose of questionable taste.
So what I want to convey is a heartfelt thank-you for the forum, and the general compadre of this board.

Churadogs said...

Inlet sez:"Presumably the author of the blog would want to address those facts head on by denying them or by explaining why they aren't relevant. To ignore relevant comments will cause one's own coments to become irrelevant."

You're joking? No matter what I or anyone writes about, say, Tri-W, others (you) will deny and/or disagree. For example, this community was told repeatedly by the previous CSD Board the "fact" that Tri W was the ONLY way, the "fact" that it was the cheapest, etc. The TAC report now repeatedly indicates that simply wasn't the case. All the numbers coming in show that's not the case. But if I or others say, The previous CSD was NOT telling this community the "factual" truth, you and others come back and say, Nuh=huh. When Ron Crawford documents the bizarre "bait and switchy," you and others come back and say, Nuh-huh. Then others chime in and we have the back and forth that often makes this blog comment section both fun and crazy-making. so much for "facts" and relevancy.

Inlet also sez:"Here's my question on the whole PZLDF suit ... what's it gonna cost the LOCSD and is that money well spent? Is there likely a benefit of the lawsuit should it prevail or would a "win" be bad for our town? Finally, what is the chance of a win?"

Why don't you answer that question yourself? Then you'll see who pops up to disagree with your "facts." (Fair warning, the question calls for suppositiion, not "fact." Which is why I keep saying, with all things Sewerish, Stay Tuned. I don't have a crystal ball. I have no idea what "the law" will say on the matter.)

Mike Green sez:"And yet here, I write lots of things, asked questions, got into arguments, made friends.
Nearly ruined good monitors with spew.
I even reported news (not much)
I too have drifted far from the suggested course.
and created prose of questionable taste.
So what I want to convey is a heartfelt thank-you for the forum, and the general compadre of this board."

You're welcome and hooray for you. Blogging is sort of like journal writing -- the old How can I know what I think unless I see what I say. It's often useful for sorting out muddlements. I wouldn't know a gerund if it bit me either. (There's a new book out about diagramming sentences. I used to love doing that, it was like unraveling a delicious puzzle, all those little branchng lines with some of the more complex sentences ending up looking like a family tree. Probably should go get that book. Looks like a hoot)

PG-13 sez:" And hence the value of blogs! At least those blogs which go beyond simple neener-neener accussations and Cut & Pasted barely relevant quotes. A digital conversation. A civil conversation of logic and facts. Communication. Imagine!"

Yep. Believe it or not, even among the neener-neener, a lot of this blog's commentors actually often have some really interesting things to say. And even the really childish neener-neener stuff is often very revealing. So, comment on!

Shark Inlet said...

Ann,

I find your unwillingness to pursue all things sewerish disappointing.

Even your example of where I am wrong shows you don't have a full grasp of these issues. The TAC report doesn't indicate that in 2005 TriW (then) would have cost more than out of town (then) ... or that even in 2001 this was the case. That the TAC report ... which doesn't fairly incorporate inflation and time-til-construction in reasonable ways suggests that out of town might be less expensive.

I note here that I've said this before many times and that Maria who participates here has never disagreed with me. She knows the TAC reports and what they contain far better than you.

I don't care about TriW versus out of town. What I care about is getting the long-run cheapest solution for our community. Those who have opposed TriW have consistently told us that there is a cheaper option (indeed, you essentially told us this yourself) yet it seems that every time I see an update on the costs, they are higher. Now what does this tell you? It should at least suggest that by 2005, TriW was the cheapest option we had.

And if you wanna talk about who really wants clean water ... I would suggest that people who are willing to allow pollution to continue for 5+ years ... just so that they can have the treatment plant in their favorite location ... aren't really about clean water. To here those same folks accusing the RWQCB of not caring about pollution is quite irritating.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Ann, where is that "cheaper" plan out of town that the new board sold us?

You discuss the old Board and their emphatic declaration that Tri-W was the only way and how you disagree with that and point it out as not being "factual." But then you entirely ignore the declaration that Lisa made, December 2005 at the Water Board hearing, that there was NO plan. THAT FACT is what I'd like you to address - the bait 'n switchiness - from "we have a plan" to influence votes - to the reality of --"uh, we didn't have a plan." Just how factual was that campaign promise and the reality of "no plan" that the new Board knew all a long?

Shark Inlet said...

'Toons ...

You forget that a statement is only a lie if is in opposition to one's political goals. Facts are not relevant.

Perhaps my sarcasm sounds a bit harsh, but the lack of dismay from Ann (and some others) about the campaign promises of the recall candidates is rather telling.

An opinion is a fine thing to have. If it is nice, though, when the opinion is well thought out. Take the campaign promise of a $100 per month sewer ... a promise made by Steve, Chuck and that other guy. They never revealed any engineering work or financial calculations which would justify that figure. I have to conclude that either there never was any justification for that promise or that they were either embarrassed by the rather sloppy calcs that would have allowed them to feel the promise was reasonable to make.

It is fine to rail about Taxpayers Watch and the Solutions Group as if their efforts have caused some problems ... but if you are unwilling to point fingers at your own side as well, it sounds rather ... um ... shallow and rather partisan.


I guess that one problem is that there are too many folks in town who are too quick to read the worst motives into another's actions and words. Ann herself admits above that she views me as simply a naysayer and not one interested in truth. What makes me saddest here is that I've been trying to broaden Ann's point of view for some time now ... that I've been saying that it isn't enough to say "TriW will stink" or "it is too expensive" as many have done ... that one has to offer a reasonable alternative that is cheaper or more sustainable or hopefully both.

The problem with some of the true believers is that they are simply that ... believers. If my asking for evidence means that I am an enemy of the cause, the cause has adopted a cult-like attitude.

What is funny here is that I'm rather quick to admit many of the points made by the loyal opposition (to the RWQCB, the County, the previous LOCSD board). TriW would be costly. TriW is in the middle of town and one shouldn't have a sewer in the middle of town (like in Santa Cruz or San Francisco for example) unless there is a really really good reason to have one there. Trucking sludge will be expensive. Pumping water uphill is expensive also. Re-using water for irrigation and agriculture is far better for the environment than simply disposing of the water. Ponds are awesome. Better technology might come along.

The problem is this ... while all these things are true, those who have told us that these are reasons for stopping TriW have not offered us a package deal that is any better yet .... especially when you consider the costs involved.


Oh well ... I guess I must be a bad person because I am not simply not willing to believe that there is a better faster and cheaper solution without demonstrated proof ... and I'm not talking about Watershed Mark here ... he's not the only one who has tried to sell Los Osos a bill of goods.

Unknown said...

Just WHERE was any better site than was available in 2002/2002 when the tough decisions had to be made?

Just WHICH available, approved technology was better in 2004/2005?

Those thinking it was a snap decision on either of those questions have no idea how difficult it is to produce a community public works project of this magnitude. How difficult was it to find and purchase sites? How difficult was it to select technology? How dificult was it to obtain approvals and permits? How difficult was it to obtain funding?

It is far easier to sit back in denial thinking that septic tanks, which include the slightly advanced filtered models, will eventially reverse the underground pollution and clean our drinking water.

But the prior Directors did make those tough decisions to move forward, while the Schicker led Board, moved in the decidedly negative direction which has led directly to bankruptcy of the District, loss of any contol of any project and which will cost each and everyone of us considerably more dollars every month.

Just which "PLAN" was/is better? Which Plan actually was/has started? Which Plan does the District have control of today? Does anyone understand that by today we would have had a completed waster water treatment system and every home in the the PZ would be connected???

Churadogs said...

Inlet sez:"I don't care about TriW versus out of town. What I care about is getting the long-run cheapest solution for our community. Those who have opposed TriW have consistently told us that there is a cheaper option (indeed, you essentially told us this yourself) yet it seems that every time I see an update on the costs, they are higher. Now what does this tell you? It should at least suggest that by 2005, TriW was the cheapest option we had."

