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Thursday, January 29, 2009

Les Miz From A New Perspective

From the Feature Story at http://www.plumbingengineer.com/. Great take on Victor Hugo’s great book. Look out, here comes Jean Valjean with Inspector Javert of the RWQCB right behind him.

The Intestine of Leviathan: a philosophy of the sewer
By Dan Cole
The first and only time I have come across any kind of a philosophical treatment of the sewer was when I read Victor Hugo's Les Miserables. Initially, I read it with amusement, figuring that only in a book with such a title would one find this subject matter and that it was only there to prepare the reader for Jean Valjean's great escape.
Yet, in revisiting the story, I began to realize that Hugo is indeed offering to the reader a serious philosophy of the sewer. As a literary artist, Victor Hugo strings metaphor with metaphor to link the reader to a philosophical view of what the sewer means for civilization, as well as for the individual. Hugo uses Hobbes's metaphoric Leviathan as the proper name for the commonwealth and applies it to the city of Paris. Leviathan's intestine refers to the network of sewers inside the "gut" of the city. Although philosophy arises out of history, it abstracts from history a timeless/transcendent meaning and significance. We wish to unpack this abstraction and see what meaning and significance Victor Hugo sees in the sewer and whether it still speaks to us today.
The sewer is a mistake.This is Hugo's axiological claim of the sewer: It is a mistake. The fault lies in the disrupting effect the sewer has on the human and agricultural life cycle, in which excrement plays a vital part. To the urbanized reader, this will sound quite bizarre, because he has been preconditioned by a post-modern philosophy of the sewer. Being removed from the life of agriculture and having lost a natural instinct of crops, cattle and soil, the urban dweller thinks nothing of the sewer. It is out of sight and out of mind (until it backs up). To him it represents everything unclean and foul that is to be removed from his social environment through this conduit. This philosophy sees excrement as detritus (waste, trash) and readily identifies with Hugo's picturesque adjectives of "heaps of garbage," "tumbrels of mire" and "fetid streams of subterranean slime."
Hugo's philosophical perspective sees excrement as residuum (surplus, product). He is instructing us in what the Chinese have known for centuries: namely, that the most effective manure is that of man. It yields a hundred and twenty-fold in crops. He further claims that if all the human and animal manure were restored to the land instead of being thrown into the water, it would suffice to nourish the world. This is no small claim. The residuum nutrients, stercoraries, are the wealth of nations. In an eloquent stream of metaphors this wealth is expressed as "the flowering meadow; it is the green grass; it is marjoram and thyme and sage; it is game; it is cattle, it is the satisfied low of huge oxen at evening; it is perfumed hay; it is golden corn; it is bread on your table; it is warm blood in your veins; it is health; it is joy; it is life." This is the cycle of life. The nutrients of the furrowed soil arise in the crops, which feed the cattle as well as people. The nutrients of the soil transform into the nutrients of the blood, bringing life to the body. Stercoraries are eliminated from the body to return to the ground and feed the soil. The nutrition of the plains makes the nourishment of man.
The sewer breaks this life chain and starves the soil. The very substance of the people is carried away by the vomiting of sewers into rivers and from the rivers to lakes and oceans. This is not without a price. By the late 19th century, Hugo reported that France liquidated hundreds of millions into the Atlantic every year and that each hiccough of cloacae costs a thousand francs.
The sewer, economically speaking, makes the city a leaky basket. The amount of leakage is comparable to a quarter amount of governmental expenses. Hence, what could be the public fortune is found in the sewer. The net effect is an impoverishing of land, causing hunger, and the infecting of water, causing disease.
Hugo does offer an alternative to the sewer with a cost effectiveness that would double the splendor of Paris. He had in mind a double-functioning drainage system, already operative in the villages of England at that time that would bring pure water from the fields into the city and send back into the fields the residuum of the city (what he calls the rich water).
The history of the sewer reflects the history of men. Hugo further impugns the sewer by comparing it to the historic Gemoniae. In the Annals of Tacitus, this was a flight of stairs where executions took place. Death was by strangulation, and the bodies were flung down the stairs to rot, scavenged by dogs and eventually thrown into the River Tiber. So, also, the sewers of Paris reflect a terrible history of death. Pestilence was born there and despots died there. Again, a litany of metaphors depicts this history of death for the sewer. The sewer "has been a sepulcher; it has been an asylum. Crime, intelligence, social protest, liberty of conscience, thought, theft, all that human laws pursue or have pursued, have hidden in this hole."
The history of death passes through the sewer. That which is poured on the ground filters down into the open channels of the sewer. Hugo thinks of the blood of the St. Bartholomew massacre, public assassinations, political and religious butcheries and the washing of bloody hands.
These social historic catastrophes are also embraced by the philosophy of the sewer. The sewer not only disrupts the cycle of life but also reproduces the city and, with the mire, reproduces its customs. It recognizes everything "finding in what remains what has been, the good, the ill, the false, the true, the stain of blood in the palace, the blot of ink in the cavern, the drop of grease in the brothel ... orgies spewed out ... the trace of prostitution ..."
As pointed out earlier, to the urbanite the sewer represents everything unclean and foul, and we do not like to think upon these things, for it reflects a dark side to human history.