IF the old CSD had done what the county is doing now -- i.e. really compare systems -- which Paavo correct observed they did not have the resources to do --do you still think that TriW would be the cheapest option we had? Interestingly, even with 2008 dollars, gravity & Tri W still keeps coming up more expensive than Step/ponds etc. Why is that?

Inlet also sez:"The problem is this ... while all these things are true, those who have told us that these are reasons for stopping TriW have not offered us a package deal that is any better yet .... especially when you consider the costs involved." and" Oh well ... I guess I must be a bad person because I am not simply not willing to believe that there is a better faster and cheaper solution without demonstrated proof ..."

Isn't that what the County is supposed to be doing? Are the TAC reports not "proof" enough for you? Aren't they going to offer us a package deal that's better than Tri W? If you're not happy, stop complaining to me and go contact Paavo and the engineers. Or Maria Kelly, since you and she don't disagree on anything. Tell her to tell Paavo to get off the dime and get you proof RIGHT NOW!!!

As for me, for years I've called for a Chinese Menu option -- present best guestimated plans, let homeowners vote on which one they wanted to buy, with the options having been evaluated without any phony "overriding community values, bait & switchy thumbs on the Scale." Since THAT didn't happen, I've urged that the Process move forward, again sans thumbs on the scales, with the community staying involved and informed as it goes along. That certainly appears to have been happening. Assessment vote done, TAC chugging along, Mark Hutchinson busy with the EIR & etc.WHAT that Process comes up with remains to be seen and WHAT the community picks as the system they want to "buy" with their assessment money, also remains to be seen.

and Inlet also also sez:"I find your unwillingness to pursue all things sewerish disappointing."

You're whining, Inlet. The COUNTY is pursuing all things sewerish. As things pique my interest, I'll comment. But, need I have to point out AGAIN that this blog is called "Calhoun's Can(n)ons," not "All Things Sewerish 24/7."

You want a sewer blog? Start one yourself, let me know the URL and I'll be happy to post links when you've posted something.

Maria M. Kelly said...

O.k, to clarify:
Whatever the county will be able to offer us, in my opinion, isn't comparable to the old mid town site project because it was not just a sewer project. It was a waste water/water project. The discharge and injection wells and the subsequent water management plan that also addressed sea water intrusion, was all encompassing. Getting the plant sited and built was part of phase one.

What the county will provide us with is a waste water project. AB2701 did not give them water authority, only waste water. The county can walk us through an adjudication on the water supply issues but they do not have the authority to address them. Our purveyors do.

If the county project comes in cheaper, I won't be surprised but it will be the first step and then what? We have the structures and agencies in place to address these concerns but my obvious frustration with the CSD is that instead of using the water rate payers funds for bettering the entire infrastructure to address future concerns, and not just pipe in the ground, but rather to fight agencies and for an unidentified return is short sighted.

In closing, I believe Paavo has answered that question in regards to cost. Much of it depends on the terms of the financing and bidding climate. If the old mid town project went to bid now - it would be significantly lower. The next step is waiting for the EIR so let's just relax, enjoy our summers and watch the elections gear up.

Watershed Mark said...

Maria:
Are you speaking with your TAC hat on?
Paavo has still not lived up to his fiduciary duty nor his word regarding review of the RECLAMATOR. BIG MISTAKE...

Also Maria have a look at www.NOwastewater.blogspot.com for the comments by Lou Carella of Carollo and Paavo about "costs".
I esecially like Paavo's "less expensive" statement as it "proves in" the RECLAMATOR. Think pretreatment here.
Been kinda quiet lately, lots going on behind the scenes.

As long as you are sitting back and relaxing perhaps you can eplain why exfiltration as defined in the SLOCO PIS Doc is not being discussed by your TAC...

Shark, get that "I love a big leaky polluting pipe" blog up, it's easy...

I Love L.O.

Maria M. Kelly said...

WM,
I'm speaking as a community member. I know what you are looking for when you ask that. I know what you are attempting to do when you claim that other people haven't lived up to their end of responsibility.

I have been to your website. I personally find it incomplete and a cut and paste of how you want people to perceive your product. Instead of being "the project" now it can be the front end pre-treatment.

How are your discussions going with Golden State to get paid for your "effluent"?

I never said I was sitting back and relaxing. I said we need to relax, meaning don't get worked up into a tizzy and over speculate and wait for the EIR. Are you going to participate in the Design/Build workshop. If you want to participate in this process, that might be a great ideal.

Mark, I don't like what you have brought to this community. I have told you this in person so this will be nothing new to you. Our community is struggling from the confusion and frustration of 30 years of how to accept a large public works project. For some it has become a way of life, for some it forced them to disengage, some were here and involved and have passed away and new folks have jointed the fray. You drive into town in your fancy motor home with the need to toss your hat into the mix and add to the confusion. I resent it. There are other companies out there that can do what your company says it can do but why aren't they here? Why only AES? Have you driven Binscarth, Mitchell, Pine and then over in the # streets to site spec where your appliance can fit - it can't. I'm sure your appliance does what you say it can do - it's MBR. MBR is the hottest product in waste water treatment and water reclamation. It's not about the technology. Individual systems need to be monitored and tested just like big systems. RWQCB would likely require a protocol for testing the effluent - how much does each test cost for each individual system and is that test less than $45.00 per month? Because if it's more, then you will be operating at a loss. Please post how much it costs to run the complete battery of tests that are required for your onsite system. Please list what that tests for. Please list all the testing labs and then find out if they can keep up with say a monthly testing required for 5200 appliances.

And Mark, it's not "my TAC". We are a 14 member committee made up of people who live in Los Osos. We are a committee for the community. We are a cross section from many walks of life with many interests and talents and one agreed upon issue - this community needs waste water treatment. When this issue is resolved there will be positive consequences - no more NOV's, CDO's, CAO's and so on. People will be allowed to remodel their homes, get permits, LEGALLY build a bathroom.

What you bring to the table doesn't really resolve these issues - just lengthens the debate. Join the Chamber, donate some money to a local charity, do some volunteer work, promulgate away, no one is going to stop you but I don't have to like it.

Thank you and have a delightful day.

Ron said...

Maria wrote:

"Whatever the county will be able to offer us, in my opinion, isn't comparable to the old mid town site project because it was not just a sewer project. It was a waste water/water project."

The "old mid town site" was an absolute embarrassment, according to TAC documents, and if that option is anywhere near the upcoming community survey on where Los Osos really wants their sewer plant, that will be a GINORMOUS embarrassment for the county.

The "old mid town site" was a park project that included a sewer plant. That is clear. That is obvious. That is documented from here to the end of my arm. How many times do I have to write this? --> No "project objective for centrally located community amenities," no centrally located sewer plant.

It's that simple.

Maria, have you ever asked yourself this question: When the ponds failed in late 2000, and the footprint of the treatment facility went from about 70 acres to about 5 acres, what was the rationale for retaining the Tri-W site for the second project, when the site needs were so dramatically different than the first?

The answer to that question will blow your mind.

"If the old mid town project went to bid now - it would be significantly lower."

No it wouldn't, because it was never going to work. It was a colossal embarrassment, according to TAC documents. But tell Gordon to keep fighting for it, so he can waste millions of more dollars proving me right, again.

Ann wrote:

"I’m happy that people care enough about a topic to bother to stand up and let their voices be heard. For a country that has enshrined in its Constitution the right of its citizens to speak out freely in the marketplace of ideas, we are a remarkably fearful and silent people. That is never good for a democracy. "

Love it!

Maria M. Kelly said...

It is unclear to me where/when you think Gordon is fighting for a site. Wasn't he the lone vote to look at out of town sites and move the project - I believe it was 4-1. Maybe you could fill me in on the year of that vote Ron.

Read the effluent disposal TM that just came out and then let's talk about whether or not the park was the absolute and only reason. I've looked Ron and I do understand your line of reasoning, I'm just not as certain as you are that that isolated reason is the only reason to be jumping up and down.