The sewer is the conscience of the city. Emerging from this history of the sewer, Hugo discloses his moral philosophy of the sewer. Ethically, the sewer is a cynic in that it is painstakingly indifferent and tells all. As the conscience is the judgment seat for truth telling, the sewer is no liar and hides no secrets. The sewer declares what the individual tries to hide. It possesses the real and definitive form of human habit behind false appearances. The sewer is a place of confessing the secrets thrown away in it.
Such diversity of habits and customs can be found in the sewer. There is a stump of a bottle revealing drunkenness or a handle of a basket revealing domestic life. Within merges the spittle, the vomit, the fetus. The sewer is more of a recollection of vices than anything else is. Cigarette butts reveal the addiction to tobacco. Grease laden waste lines indicate the culprit behind the social problem of obesity. Sexual liaisons utilize the sewer to dispense the evidence of condoms. The sewer is the disposal port for unwanted or expired drugs. Sanitary napkins disclose the monthly menses. Almost anything imaginable has been discarded into the sewer, anything we wish never to see again or to be found out. Yet plumbers know.
As a conscience, the sewer reveals the dismal side of human habits and social behavior, divulging all their hidden secrets. These again are things that we do not wish to think upon.
The proposal of restitution The entrails of Paris had accumulated to 247,828 yards (140 miles) and had become such a maze that no man could succeed in guiding himself through its channels, until the boldest of all men approached Napoleon. The bold endeavor of Pierre-Emmanuel Bruneseau revolutionized the sewer during a seven-year span. This was needed, since the sewer was rebelling in several inundations. Hugo relates the 1802 inundation, when the mire spread to cover the curbstones to a depth of 14 inches, and the Rue Saint Pierre was covered to a depth of three feet over 261 yards.
At the turn of the 20th century, the Bruneseau revolution had left the sewer "neat, cold, straight, correct and respectable." (You can now take tours in the Parisian sewers). However, the miasma of cloacae affected the respiration of the city. Some of us who are near sewage treatment plants are aware of this unwholesome respiration from the sewer.
Hugo returns to his former proposal: Water needs to be employed to purify the air, i.e., to wash the sewer. By washing the sewer, Hugo means, "the restitution of the mire to the land; return of the muck to the soil and the manure to the fields. There will result, from this simple act, to the whole social community, a diminution of misery and an augmentation of health."
Victor Hugo's philosophy of the sewer evidences a strong environmental awareness, even as early as the late 19th century. In contemporary parlance, we call this awareness sustainable sanitation. A 2001publication entitled Toward Sustainable Sanitation (International Association of Impact Assessment, http://www.riles.org/TSS.pdf) claims that "the present approach to the disposal of human wastes - central collection and treatment of sewage - is unsustainable." The proposed answer is, once again, to restore the organic loop. However, the solution is much more difficult today than it would have been during the 19th century.
Even though underground sewers and treatment plants have reduced the pre-modern problems of pathogens and open-air sewage that caused the spread of sickness, restoring the sludge with such pathogens to agricultural soils may also restore the spread of disease. These pathogens are relatively short-lived, however, and eventually break down in the soils. The real problem is in the modern waste flows that have become "dirtier" than in centuries past.
This dirtier waste is the result of the industrial contaminants (toxic chemicals, heavy metals and pharmaceutical wastes) mixing with human waste, making recycling even more dangerous for agricultural fertilization. Because of this, today's system of sewers and treatment plants are inferior technologies for recycling human waste. One point of inferiority is the treatment plant's conversion of nitrogen to a gaseous form that is eliminated to the atmosphere. The elimination of nitrogen, the most important nutrient for plant growth, voids its potential use as recyclable fertilizer. Another point of the treatment plant's inferiority is that it is not designed for recycling, only for disposal. Hence, the EPA sludge standards are not high enough to entrust the sludge to our agricultural soils.
Herculean as these problems may be in a post-modern era seeking sanitation sustainability, strategies have been put forth to overcome. One strategy is to separate industrial waste from human waste altogether. This can be done by treating industrial waste at its source, before it enters the sanitary waste system. Another separation strategy is to treat domestic waste at its source. This can be accomplished by composting. SIRDO technology (Sistema Integral de reciclamiento de desechos orgánicos: Integrated System for Recycling Organic Wastes, http://www.sirdo.com.mx/) is an alternative waste collector system to provide safe biofertilizer by utilizing solar heating and bacteria.
Still, before we can even begin to consider sustainable solutions for sanitation, a paradigm shift will have to occur to instill a new philosophy of the sewer. The political and engineering communities (including LEED requirements that focus on water reductions and recycling but categorize nothing for sludge recycling for agricultural use) will have to embrace a philosophical world and life view that includes the natural earth and its agricultural life cycle inclusive of the organic loop of stercoraries. Human waste will need to be seen as residuum rather than detritus.
This paradigm shift also will need to occur in our moral consciences, since the sewer reveals more of our vices than our virtues. Preceding sustainable sanitation, a reform of habits and a return to virtue is necessary. A sustainable sewer ought to reproduce a green city; its mire ought to reproduce the customs of sound and wholesome living. As we clean up our habits, so also the sewer must be cleaned up.
The reclamation of our declining levels of organic matter is what the timeless/transcendent significance of the sewer is speaking to us today. Our present history is requiring this philosophy of us. If sanitation is to be sustainable, we need to correct what is, in Hugo's estimation, our mistake.

89 comments:

Watershed Mark said...

Ethically, the sewer is a cynic in that it is painstakingly indifferent and tells all. As the conscience is the judgment seat for truth telling, the sewer is no liar and hides no secrets. The sewer declares what the individual tries to hide.

Bulding one "today" in LO/BP will be "instructive" for all.

GVD said...

Can anyone tell me what happened to the Habitat Studio's first place award for a design of the Los Osos sewer system? In 1992 their design won first place from over 400 entries from 50 countries. One of only 3 teams that won from the U.S. in the International Sustainable Design Competiton.

Watershed Mark said...

GVD asks a really great question.
RL, Pandora, anyone?

CRACK!

Realistic1 said...

WM -

The award was given in 1992, six years before the election to form the LOCSD.

Why don't you ask the County about the design, since the project was in their hands at that time...

Watershed Mark said...

The county is not very "forthcoming" and it isn’t posted on their website http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/AssetFactory.aspx?did=15869
I did find this http://www.habitatdesigns.com/projects/los_osos.html http://www.greenbuildingpages.com/
Perhaps the design could be linked to the county’s website in order to complete the record.

LO.CarryingCapacity said...

GVC says, “Can anyone tell me what happened to the Habitat Studio's first place award for a design of the Los Osos sewer system? In 1992 their design won first place from over 400 entries from 50 countries. One of only 3 teams that won from the U.S. in the International Sustainable Design Competiton.”

Many of the components are contained in the plan presented by the Los Osos Sustainability Group at the Jan 6 BOS meeting. Other components are no longer feasible. To bad it wasn’t implemented at the time.

Watershed Mark said...

http://www.ecofluid.com/benefits.cfm

80,000 GPD (300 m³/d) USBF™ WWTP
built in between houses attesting to the
non-odorous nature of the process

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Maybe you don't realize that one of the key reasons that TriW had such opposition is because it was too close to homes and would possibly smell and because it used ... gasp ... chemicals.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,

What you don't seem understand is that ECOfluid USBF designs are different and better than the rest. It doesn't need hundreds of acres like an ox-ditch which will smell badly.
There are minimum set back distances in the law to help buffer the impact, which help to mitigate the impact upon citizens.

Putting an ox-ditch where what is “out of town” at the moment is a usual and customary strategy that helps the “industry” but not the people paying for it.
Lots of pipe and pumps to move waste to a remote location to inferior treatment technology is what the county came up. Typical industry move, right down to the “must be upgradable to tertiary” language in the RFQ. Such folly Steve you are or will be supporting unless you begin asking tough questions of those in charge of the process, today. The DEIR comment period is about to end.

I will continue my educational promulgation of technology to LO/BP et al because it is instructive for all, maybe not for you, MIKE and Lynette, but everyone else who may be reading now and in the future. I don’t want you and your children to “needlessly” pay for the deficiency of “process” and “the process”. Thanks for visiting www.ECOfluid.com

What chemicals are you talking about? We don’t need to use chlorine for disinfection, like you would pay for, store and handle with the ox-ditch because of its poor turbidity effluent.
BTW, the USEPA wants EVERYONE to move away from chlorine, so I have to chuckle when the county would want to use a design which requires it when facilities all over the states are upgrading to UV or Ozone. Paying more for something less when something more is available for less is what I am working to correct. LA, Las Vegas and others no longer use chlorine in their drinking water treatment they now use ozone.