To be perfectly honest - I think it was to control growth and not provide a service beyond the USL. In regards to buffers, time has been good to us and we have a nice green belt all the way around now - the siting of the plant now won't has as dramatic an impact regardless. With Broderson and land to the East, designated as green space and permanently taken out of development, our resource demands have been reduced.

It's still a work in progress Ron and I'm sorry that your fixation on Gordon has been so enduring but from my conversations with him - it's about clean water not treatment plant siting. I hope we do end up with some sort of community amenity at the midtown site. We should, that's what everyone asked for at the meeting after the recall - they still wanted a park.

There are a lot of other things I need to get done now. It's been a real treat spending a portion of my morning with you but my dog needs to take me on a walk and I have fun things to do.
Ta-ta.

Watershed Mark said...

Maria wrote: I hope we do end up with some sort of community amenity at the midtown site.

Now you can see why Maria was selected to be on the TAC.
Your tax dollars at work folks...

You may actually see some choices offered but it is clear that the supervisors will be guided by Paavo who will be guided by Carollo who will be guided by the leaky polluting pipe paradigm.

The RECLAMATOR does not produce "effluent".
The RECLAMATOR does "Harvest Water".
Technology makes it possible whether you like it or not.
The membrane is "the test" and the biology is indefinte.
When the biology is disturbed/disrupted the membrane will not permit water to pass from the RECLAMATOR. The service is notified and a technition is disptched to correct the problem.

Please compare this with a leaky polluting pipe and treatment plant failure.

Why isn't the trestment plant data available for say SLO City or the Men's Colony facility?

The customer for the RECLAMATOR Harvest Water is the LOCSD or County. Any entity which requires a hook up will be liable for payment for the Harvest Water.

Ron said...

This is great... I just went and re-read my piece that I link to above (because it's really good), and, being such a fan of contrast, I want to contrast a few things here.

Yin:

TAC member Maria Kelly wrote:

"Whatever the county will be able to offer us, in my opinion, isn't comparable to the old mid town site project"

and;

"If the old mid town project went to bid now - it would be significantly lower. "

Yang:

And the TAC's Fine Screening Report says the following about the Tri-W site:

- "(Tri-W's) downtown location (near library, church, community center) and the high density residential area require that the most expensive treatment technology, site improvements and odor controls be employed."

and;

- "It has high construction costs..." ($55 million. The next highest treatment facility option is estimated at $19 million.)

and;

- "Very high land value and mitigation requirements"

and;

- Tri-W energy requirements: "Highest"

and;

- "Small acreage and location in downtown center of towns (sic) require most expensive treatment"

and;

- "higher costs overall"

and;

- "Limited flexibility for future expansion, upgrades, or alternative energy"

and;

- "Source of community divisiveness"

and;

- "All sites are tributary to the Morro Bay National Estuary and pose a potential risk in the event of failure. Tri-W poses a higher risk..."

and;

- "NOTE: It was the unanimous opinion of the (National Water Research Institute) that an out of town site is better due to problematic issues with the downtown site."

and;

- "ESHA – sensitive dune habitat"

ALL of that is found in the TAC's OWN report.

Now, here's the fun part, Shark Inlet wrote:

"Maria who participates here has never disagreed with me. She knows the TAC reports and what they contain far better than you."

Enjoy your walk.

Watershed Mark said...

Maria ('m not a TAC member for purposes of this discussion) Kelly wrote:
"Instead of being "the project" now it can be the front end pre-treatment."

The RECLAMATOR Solution solves water pollution, conservation and reuse at the souce/onsite at the best price possible.
The RECLAMATOR complies with C26 as "best" available technology
That is why there will never be a sewer pipe in LO/BP.

Maria M. Kelly said...

Had a great walk Ron but am missing your point.
Different projects, different comparisons. There is ESHA out of town on the out of town sites. It is different ESHA and ag land considerations. The proximity to Warden Lake and the creek offer its own set of challenges in the event of a failure. NWRI picked up on the political problems with the downtown site but didn't address the environmental issues. Downtown site has limited ability to grow based on potential demand hence limiting growth, out of town site has flexibility to address future demand - some of this is addressed by the sizing of the plant that gets built but it out of town doesn't have finite capabilities. MBR is the highest cost treatment and was the appropriate technology based on the site and out of town would be expected to have a lower cost technology appropriate for the siting.

Your point? Nice cut-n-paste on content. I was part of the discussions that came to the conclusions and I have no problem with them. Obviously there are options and I pointed out that one had the groundwork to address the resource demands in one way and the other has different location as part of the groundwork for resource demands.

The technology will match the siting and will hopefully be lower in cost. There are some interesting things that could be accomplished with an out of town site - I think the process will bring this out for the community.

I should have said - projects are limited to comparison due to their differences. I'm not afraid of the midtown site and I'm not sure why it bothers you so much that I'm not. I'm not afraid of an out of town site either but am concerned about the folks that live out of town. I'm glad my biases don't match yours. You seem limited in what you are able to address in regards to how the outcomes have multiple benefits and differing benefits.

It is absolutely perfect out for a walk. It's not too cold and the fog is blowing over the bay and it has that great mysteriousness about it and it smells so good and it was just really very cool.

Watershed Mark said...

Maria wrote:The technology will match the siting and will hopefully be lower in cost.

RECLAMATOR, again.

You continue to ignore the leaky polluting pipe, big problem/mistake.
That problem is our oppourtunity to shine.

Watershed Mark said...

Ann Wrote: With the efforts by the SWRCB well underway, consistency and analysis is a key concern, and an EIR process required to provide guidance for local agencies, such as the RWQCB, and information for the public.
How does Water Code 13291 (a) differs from (AB 885 )? And which is being used in formulating the amendments and triwnial review process? AB 885 requires: The adoption of statewide standards or regulations for existing, construction, and performance of onsite sewage disposal systems by the State Water Resources Control Board by January 1, 2004. The standards to apply to any onsite sewage disposal system that:
is constructed or replaced on or after July 1, 2004 (or six months after the adoption date of the regulations, whichever is sooner)
is subject to a major repair
pools or discharges to the surface of the ground
in the judgment of the Regional Water Quality Control Board or the authorized agency has the reasonable potential to cause a violation of water quality objectives, to impair present or future beneficial uses of water, to cause pollution, nuisance, or contamination of waters of the state.
The provision of financial assistance to assist private property owners with existing systems whose cost of compliance with these regulations exceeds one-half of one percent of the value of their property.

...Just wait until the RWQCB begins to address the leaky polluting pipe.

This excerpt taken from a very recent high level meeting between Californai EPA and our group;

California's water issues in order of importance:
1-Nitrogen pollution
2-Water conservation
3-Water reuse

The RECLAMATOR solves all of these issues for less money and in less time than any other technology.

Maria, you stated that there are other technologies that can do what the RECLAMATOR does.

I will challenge you to provide the name and supplier of technology that has achieved the nitrogen series results as performed in 1994 by NSF.
I will pay $1,000.00 dollars to you should you find one to back up your comments.

It appears you are confused about what the RECLAMATOR actually does and how well it works, but then as you said you are biased.

The TRI-W? Really??

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark, maybe you can explain how putting water back into the ground under our homes where it will leak out into the bay as it does now will recharge the lower aquifer? You cannot offset enough saltwater intrusion with less pumping by this sort of reuse. Oh yeah - the pages leading up to page 52 - where are they?

ron, the "problematic issues" with the intown site were trumped up and propagated by the no-sewer people, not the 6 government agencies that signed off on the permits.

The out of town sites have issues with contaminating the watershed and creek which runs into Morro Bay. Everyone screams about the Men's Colony spill - which happened so far away compared to the out of town sites now being considered. There is NO SITE which might not have a spill potential. We have the potential for a 10.0 earthquake five minutes from now.

mark (there-will-never-be-a-sewer-pipe-in LO/BP mark) this is not a request for you to chime in here as your Wrecklamator has no sign-off by the Water Board, so it is meaningless at this point in time. Hey, how's that process going with the Water Board mark?