ECOfluid’s Upflow Sludge Blanket Filtration design’s are state of the art technology, also eminently suitable for existing plants capacity and efficiency upgrade reconstruction, delivers high treatment efficiency, including nitrogen and phosphorus removal, at costs that are significantly below those of comparable conventional systems. Utilizing the high efficiency of the USBF process the company has developed a niche for providing treatment plants producing high quality effluent including reusable water.

We offer more for less, I no longer why “some” do not want to evaluate it side by side with what usual and customary.

Ethically, the sewer is a cynic in that it is painstakingly indifferent and tells all.

Bulding one "today" in LO/BP will be "instructive" for all.

Unknown said...

...Mark needs to get his hands on the Tri-W design... He is describing an almost identical system already designed, funded, permitted and begun right here in Los Osos... The Tri-W design is indeed state of the art and shovel ready...

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

You've not been paying attention to Los Osos for as long as some of the others here. I wrote my tongue-in-cheek comment for them as well as for you.

My hint to you was that any plant "built in between houses" will be opposed. Not because of the reality of odors (as I hinted at in my Santa Cruz and Beverly Hills comments earlier) but because of the fear of odors.

The comment about chemicals was because some who opposed TriW characterized any and all MBR plants as evil because of the chemicals. MBR has been incorrectly portrayed as the worst of the worst by some TriW foes when they were fighting TriW.

As Mike suggests, you might wanna get a copy of the TriW design because it doesn't sound a whole lot different ... in many ways which are key to many in Los Osos ... from what you seem to be proposing. Sure, there are differences, but you will have a hill to climb to convince people of your idea.

Shark Inlet said...

Ann,

Dan Cole has some good comments ... but he his comments on sewers being a problem are largely symptomatic of cities being problems.

If we have to have cities (and Economics would argue that there are huge benefits of cities), sewers are a necessity (remember John Snow and the Broad Street pump?).

Watershed Mark said...

Except that technology design used twice the energy, cost five time more to build than ECOfluid and it doesn't matter where you put it.

Zenon did do as well as ECOfluid biologically have a look at pages 19 and 20 here:

https://www.ecofluid.com/docs_private/9-4%20U%20of%20C,%20Davis,%20CA-Review%20of%20Technologies-Abbreviated1.pdf

My point is MIKE better technology exists that was "purposefully" not considered, why?

Why not pay less and get more/tertiary not instead of paying to upgrade it later?

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
Technology exists to keep what happens in the neighborhood, in the neighborhood.
Reuse onsite at the source is “where the puck will be”...

The cities of the future are already designing this way.
America is 4% of the world’s population, so there are plenty of smart folks who want smart solutions.

So Sorry LO/BP, where are all the liberal thinkers?
DEIR comment period closes today. Now comes the fun part. Address or ignore, truth or consequences, either way, you all pay, while those responsible for "the process" won't pay. Sad but true.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote: The comment about chemicals was because some who opposed TriW characterized any and all MBR plants as evil because of the chemicals. MBR has been incorrectly portrayed as the worst of the worst by some TriW foes when they were fighting TriW.

So Steve, you really just hear or read something someone said and ply it into a rhetorical statement with no back up. I see. Now I understand.

Watershed Mark said...

Zenon did NOT do as well as ECOfluid biologically have a look at pages 19 and 20 here:

https://www.ecofluid.com/docs_private/9-4%20U%20of%20C,%20Davis,%20CA-Review%20of%20Technologies-Abbreviated1.pdf

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Sadly you don't understand what I wrote to you. Folks who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it. You're sounding like both Pandora and Julie just about now ... with a New! Better! solution for Los Osos.

Please understand that folks here have felt burned many times by people who have new and better solutions. We wanna see proof before we are willing to believe.

That being said, perhaps you could produce data from one of your fancy installations on the cost/month over the last 5 years along with nitrates over the last 5 years so that we can see that your systems are as hassle free and as inexpensive to run as we want them to be. There is no use building the cheapest plant if it won't as needed.

Oh ... you might also wanna resubmit another response to the DEIR to the County with these data along with an analysis by an unbiased engineering firm which verifies that your system is better than what the County is proposing.

Here's the honest truth, Mark. I 2/3 believe you that your system is ideal for our town. The problem is that you've not convinced me, let alone the professionals who get to make the decisions.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote:

That being said, perhaps you could produce data from one of your fancy installations on the cost/month over the last 5 years along with nitrates over the last 5 years so that we can see that your systems are as hassle free and as inexpensive to run as we want them to be. There is no use building the cheapest plant if it won't as needed.

Here's the honest truth, Mark. I 2/3 believe you that your system is ideal for our town. The problem is that you've not convinced me, let alone the professionals who get to make the decisions.

Steve,
I though you didn't want any more MB from me? You really are in a world of hurt, sorry about that, really.

So when are you going to ask to see the county's: “installations on the cost/month over the last 5 years along with nitrates over the last 5 years so” they used to justify a $25M secondary effluent upgradeable to tertiary Ox Ditch? If you believe the county’s consulting engineer without seeing his proof, why are you giving him a pass on even looking at our data?

Too bad you are just now waking up to the facts. Sad indeed.

The SLOCO BOS will make a decision based on what Paavo Ogren and his consulting engineer how may be bidding on the project reveal to them.
One purpose of my effort here on Ann’s Land is to illuminate the facts, no matter “what or who I sound like”. Don’t worry though Steve you will pay either way.

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

The SLOCO BOS will make a decision based on what Paavo Ogren and his consulting engineer WHO may be bidding on the project reveal to them.

Pesky typo...

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

I'm not asking you to e-mail me that data, I'm asking you to put it here in some fashion. Perhaps get a website, put that file on the website and make a link to it here.

If there really is a good solution you should not hid information about it. If you really love Los Osos you will go out of your way to make sure that you get a convincing package before the County.

If you can't do this or are unwilling to provide data, you shouldn't keep telling me that the County is under some obligation to tell us why their system is better than yours. After all, if you can't provide proof yours is better, there is no good reason to think it is.

If you really wanna illuminate the facts, I would think that you would want to provide some.

Let us know if you're gonna provide data or just gonna continue fussing.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

ws mark says. "Technology exists to keep what happens in the neighborhood, in the neighborhood. Reuse onsite at the source is “where the puck will be”...

If we want to recharge the aquifer, putting it back in the neighborhood will not help. The water did not come from the neighborhood.

Cleaning up sewage to the point legally required using an onsite system for gardening would require some very unshakable and robust data.

As Shark points out above, we need to see the data. If you really wanted to illuminate the facts, you could actually put that data here. We have asked and asked.

A reason for you to NOT show the data should not be that the County has not shown their data to do that. Well, what the County proposes is duplications of process that are already WORKING and IN USE currently in THIS COUNTY and APPROVED by the Water Board. Are any of you devices at work and APPROVED IN THIS COUNTY?

Surely you must see that your refusal to provide us data that a normal person would want to crow about causes us to think IT DOESN'T EXIST.

Shark Inlet said...

'Toons,

I am sure that Mark will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that after the water is treated by his system, it could be used for a wide variety of things, including irrigation or "disposal" at Broderson or pretty much in any way that the TriW effluent would have been used. One benefit of several smaller plants scattered throughout the town is that the effluent could be that it would be easier to use the water locally and put it back into the aquifer in a fashion more similar to how that is being done today.

As to your point that if Mark were to trot out his data ... the County might actually feel the need to present data which would show their system is at least as good. Of course, if Mark doesn't have a long-run dataset ....

Unknown said...

Hey Shark... just because I like plying devils advocate... if a nearly hidden WWTF was objectionable on the Tri-W Parksite, do think there could be similar objections if, lets just pick some random locations for the "neighborhood plants"...say next to Ann Calhoun's and maybe next to Osos Change and of course next to a school and maybe next to Lisa's... Let's see... vacuum lines from the property into the magic box, then purple pipes to Boderson or Dan Duval's area... hmmm, that's sure going to save our streets... and what happens to the solid sludge...??? ...how about "when" the unit fails...???

Oh well, I'm sure we can count on the trolls and gnomes to protest any and all locations west of Bakersfield...

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Hi Shark,

Yes, I think that is what he meant too, and I didn't take the time to flesh out my thoughts very well.

Putting the water into the aquifer as we are doing now has resulted in seepage into the bay. Granted, clean water seepage would be better than the dirty water we are currently using. But it is still wasted water. We are not recharging the lower aquifer much by doing this either - some but not much. Broderson is the best place to get water into the lower aquifer.

Putting the cleaned up water in at Broderson or even purple pipe to the homeowners' yards would require an investment in piping, the cost of which may not be part of his pitch on it being "inexpensive." Maybe that is to be born quietly by the homeowner? Re-use would certainly cut down on pumping the lower aquifer, but how much?

It is unclear how the revenues of at least the CSD water department would be affected. Do they meter the purple pipe? Charge you one and a half times the cost of the lower aquifer water? If they have insufficient income to fund the reserves for capital improvement projects (and the $5 mil spent on the IBank projects are only SOME of the capital improvements needed in this town's infrastructure, there is a whole other list of stuff), are we going to need to assess ourselves on a 218 to fund them?

How would cluster plants be accepted when this town rejected just ONE plant "in town?"