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

That you suggest I want a leaky polluting pipe just shows that your reading comprehension skills are ... um ... crap.

That you've never addressed the question about whether the RWQCB will require individual (and expensive) tests for each home using a reclamator makes me reluctant to pay any more attention to you and your device until you've got a worked-out agreement with the RWQCB and can tell us how much we'll have to pay total per month.

As for your suggestion that I start my own blog ... might I ask you whether you've started one? If so, why don't you pollute over there instead of here? I presume that Ann could (and would) link to your blog and your comments wouldn't turn off quite as many potential customers.

Shark Inlet said...

Ann,

Why in the world would anyone want to bother having an opinion based on partial information when they could easily get full information?

I see you arguing that you have the right to do just that. Indeed, you do. The sad thing, though, is that in your willingness to ignore cost and engineering and legal considerations and your sloppy thinking when assessing various documents you are showing that you are uninterested in the truth.

Why tell people to watch out and that the train is heading over a cliff if you aren't going to watch out yourself? I suspect even worse ... that it is sloppy thinking and a cult-like unquestioning acceptance of the point of view that there is a better and cheaper solution to our water problems ... that has been the driving force behind our rush over the cliff.

Can you really say that it was a wise choice to vote for the recall? The candidates promised us a fiction. They lied to the voters to get elected. The hosed up things since then so badly that we're an additional $40M in debt (that's about $2500 for every man, woman and child in town). It's a package deal. We voted for the recall and we got what we deserved based on our willingness to trust the untrustworthy.

Even if you didn't care much for the previous board or their decisions ... they were at least willing to put in the time and effort and think thru the situation before making decisions.

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
Hydraulic balancing between the aquifers along with blending and reduced pumping will solve intrusion.

Leaky pipes just pollute...as long as they are in operation...

We are working with every level of government toons so stay tuned.

I'm glad to see that you understand the sewer situation in LO/BP.
This pilot program begins the shift away from the leaky polluting technology that was required to have pretreatment since the 1970's.
Fortunately LO/BP resisted long enough o avoid having a sewer intrusion into its drinking water supply. GOOD SHOW LO/BP...

Shark: You'll simply have to be patient it takes time to turn an entire industry and regulatory paradigm towards the light.

As for pollution of the blogoshpere, I'll leave that to the individual reader to decide for him or herself.

Remember your in the closet while I use my real identity, so I always consider the source;-)

Come on Maria, $1,000.00 for the name of an technology that can do what the RECLAMATOR can do...

Watershed Mark said...

Shark:
You want a county project not knowing what or where it will be.

That's what you voted for on the 218.

Yet you want to criticize others for doing what you claim they do/did.

Talk about comprehendsion...
Too bad you haven't got the stones to blog on your own...

Watershed Mark said...

Shark: if you don't want a leaky sewer what do you want?

Yea, I comprehend there is no "d" in comprehension...spell check victim that I am, working without a net and all...

Maria M. Kelly said...

http://www.foresterpress.com/ow_0703_mbr.html

http://www.gradingandexcavating.com/ow_0707_well.html

http://www.water-technology.net/projects/brightwater/

http://ww.pennnet.com/display_article/268792/64/ARTCL/none/none/1/Compact,-Onsite-MBRs-Growing-in-F&B-Industry/

http://www.wateronline.com/Content/news/article.asp?Bucket=Article&DocID=cf2a49e4-e66c-413d-b7d6-77f7b6ca03a4&VNETCOOKIE=NO

http://www.hdrinc.com/Assets/documents/Publications/Waterscapes/september2005/MBR101.pdf

http://www.nawatersystems.com/en/press/20070924,neoseppilot.htm

This last one is the best - it's a mobile unit! Here's my question Mark, your packaging is different but the technology is the same. Who will be your MBR manufacturer? I have talked to several folks and they all agree that you can manufacture what you are manufacturing with off the shelf products. Unfortunately, they price it out around $35,000-$45,000 per unit. What companies will you contract with to provide the products you will require to build 5200 systems? Can we be guaranteed uniformity among the products even if the manufacturer cannot supply the demand that you will require? A product list of components would be helpful - no trade secrets are given out if you leave out configuration and plus you are patented.

Point is, MBR comes in many packages. Convince us that your packaging is the very best for Los Osos as a component of our water supply issues. What types of agreements would have to be developed with purveyors? Can you give us an example of a purveyor that was required to purchase effluent?

How is your site analysis coming along for our lots? How much will it cost to provide a road worthy tank? How are the easement and right of way discussions heading up? You all must be very busy these days!

I look forward to you being able to clear up some of our questions. Maybe you should start writing a set of TM's to post on your website in response to these and other FAQ's.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

So mark, you got all three water purveyors on board with your plan - ? You calling the shots?

Can you tell me which purveyor is paying you now for your "wreclamated" water?

What's worse - leaky sewer or leaky snake oil?

Your lack of success anywhere else is telling. Never mind - you will pass muster with the Water Board or you won't.

Unknown said...

“There are some interesting things that could be accomplished with an out of town site - I think the process will bring this out for the community.”

Are you speaking of the hidden agenda to develop a regional sewage facility? Barry Tolle said at the last BOS meeting that it would not be cost effective. Thank God! I sure didn’t want to become a crap factory for the county.

Maria,
You say that the TAC represents the community, but this is not true. The TAC was carefully selected to represent the view that Noel King wanted to represent. The original goal of the TAC was to convince the people to support whatever project Public Works wanted. Fortunately we have many knowledgeable citizens who are willing to spend countless hours correcting the errors and omissions in the TAC reports.

Decentralized appears to be the best option. We have plenty of empty lots scattered throughout town. It keeps our water in our basin. With fewer systems requiring testing, it greatly reduces associated costs. Treatment within the tank reduces energy costs. Maybe we can even get a few greenhouses.

Unknown said...

Dear Jane.

Are you suggesting that the CSD or the County or the State "TAKE" the empty lots to install many de-centralized sewer processing plants??? Is it possible that there are actually private OWNERS of those lot and that they have been waiting a loooong time to build their retirement or dream homes??? Why not just tear down the houses we don't want and build all these mini-sewer plants, like maybe starting with yours???

Mike Green said...

Heck, at the rate we've been going and with the price of property falling like it is, it might be cheaper to just eminent domain enough homes to create all septic compliant lots..Thats if we can get it done before the goalposts are moved again.
On a rather wide side-note, on the off chance any entomologist reads this blog, or maybe some reader knows an entomologist, I observed on a walk on the beach on both Montana De Oro and Cayucos beaches the last two days there have been huge amounts of Ladybird Beetles ( red lady bugs) washed up in the surf line, some were still alive.
Seems strange to me that an aphid eating bug went to sea.
I wonder what caused this?

Watershed Mark said...

Maria: I see you like ZeeWeed too bad it doesn’t hold a candle to spiral wound technology. I thought we went through that, but hey, have a look at www.spirasep.com or our engineering report I know yopu don’t posses the requisite knowledge to be “convinced” by it, partly because you’re not an engineer/regulator. So I invite you to try again if you want that $1,000.00.
Nothing you offered uses our biological treatment process design (it’s patented) and nothing fit the individual home flow as does the RECLAMATOR. We are happy you are engaged whether as a citizen or as a TAC Member, It’s refreshing to see you asking questions. We’ll put some thought into answering your questions “no charge” and will post them here or there as needed. Whoever you are talking to regarding the pricing of our technology might not want to see it utilized as the LOSTDEP Solution, otherwise why would they offer pricing. I find it interesting that as a TAC member you are seeking commitments from us but not about/from the technology you are looking at in your technical memos which are produced at the expense of the citizens.
Your point about ZeeWeed and Kubota Membranes is not relevant to the future of water, they rely on leaky polluting pipes which wastes water , money and energy.
You really are watching history being made. We are very busy these days.