I just have trouble with believing anything ws mark says, as he produces arguments as to why he should not have to produce data, rather than actual data that would sell all of us.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Did anyone actually visit the address listed in the posting?

http://www.sirdo.com.mx

Very …unusual. Not sure what they said.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote: If there really is a good solution you should not hid information about it.

I expect that the millions of dollars the county spent on consultants to eliminate this doubt, but sadly they actually created it. What did Paavo ask them to do?

Let's see how the county answers the DEIR comments.

Lynette,
Steve is "tracking" he is on target.

Oh yes we have data. When the consulting engineer is “ready” to see it, he can. Posting on a blog won’t do it justice for it would have no value to you when you can't keep discharge requirements and reclaimed water requirements straight much less whether the treatment occurs inside or outside the PZ. Can you actually be sold Lynette? Are you a buyer? What about the raw sewage that leaks from the gravity sewer? Isn’t that a discharge? Where is that leaky sewer data? There is leaky sewer data, isn't there? Why didn't the county's engineer show it?

Where is your concern for seeing the county's treatment data? Won't you need it to compare it with ours? Oh wait that’s what a consulting engineer might want to (should) do.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

There is no benefit to our community, the County or your company by hiding data that proves your company has the best solution.

It is hard to believe that you are only willing to share that data with a qualified engineer asks with the words "pretty please". It is far easier to believe that whatever data you have doesn't unambiguously show your device's awesomeness over the long haul.

Your sales technique, "I'll show you the data when I believe you are ready" isn't that convincing. Perhaps had you provided it upfront, the County would have been talking with you with great interest.

This is all to say "put up or shut up." I've always been unwilling to trust anyone who is unwilling to share their data. Unless there is an industry secret (and data on costs and nitrates don't fall into that category), scientists and engineers are always willing to share.

Folks who are unwilling to share their data are simply not trustworthy people. Mark, are you trustworthy?

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette, here is what it said:

The EWG is a nonprofit organization, dedicated since 1978 to develop technologies for recycling household waste called SIRDO (Integrated system for recycling organic waste) which has a Certificate of Invention No. 6758, Trademark 338,568, SECOFI; Health Status of a Certificate issued by the Ministry of Health No. 91002/54/112/6/88 and a Proof of operability provided by the National Water Commission. The SIRDO is based on the biochemical process of the Mexica chinampa treatment modalities and wet (with wastewater collection networks) and treatment of dry solid waste, including feces.

The GTA is pleased to inform you that offers our advice and equipment for recycling within its community.

The expert advice we offer is geared to the following areas:

Planning and instrumentalizing recycling through the development of sustainable MICRO recycling industry.

Edge technology for processing organic waste into biofertilizer excellent sound quality and free of pathogens.

It's weird to you because you don't understand the language...Just like wastewater BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARRRRRIBA!!!

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

ws mark, you dissemble.

You posted to Alabamasue, "Letting the BOS know your thoughts regarding the technology that was not evaluated is a good idea…"

OK, let's say we take you up on that idea. You want us to advocate for your product, that it is superior. Now not everyone in Los Osos is a wastewater expert, but those who appear to get the best County answers back - such as, "Good point, we'll look into that" come equipped with compelling information. What have you given us - to do your advocacy work? A sales pitch.

You really don't have anything, do you? And you will dodge answering truthfully until this blog falls apart, won't you.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Sorry mark, the language wasn't weird. True, I never took Spanish, but I got the gist of it anyway; a bunch of children singing about sewage accompanied by a cheery lady on a guitar.

Watershed Mark said...

Just ask why ECOfluid and EONE were not considered. You are paying for it.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote: It is hard to believe that you are only willing to share that data with a qualified engineer asks with the words "pretty please".

It is hard to believe that millions of dollars were paid to engineers to "not to study" and report on data that was given to them.

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote:
Mark,

Do you know why your system was eliminate early on?

Answer: ECOfluid’s “PRE-ENGINEERED” tertiary design at a build price of $8.8M vs. the county’s consulting “engineer’s” $25M secondary Oxidation-Ditch design that “must be upgradeable to tertiary.

Is this a mistake? Was it willfull? It can be corrected, will it?

Watershed Mark said...

A review of the detail in the billing from the consulting engineer will show how much it cost to "come up" with the $25M secondary Oxidation-Ditch design that “must be upgradeable to tertiary."

Lynette, while you are asking your elected representative about why the technology was ignored howc about asking when the people can see the consultant's detailed billing. It is, after all, the people's money...you are paying for his salary, so technically he works for you. They aren't called public servants for nothing. It's called public service for a reason...

Watershed Mark said...

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

It seems like this is a game to you, that you care more about whether 'Toons or I do what you want us to do than you care about Los Osos or whether there is data as you claim, monthly data over a five year period that demonstrates the nitrate levels.

One more chance, Mark ... are you trustworthy or not? As this is now a matter of your personal trustworthiness and as you've not told us that these data are a trade secret, there is no legitimate reason to not provide them.

Again, this is about your credibility.

I see no reason to trust anything you say ... at all ... until you give us a reason to do so.

If nothing else, your "game" here is lacking professionalism.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve wrote:
One more chance, Mark ... are you trustworthy or not? As this is now a matter of your personal trustworthiness and as you've not told us that these data are a trade secret, there is no legitimate reason to not provide them.

If nothing else, your "game" here is lacking professionalism

Steve,
Someone who does not use his real name and was outed from his hiding place does not possess the requisite integrity to sit in judgment of anyone’s trustworthiness.
The legitimacy of the current SLOCO study “ process” is in serious question as evidenced by the secretive selection process of both the consulting engineer by Paavo Ogren and that engineer’s $25M secondary Ox-Ditch “must be upgradeable to tertiary” design. The leaky sewerage is a compounding problem, as well.
I really couldn’t care any less about your opinions because you have never backed any of them up. You rhetoric has you so misguided, confused and focused on the only part of the LOSTDEP solution that will communicate with you. Continue to whine about data it is good for you, but try whining to those who are attempting to needlessly burden you and yours with antiquated technology which is horribly overpriced. It is your credibility that is worthless as you continue to ignore the lack of fiduciary duty and financial intelligence on display by the current county study process as evidenced by everything I have mentioned on this thread above.

Please consider me a “Professional American Citizen” who understands the game which is afoot. Let’s see what the responses to the DEIR comments look like.
Let’s see if AB 32 is acknowledged in a meaningful way. ECOfluid and EONE make it so much more possible than Ox-Ditch and leaky Gravity.

The bill would require the state board to
adopt a statewide greenhouse gas emissions limit equivalent to
the statewide greenhouse gas emissions levels in 1990 to be
achieved by 2020, as specified. The bill would require the state
board to adopt rules and regulations in an open public process to
achieve the maximum technologically feasible and cost-effective
greenhouse gas emission reductions, as specified.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/docs/ab32text.pdf

There are so many issues which have not been considered by so many.
Is that a mistake? Is it willful? Will it be corrected?

Steve wrote: I see no reason to trust anything you say ... at all ... until you give us a reason to do so.

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

I take it that your answer is "No, I won't be providing data."

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

ws mark,

Your pointless answer to Shark has proven to me that you have absolutely nothing to show us and are incapable of answering simple questions.

The products you claim to represent - - are e|one and ECOfluid even aware that YOU "represent" them here to us? Perhaps they will issue a disclaimer or get a restraining order. They look like they manufacture decent products, ones we won't know much about because of your bungling.

Oh, and I'm not considering "…(you) a 'Professional American Citizen' who understands the game which is afoot. You are simply not smart enough, or remotely professional.

Goodbye.

Churadogs said...

I think Mark's important question is this: Why was his info apparently ignored during the first evaluations? Was it submitted wrongly? Ignored? If so, why? Was his info (submitted to the DEIR at the proper time and in the proper form? ) properly considered? Are his questions answered properly in the DEIR? If not, why not?

Unknown said...

Was Mark's "info" ignored...???

Mark has said enough to make one think Mark the Salesman didn't like the answers he received and is using you and this blog as so sort of pity-pot to complain... It certainly appears he does not have enough of a product/service to have caught the attention of the County Engineers...

This community has had enough of individuals and groups thinking that they did not have to comply with the laws and rules laid down by governing authorities, but that they could then create their own rules as if they were in charge... From Mark's remarks (over and over without meaning or end), it does appear Mark did not comply with the written Requests and then used this blog to post endless blog-rafitti whinning about how the County would not grant him to reset the process...

Bottom line is that Mark has complained and avoided enough answers as to render anything from him to appear un-trustworthy...

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
Was Mark's "info" ignored...???

You are paying for it either way and have nothing to lose and much to save.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette, You know you can't quit me...

Watershed Mark said...

Sure Steve, I'll get you data but I'm going to need permission to send it to you.

Unknown said...

Sorry Mark... Yes, "I" will be paying for it... You on the other hand, do not live here and only want to make a major commission check on the backs of this community... We already have the bankrupt legacy of the post-recall CSD to shoulder... YOU do not understand the history or the people of Los Osos... YOU do not understand "Salesmanship"...!!!

No Mark, "I" do NOT trust YOU...!!!!

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

I'll wait for your data. Thanks.

If the owner of the data wants confidentiality, I will agree to not pass those data on to others.