Watershed Mark said...

Jane:
Individualized is best. It is the future of water today.

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
You are free to choose anything that will eliminate your discharge.
You don't have to use our service, it is still a free country:)

Fortunately we are still a nation of laws.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE: I think Jane's comments are very apppropriate and yours needless and inapprporiate.

How about a tour of the RECLAMATOR this weekend, buddy? Are you man enough? I thought so...

Watershed Mark said...

Maria:
Remember the Nitrogen Series done by NSF was accomplished without any "intervention" for a six month period. The technologies you used in your reply could never accomplish the denitrification that the BESTEP 10 did in the test.

Come on out of that closet MIKE, it's going to be alright, Man up...

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
Find out about the SLO City Treatment Works during the same period that the Men's Colony Spilled.
You will be stunned...

A RECLAMATOR will never "Spill" because the flow can be controlled.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Jane, you crack me up! "Decentralized appears to be the best option. We have plenty of empty lots scattered throughout town" Wait a minute - this is the town that "voted" out a sewer plant in the "middle of town" and you are proposing little sewer plants all over town -- right in the midst of HOUSES?? Huh???

At least we agree on not wanting a regional crap factory.

mark, your Wrecklamator is not relevant to Los Osos until the Water Board allows it - it didn't fly other places obviously, and it ain't gonna fly here.

Unknown said...

Sorry Mark

This still is NOT your blog. You do NOT get to decide what is appropriate or not! You have NOT provided any PROOF that the reclamator is anything more than a septic tank with a filter. Actually, you haven't even proved that!

As far as your challenges, this is NOT Tombstone Arizona and a high noon shoot out. If I chose to meet you, it won't be under a childish threat. You don't seem to believe that you are turning off a large segment of your potential market. I don't have to prove or disclose anything to you mister, I'm not trying to sell you anything! It is you trying to sell that modified septic tank to all of Los Osos! Your sales tactics stink as much as your toy sewer!!!

Churadogs said...

Inlet sez:"Even if you didn't care much for the previous board or their decisions ... they were at least willing to put in the time and effort and think thru the situation before making decisions."

actually, what the previous board did was to gamble with the homeowner's money and lives in an effort to force an election their way by starting that project before the recall election. They didn't have to do that. They deliberately CHOSE to do that. Had they thought through the consequences of that action before making a decision, they would have held off and, ironically, might well have "won" the recall election. And they certainly wouldn't have stuck the community with millions in wasted "start up" money.So your praise of that board majority is sadly misplaced, IMHO.

Mike Green sez:"I observed on a walk on the beach on both Montana De Oro and Cayucos beaches the last two days there have been huge amounts of Ladybird Beetles ( red lady bugs) washed up in the surf line, some were still alive.
Seems strange to me that an aphid eating bug went to sea.
I wonder what caused this?"

These are Los Osos Sewe-Watching Ladybugs and, like lemmings, every so often they get a total overdose of all things Sewerish and they flee by the millions to fling themselves off the Montana de Oro cliffs, their little high-pitched voices shrieking, Ooooo Noooooo! Enough! Enough! Enough!. Most fall into the sea and drown but a few have second thoughts and paddle for shore. Poor dear little critters. I can't say I blame them.

Shark Inlet said...

Ann,

I just had to giggle when you wrote (subtle changes emphasized) that what the "board did was to gamble with the homeowner's money and lives ... by stopping that project after the recall election. They didn't have to do that. They deliberately CHOSE to do that. Had they thought through the consequences of that action before making a decision, they would have held off and, ironically, might well have "won" the opportunity to 'move the sewer'. And they certainly wouldn't have stuck the community with millions in fines and legal bills. So your praise of the recall board majority is sadly misplaced, IMHO."

Perhaps you don't see the irony of your choice to criticize the board for their poorly thought out and rash decision ... but many of us do.

Again, this whole thing boils down to whether one has spent time considering the technology and financial realities. I don't know of a single person who has put in the time who still thinks the recall was a wise choice.

Your reaction to my messages criticizing the recall makes me think you still support it. Lemmie ask you yet again ... are we better off now with the County process and project and LOCSD mess than we would have been had the recall failed? If the answer is "no" or "likely not" you've gotta ask whether the recall candidates really had a plan. Heck, even if you think we are better off, you should still wonder whether the recall candidates told us the truth when they said they had a $100/month plan. After all, if the Solutions Group deserves criticism for saying they have a $38/month plan that the actually presented to us for our inspection ...

Here's another funny thing ... Richard has stepped up several times and said that he made the decision that you here criticize him for doing and he is pretty quick to admit that if they had chosen an earlier date for the recall election the recall might have failed. I have yet to see Chuck or Steve step up and similarly say "well, we were a bit rash when we stopped TriW a day after being sworn in and before we had taken any counsel from the district attorney and GM or anyone else who understood the full implications of stopping TriW."

Watershed Mark said...

Toons wrote: mark, your Wrecklamator is not relevant to Los Osos until the Water Board allows it - it didn't fly other places obviously, and it ain't gonna fly here.

Care to make a bet?

MIKE: I thought so... -Salesmanship is not required to eliminate the discharge of pollutants. Technology required by law is.
BTW: It is not your blog either...neener/neener. Let's get together for a cup of coffee at Starbucks, my treat. Then we can compare knowledge regarding biological treatment and system design. I'm certain that when you bring all your questions and an open mind you will lose your bias regarding the RECLAMATOR.
Pecking away on blog does not provide for the type of exchanges needed to illuminate the technology.
The "government" agencies do not rely on blogs to become educated neither should you.

Maria Kelly has demonstrated her bias and lack of understanding when she responded to my challenge.
That is a good thing. Why isn't the TAC reviewing the RECLAMATOR?

Watershed Mark said...

Shark wrote:Again, this whole thing boils down to whether one has spent time considering the technology and financial realities.

Deja vu...The RECLAMATOR is not a plan, it is a propsal ready to be executed. Pandora never had the abilty to execute. She didn't own technology and had no experience with wastewater. Engineering and construction companies "love a green light" on a 40 mile deep trench project. So many unknowns once the project is started it must be completed. Don't forget the miles of onsite to the center of the street trenching that is not included in the cost of the project the county is "studying", those cost will be on you. The TRI-W was a very unique event, the first default on SRF funds and the new board will be proud they acted responsibly while the old board ought to be ashamed of themselves, like you Shark.

The LOSTEDEP RECLAMATOR Solution is $15,000.00 per DUE and $45.75 per month. This is per contract not a dream.

Shark you seem addicted to talking about eliminating your discharge instead of acting to to eliminate it. Why?

Maria M. Kelly said...

http://www.innovationmagazine.com/innovation/volumes/v8n1/coverstory2.shtml

Mark,
Are you serious? Why would the TAC review the appliance? It's just an appliance! It's not a plan, it's a proposal. The TAC is reviewing components to waste water treatment and the company you promulgate for has yet to identify how it fits into the process. If you only need to sell your product to individuals, then you don't need the county or the review! You just need to make sure that you can install said appliances in the county right of ways.
Let us know how that's going for you. Oh never mind, I'll just check in with them myself and see if I can get one permitted on my property. What happens if I get denied!

Mike Green said...

Mark:
"The LOSTEDEP RECLAMATOR Solution is $15,000.00 per DUE and $45.75 per month. This is per contract not a dream."

Unless you can come up with that rescinded "Notice of Violation" from the water board your device would be 15k plus 25k plus 45.75/month plus whatever the O&M bill for the community system is plus whatever costs are associated with power to run it.
No dream for sure! Nightmare.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

'shed m says:
"The TRI-W was a very unique event, the first default on SRF funds and the new board will be proud they acted responsibly while the old board ought to be ashamed of themselves, like you Shark."

How do you spin $40 million in debt and laughing stock status county-wide as a good thing? Regardless of what happens with your Wrecklamator, that part of repayment and history remains.

Gee you were here back in the 90's - why didn't your Wrecklamator fly then and spare us all of this - ha-ha.

Unknown said...

Mike said:
“Dear Jane.

Are you suggesting that the CSD or the County or the State "TAKE" the empty lots to install many de-centralized sewer processing plants??? Is it possible that there are actually private OWNERS of those lot and that they have been waiting a loooong time to build their retirement or dream homes??? Why not just tear down the houses we don't want and build all these mini-sewer plants, like maybe starting with yours???”


Dear Mike,
The vast majority of empty lots in the PZ were purchased by speculators, insiders in construction or real estate, who were well aware of the sneaky backroom deals occurring in the early 80s. The ones that would prove the most beneficial for decentralized are the ones in the lower lying areas…….no view, and certainly not next to the estuary. Not being big sellers, I bet many of these have not changed hands, and the owners have no intention of ever living on the lot. They just want a profit on their investment.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

jane, if as many have asserted, people really objected to the mid-town site, why do you think that those same people would not mind living next door to one of those things?

Or are you saying that THAT objection was really a trumped-up reason to support the "we hate the cost" or "we don't want a sewer" reasons, and people really ARE fine with living next door to one of those things.

I seem to recall Mr. Decentralized Lombardo's price was greater than what we have assessed ourselves now.

Please clarify.

Watershed Mark said...

Maria:
The link you provided talked about bio fouling of membrane which is a big drawback to the ZeeWeed and Kubota systems.
They both plunge hollow fiber membrane into a very high MLSS mixed liquor as high as 16,000.

Our process passes treated water containing less than 5/5/5 BOD/TSS/TN through the spiral wound membrane, which is unique.
I’m certain you can see the benefits of such a process.

The County's TAC should review the RECLAMATOR because that is what the law requires. Wait and see...
The RECLAMATOR is installed on private property at the "point" of the source.
We already have the permit precedent accomplished, it's on our website.

Mike Green: When there is no longer a discharge of pollutants the NOV/CDO is mute.

Some still may want to "hang on" to that strategy of taking a known point source and converting it to a leaking sewer pipe/non-point source of pollution.

With the law now squarely on the table it will be impossible to build any sewerage without pretreatment.

In the LOSTDEP the Pretreatment is so good that no sewerage is required. If a RECLAMATOR customer is required to "hook up" the resource of value/harvest water would be paid for by the enity demanding the hook up. Neat huh?

As regulators and governments become more familiar with the law and the technology required by it, everyone, including you and your TAC will be will need to understand that best available demonstrated control technology is something other than a publically owned treatment works hooked onto the end of a leaky polluting pipe.

Two questions Maria:
1-How does a pipe that may leak 500 gpd per mile per diameter inch of pipe, at the time of construction, before it is buried, qualify as a transportation device for raw sewage in a prohibition zone?
2-What technology is your TAC studying that guarantees the 7 mg/l total nitrogen monthly average/not to exceed 10 mg/l per day? By name brand?

Also, given state water law 13360 manner of compliance a sewer continually referred to by CCRWQCB seems a bit “conflicted”. But that’s something that will need addressing sooner rather than later.
The county conflict of interest seems a bit obvious as a vote in favor of a public works project would ultimately benefit the county itself in several ways. Again, this will need to be addressed sooner rather than later.

So you see we really are working with the government agencies on more than one level.

Watershed Mark said...

Toons: LO/BP is positioned to become the leader in water purification/conservation/reuse by following the law.

The suits brought against the LOCSD are directly due to not following the law.

Those suits will pale by comparison should the law not be followed today.

He who laughs last...

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark, you are so out of the loop. There are gravity sewer pipes dug up 20 years later that show no sign of leakage at all. You just keep harping on how you want to spin gravity pipes to suit your desires for sales. Sure, old, unmaintained pipes fail - as does anything not maintained.

When the Water Board signs off on your Wrecklamator, fine - until then - you are just taking up blog space with a sales pitch that isn't really winning you anything but distrust.

BTW, failing to meet the time schedule order is what got the Water Board going against the LOCSD. There is one suit on that - and the one on the phony-baloney Measure B. The rest of the suits are non-Water Board issues -the suits for stiffing the contractors, bankruptcy, and the misuse of public funds. Yup, the new Board did NOT follow the law, that is clear. Thank you for bringing that up!

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
Show me the sewer pipe that was dug up that didn't leak.
The November 2007 SLOCO PIS Doc is what I'm using to prove leakage.

Add an earthquake and BAM! you've got real problems, in your drinking water supply.

What constitutes maintenance of a sewer pipe?
How is leakage measured?
How is it repaired?
Who pays for the maintenance and repair?

If they are built to leak, what is the threshold for repair/replacement?

When there is no sewer there is no problem.

The WB issued a CDO against the LOCSD in Nov. 1999 for the two community systems that are not covered by AB2701. So what WB time schedule are you referring to?

Actually Toons, the LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution IS right on step. Wait and see.

Watershed Mark said...

Toons: Here is where Ron ROCKS!:In conclusion...

How can the people of Los Osos be expected to have any confidence in the judgement of the county's Los Osos Waste Water Technical Advisory Committee, when one of its most visible members publicly writes "opinions" that are the exact opposite of what their own reports show?

I think everyone will agree he is "in the loop"...

Nicely done Crawford!! Nicely done.

Watershed Mark said...

The above excerpt:
Now playing at a SewerWatch near you.

Watershed Mark said...

Mike Green:
Any sewer that the county contemplates will require pretreatment.
As stated previously pretreatment technology these days is so good it offers post/tertiary treatment that eliminates the need for a sewer pipe.

Should the county actually go forward with a project the 25,000.00 assessment would more than cover the cost of the RECLAMATOR...

Watershed Mark said...

Speaking of time limits Toons, the LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution will beat the 2011 deadline that an outdated/obsolete sewerage scheme will not.

Why would an agency charged with controling pollutants be interested in a leaky pipe that will allow five more years of septic tank discharge when a technology that can eliminate that discharge beginning immediately?

That is the question.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Prove it to the Water Board. Give them the 10 years of data which you surely must have completed by at least 2005 and we'll see.

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
Show me the law which requires "TEN YEARS OF DATA".

The quality of our technology which we provide as a service is not in doubt.

Wait and see.

As regulators and governments become more familiar with the law and the technology required by it, everyone, including you and your TAC will be will need to understand that best available demonstrated control technology is something other than a publically owned treatment works hooked onto the end of a leaky polluting pipe.

So you don't have to...

How does a pipe that may leak 500 gpd per mile per diameter inch of pipe, at the time of construction, before it is buried, qualify as a transportation device for raw sewage in a prohibition zone?

Common sense tells us "it can't"...
I'm interested why it is still being studied.

Churadogs said...

Inlet sez:"Your reaction to my messages criticizing the recall makes me think you still support it. Lemmie ask you yet again ... are we better off now with the County process and project and LOCSD mess than we would have been had the recall failed? If the answer is "no" or "likely not" you've gotta ask whether the recall candidates really had a plan."

Regarding being "better off now," I can only say, "We'll see. The Process isn't done yet." As for the rest, I have called for a Truth & Reconciliation Hearing and/or a serious investigation by the Feds into how the SRF program was being run and/or a full investigation of the RWQCB's activiities, and/or the Coastal Commission's "bait & switchy" decision, And/or the Breach of Contrtact lawsuit going forward -- with subpoena power, perjury penalties & etc. for all the players -- because this community STILL doesn't have truthful answers on a whole series of interlinked questions. And until those questions are truthfully answered, the beginning and the ending of this "story" won't be known, and so it will be impossible to conclude anything about what happened here, for good or ill.

Watershed Mark said...

Regarding being "better off now," I can only say, "We'll see. The Process isn't done yet." As for the rest, I have called for a Truth & Reconciliation Hearing and/or a serious investigation by the Feds into how the SRF program was being run and/or a full investigation of the RWQCB's activiities, and/or the Coastal Commission's "bait & switchy" decision, And/or the Breach of Contrtact lawsuit going forward -- with subpoena power, perjury penalties & etc. for all the players -- because this community STILL doesn't have truthful answers on a whole series of interlinked questions.

VERY WELL WRITTEN, Ann!

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE.
THIS TIME AROUND FOR SURE!
This time we play for keeps!

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Ann says:
"I have called for a Truth & Reconciliation Hearing and/or a serious investigation by the Feds into how the SRF program was being run and/or a full investigation of the RWQCB's activiities, and/or the Coastal Commission's "bait & switchy" decision, And/or the Breach of Contrtact lawsuit going forward -- with subpoena power, perjury penalties & etc. for all the players…"

Is this on your own or is this another PZLDF extravaganza requiring CSD participation in which we the zone water rate payers will get bilked for costs? With what agency(ies?) have you (PZLDF?) filed the paperwork?

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:

When there are better citizens there will be better governance.
When you seek to minimize, you diminish yourself.

Ann is a "Patriot".
A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right. When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon.
Thomas Paine

Watershed Mark said...

The county's consulting engineer's study of obsolete leaky polluting sewerage seeks to "bilk you senseless". It needlessly wastes your water, energy and time.
They know it you should too.

Shark Inlet said...

Were officers in the Third Reich patriots? Is Richard LeGros?

Somehow the facts need to play a role here in determining what is best for Los Osos. The question is ... was the recall a smart thing to do. I would claim that if the ultimate answer is that we pay more per month (including any cost to settle debts and lawsuits) than what TriW was gonna cost (or the $100/month we were promised ... you pick) and if the services we get for that fee are the same or less, the recall was a failure.

The writing is on the wall about this one ... the question is how long it will take Belshazzar to understand and whether even then he'll admit his errors.

Watershed Mark said...

Factor in the time you paid "nada"...

The RECALL was the correct thing to do. Sewer Parks are for losers, RECLAMATORS are for World Visionaries:)

Mike Green said...

Mark, just how much carbon does it take to build a reclamator? and how much electrical power to run? so compare that to, lets say a composting toilet or perhaps a urine sequestering toilet.
Visionaries, I would think, would look at the bigger picture, and just what are those "pre treatment" requirements?
Wouldn't a STEP system accomplish that?
(along with solving your "leaky" complaint?)
The bottom line about the recall is if we end up paying more or not
more= failure.
less= good.
I noticed you didn't dispute my projected cost estimate, just the validity of the NOV. Fair enough, so what kind of plan do you have for us normal non-visionary homeowners to escape the assessment bill?
Tell the county to pound sand and sue?
No thanks, suing has been a very bad choice as of late.
You are going to have to address that problem first.

Watershed Mark said...

Mike:
Sequestering and compost toilets just don't fit into the 21st century, at least my vision of it.

While unlimited onsite water reuse that take toilets, no matter how many gallons per flush they use, off the water supply grid does.

Any project will have pretreatment as a component as is required by law.

A complete solution which includes the ability to reuse your water onsite over and over again costs $15,000.00 and 45.75 month. Why would/should/could anything else need to be built.

Do you think the county could build 40+ miles of sewer for $25,000 per DUE? What about the on site costs not part of the assessment?

As far as carbon footptint the RECLAMATOR solution is at least one half that of any other solution in construction and much less for operation. About as much energy as it takes to operate an energystar efficient refrigerator.

Fortunately we are still a nation of laws.

Tell the government to pound sand and sue...I like it.

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
Show me the law that mandates a sewer pipe.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

I find it really awesome that you want to take actions to challenge the government's authority.

I just wish you wouldn't do it in my town and essentially on my dime. If you would either work with the RWQCB to get an agreement or sue them yourself to get an agreement ... then come to us and explain how freakin' awesome your system is.

Until you've got approval from the RWQCB that your systems can be used as the sole source of wastewater treatment in the PZ you won't find many buyers of your service.


By the way, you seem to continually misunderstand the 10 years comment. Lemmie 'splain it to you. The RWQCB in the past has indicated that they would view a 10 year record of nitrates reduced to acceptable levels as sufficient evidence that a system would work for Los Osos. Presumably one cannot hard-code the answer to every question into law so regulators have the ability to make reasonable decisions. In this case, the requirement that a system have a 10 year track record seems quite reasonable.

Perhaps you would disagree and view a 6 month set of test results as sufficient proof of a long-term benefit ... but it is you who either needs to convince the RWQCB or to sue them to compel them to consider your 6 months of data on one house as proof.

Unknown said...

Sewertoons.
There is a huge difference between having raw sewage pumped into the middle of town, and having the primary treatment in septic tanks with the effluent treated at in town sites. The floaters stay in the septic tank.

Many green builders have shown innovative directions that we could go. I realize that some people have to be dragged into the future, kicking and screaming the whole way, but I think that there are enough open-minded and courageous people to make a go of it.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

jane, explain to me how this wouldn't smell bad - that was one of the main objections to the "mid-town" site. Pumping a septic tank stinks. Imagine if everyone pumped as often as would be mandated, which surely does NOT happen now. What about the diesel fumes from all those pump trucks and emissions from maintenance trucks? Also, pee stinks. Do they propose the same level of odor mitigation as the old plan? These lots are pretty jammed in. Does a package plant need two lots, four lots, six lots? An acre? All those little hi ground points for step exhaust - what was it - a thousand? Filters over each one - just what is the maintenance on that aspect alone?

And what about the cost - I heard Lombardo's plan was more than what we assessed ourselves for.

Suppose a person didn't want to sell their lot? Eminent domain? Now that'll go over big in this town!

Watershed Mark said...

The CCRWQCB actions regarding the LOSTDEP "reasonable"? We shall see.
The trouble with citizens splainin' government actions is "mis" interpretations of what is and what is not legal or fair under the equal protection of the 14th amendment.

You'll soon see Shark it is all about the law.

You are misinformed about what an NSF certification is and is not.
Where is the citizens treatment works data?
Where is the data regarding how much sewerage leaks? Seems that would be useful in the LOSTDEP Solution.But that's just my opinion...

When administrative remedies have been exhausted time to take the next step in the LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution. Not just my opinion.

Mike Green said...

So uh Marko, just WHEN do you expect all your "administrative" remedies to BE exhausted?

I'll make you a bet.
I'll bet one dozen Carlock donuts that the State and the county can delay any challenge by you until WAAAY after the county project is approved by the San Luis Obispo county board of supervisors.

The county has already ponied up a few million on this, let alone a law signed by the Governator hisself.

And you think we will get on the sue wagon with you?

Why?

Law? give me a break, or instead, show me one single example that makes your case.

Watershed Mark said...

MG:
A Sewer will lower your standard of living.
Me and mine won't be standing idly by while gubment attempts to take a bite out of "the bear". Not on my watch.

Do want you want, it's a free country.

Donuts aren't that good for your health even though Carlock's make them good...

How about you lay down say $300.00/month for life against our suceeding with a judicial remedy?

Do we have a bet?

"Salvos begin in a short"...

Watershed Mark said...

Toons wrote:And what about the cost - I heard Lombardo's plan was more than what we assessed ourselves for.

Toons, do you really think a 40 mile sewer can be constructed for what you assessed yourself?

Your answer to that question will say it all...

Remember, Maria wants a sewer park at that site formally known as the TRI-W.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

The bet you should have with Mikey shouldn't be about whether you can ultimately, eventually, win in a court but whether you can win and win the appeal (if necessary) and win a lawsuit which would allow the County to consider reclamators as a way of meeting AB2701 requirements (if necessary) soon enough that the County can reasonably consider your devices without causing any delay in our solution.

I also find it troubling that you yet again haven't answered some very clear and very relevant questions raised by one interested in the answers.

It is almost as if you only want to tell us good things about your product but are reluctant to tell us details. What is oddest about this is that you then insult us for not trusting you or not being experts.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

shark,
mark never took marketing in school! It wasn't offered in the Snake Oil degree program where he graduated Summa Cum Laude!! Sorry, couldn't resist…

Mike Green said...

Marks problem, as I see it, is he (along with a lot of other people) thinks the letter of the law trumps politics.

That's too bad, even if his appliance works like he says ( and I'm not implying it wont ) the negative drama of his personality will cause it to fail.
History is littered with the carcasses of great ideas that had bad marketing.
Los Osos is littered with the carcasses of better faster cheaper promises.

Shark Inlet said...

Mikey,

The funny thing is that even the letter of the law isn't necessarily on Mark's side ... sure he thinks it is, but he also thinks that one home monitored over six months proves that his device will work forever on all homes without error.

Watershed Mark said...

The LOSTDEP NRECLAMATOR is a best, faster, less expensive, water conservation,energy conservation, carbon foot print reuction, legal solution.

Why isn't the county reviewing it as Paavo stated he would in the Tribune several times?

I guess only those against the TRI-W are held accoutable on the editorial page.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Let me help you out. I suspect that the likely reason that the County isn't reviewing reclamators is that you've given them exactly the same info that you've given us (you know, not providing the details we ask for) and that you've treated them with the same respect you've shown us (you know, to call us fools if we request information).

Essentially, I suspect the County has reviewed all the information they've been provided and to be in the running in the County process, you need to provide additional information ... perhaps something like RWQCB approval for your devices to be used as a sole method of treatment.

As we've always said, if you provide us a realistic option and offer convincing evidence that our problems, wastewater and political, will be solved by your device we'll buy. You seem to keep forgetting that we've been burned many times by folks promising us a better way. It would be natural for folks in Los Osos to be reluctant to believe the new guy without some evidence.

Why do you not get it? Why do you think that providing people half information about one short term test of your device should convince them that the device will work in all places in all cases and forever?

Watershed Mark said...

Shark:
Consulting engineers never built thesame design twice.
They make their money redisgning the wheel.

What Biological process design has been offered so far by Carollo which guarantees the nitrogen limits?

We have our design tested and operatial, they don't.
That is a very sharp point, wait and see.

Where is the ten years of data from the county consulting engineer's design?

The county hasn't officially acknowledged our design yet. When it does, game over.
What part of this don't you understand?

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Why would the County have to acknowledge every vendors' proprietary design? If they did, we'd never get water clean-up. Maybe this is what the County understands and follows if you haven't heard from them mark, or if you never do.

Anyway, WHICH County consulting engineer's design are you referring to?

Watershed Mark said...

How ABOUT THYE ONESWITH TEN YEARS DATA.
Mem's Club too. "leaky pipe while we are at it.

How about some actual operating and maintenace costs study report.
Don't forget ther lift stations (5,200 for step/stag). Don't really know how many for tw sewerpark.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

No mark, by name - which specific designs - you got one, the "Mem's Club," but what are the others?

There is tons of data out there on the type of equipment used at the "Mem's Club" as it has been tested for years and used all over the world. It isn't new.

BTW - it is the Men's Colony and it is not a resort.

Check the TAC reports for OUR VARIOUS PROJECTS proposed O & M costs.

mark, you still haven't addressed my comment about our water leaching out into the bay, due to the high water table because of the septics. How would your device stop that? No matter where the water came from, it isn't going back to the lower aquifer on site. The average household water use is 105 gallons per person per day. The water not used for gardening could go for treatment and be returned to Broderson, the quickest path to the lower aquifer without injection wells.

Unknown said...

HEY MARK! WAKE UP!

You have completely turned sideways to misdirect (yet again) any sort of meaningful answer to Shark. You have not even tried to answer. Spinning your head around seventeen times and trying to deflect questions to the County? That sure is a great answer, but then the County doesn't have to prove that their design, any design, will work.

BUT, the Reclamator? Just what is it and where has it been proven to actually work?

Do yourself a favor and actually try to answer just the questions about the reclamator. Don't try to point out any percieved flaws with any other product. It just makes you look like a fool trying to hide all the flaws in your own product. Right now, few people believe enough in the unknown reclamator to put money on the table.

Just answer Shark's questions!

Watershed Mark said...

Toons:
Hook me up with some of the tons of data.

The Men's Club aka Colony Facility was a recent Carollo design. Let's see that data including operational expense.

The TM's are are anicdotal and estimated. Can you provide somthing more "hard"?

Like: So many pumps at so many kWh per day kind of thing...

Do your TM's have anything like that? After all these are engineers whoi are being paid to write these reports.

Where is the empirical data?
Why all the "guesstimates"?

MIKE:

The county doesn't have to prove that their design, any design, will work. STUPIDITY REVEALED, again:)

When are you going to fire up that "I couldn't care less what government does to me or mine" Blogspot?

Pointing out mistakes and flaws is all part of the LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution, MIKE. Where have you been?

If "right now" isn't good time, perhaps later, maybe.
Or just stick with the county's consulting engineer's study of leaky polluting sewerage.
If it's good enough for Paavo(who will not be "paying for it")it should be good enough for you.
Does $300.00 a month after taxes sound good to you?

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Does getting fined by the Water Board up to $5,000 a day sound good? I'm so darn bored saying this again, but here goes: Show us that the Water Board agrees with you and approves your system and we'll listen.

BTW an electronically controlled generator went down due to a bad part at the Men's Colony -- which had nothing to do with the design.

mark, YOU are the one trying to prove to us how lousy a gravity fed traditional system is - You show US that data - YOU are trying to convince us to use your system, remember?

Unknown said...

Is there ANY factual, verified data that the reclamator actually does anything more than a standard septic tank? What happens when the spiral filter clogs, or the outlet clogs or the aerator pump corrodes or a faulty tank seam splits in an earthquake or a car drives up on one of the lids??? Oh, that's right St.Mark has assured the world that the reclamator would never ever fail!

Guess the we'll have to wait for the County and State to address those minor items as we will never hear Mark provide any answers. Besides, Mark's to busy deflecting questions from 'toons and Shark.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE: I suppose you have not looked at the engineering report located on our homepage.

I like that you are beginning to ask questions.

Toons, seems you are having trouble finding any data which might "prove out" sewerage. Keep looking.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

I'm not looking for data mark, YOU are, remember?

Shark Inlet said...

Perhaps Mark doesn't understand the scientific method. He seems to think that we should just believe his claims without evidence. Let me suggest that this approach has been a dismal failure across history, from bloodletting to Pons and Fleischman.

Of course, like in science, Mark is quite welcome to provide his data ... in context ... to attempt to verify his claims. Presumably he does have more than one dataset obtained in a context he says that we need to file a FOIA request to obtain if he wants to convince the Los Osos public.

Of course, he always has the comeback "well, sewers leak, it's proven" or some such. The interesting issue then is this ... a sewer will meet the requirements of various regulators like the County and RWQCB. Even if not perfect, they will solve our legal issues and will do quite a bit toward cleaning up our aquifer.

Perhaps Mark doesn't understand that he's asking us both to trust him without any proof and to trust his ability to finesse a legal and regulatory mess that is very complex.

I remain unconvinced.

I predict that in response to this message (should Mark respond) he will suggest that I love big leaky pipes (which I don't but would be irrelevant even if I did) or that I should demand data of others that their method is better than his which I might be willing to do if he simply put his cards on the table.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Shark, perfectly summed up in a nutshell. Thank you.

*PG-13 said...

Hi all. My name is *PG-13. And I'm a boinker. I haven't boinked for 17 days, 12 hours and 32 minutes.

Seems like a lifetime. The first few days were easy. No problem. Now I'm jonesing for a boink. Just one. Just one seriously good boink. Then I'll be fine. Really I will. I can do it. I can stop whenever I want. Or whenever the RWQCB certifies the Reclamator. Or builds a sewer. Whichever comes first.

........ Ahhhh, who am I kidding? My only hope is for Ann to write about puppies and kittens, or the sound of bee's and the smell of flowers in the air, or something about butterfly's.