I would also be happy to comment here on those data if asked and if the data owner is willing to let me.


Ann is probably right ... that Mark probably wants to why his package was apparently ignored. On the other hand, when folks here attempt to give him suggestions, he seems quite resistant. Perhaps a communication style issue, but please also remember that Mark didn't come out and say "hey, I submitted a package to the county ... here is a copy ... see that it addresses all the relevant issues and it appears that I am being steamrolled"? That approach would have, I'm sure, gotten a better response here.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
When the county/Paavo hred Carollo they said "no" to a pre-engineered package.

I'm not interested in preserving the status quo, I'm interested in overthowing it.

Let's see how they "handle" the DEIR coments. It is going to be a blast!

Mike,
I'm am trying to save you money.

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does anyone know any other communities who have or are now engineering the drinking of secondary water, like SLOCOis currently studying?
What about "emerging contaminants?
Everything in the grocery and hardware stores will make its way into the sewer...

Billy Dunne said...

Mike,
I guess the question then is why do you and others keep engaging Low at all? You must have ended 4 or 5 or your posts with "have fun," which I took as you reaching your wits end. And who could blame you? But Low plays you like a fish on a hook, and I wonder why you continue to take the bait.

"No Mark, "I" do NOT trust YOU...!!!!"

"One more chance, Mark ... are you trustworthy or not?"

C'mon folks. Are you kidding?

All everyone needs to know about Mr. Mark, his character, his ethics, his credibility, his agenda is this: From approx. November 2007 to May 2008 Low initially hijacked this blog with fantastic claims and other-worldly scientific proof that the Reclamator provided all the answers to our sewer questions in Los Osos. If needed, go back to this 6 month time-frame and read for yourself. Some samples:

-- "I Love LO" he bellowed.
-- "From obstructionists to world visionaries.” he shouted.
--“Exceptions and Variances from the QCB? Septic Tank Survey...We don't it...Think!!LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution here!!!” he bragged.
--“Any CAO would automatically be satisfied with a RECLAMATOR installation/septic tank replacement.” He opined.
--“stay tuned...” he’d promise.
--“Ok. But seriously, The LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solutiom costs $15,000.00 qualifiesfor federal grant assistance and the monthly cost is contractual beginning at 45.75 and is tied to the cost of living index.
Oh and it also provides for 100% beneficial reuse because it does not discharge pollutants. It also remediates the soil think (CAO Here)at no charge.
Can you say Cha CHING?!!! ...ibidy,ibidy, ibidy...that's all folks!” he would proffer.
--“If folks can't or qon't stand up for their rights "someone else must". Enter the AES DES LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution and those "someones" associated with it.
There are more than meet the eye, on that you may rely.
(I had to do my part for prose)” he’d giddily proclaim.
--“The AES DES PPP LOCSD BK Re-org plan due out shortly, will be a once in a lifetime story Sona. It is going to make HISTORY whether the Tribune covers it or not. Let's stay in touch.” He beamed to the Tribune.
“Let Freedom RING!!!” and “More tea?”

On and on and on it went. But then, he disappeared for a brief time.

Well, of course, we all know how THAT story ended. From New Times dated July 30, 2008:
“Despite all the big promises, Murphy’s former partner, Mark Low, got fed up and left. After his departure in late May, Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness, and Murphy’s business model.”

CRACK!!!!!!!

What a guy.

And this:
“Low says the system has not been adequately tested, with only a handful of controlled samples used as evidence that it works.”

CRACK!!!!!

You have got to be kidding me, right? From November 2007 to May 2008 this guy rammed the Reclamator down the throats of anyone and everyone on this blog, day after day, unrelenting. And he what??!! He then recants everything, says the system was not adequately tested and then sends e mails to reporters and politicians debunking the thing?

CRACK!!!!!

It’s all you need to know folks.

Because here he sits a short few months later with yet another device and another company, Eco Fluid?, without a shred of humility or embarrassment, ramming and cramming it down your throats again. Almost word for convoluted word; dead end for dead end; wild claim for wild claim. As Yogi would say, it's deja vu all over again. Why, oh why, would anyone on this blog engage this gaseous windbag in any kind of communication whatsoever? He’s the Rush Limbaugh of Calhoun’s blog, and like Limbaugh, only seeks to irritate to nudge the appearance of credibility when, in reality, none exists whatsoever.
No credibility, none, nada, zilch. (Except seemingly to Ann, who seems to find his mulitudinous,long-winded blog-hogging posts enlightening.)

Let’s pretend I was in the market for a car, and I went to a Toyota dealership. And the sales person gave me his pitch, gushsing about how great Toyota’s were: how gas efficient; how safe; how comfortable; how they were the cars of the future; and how wonderful the people were who owned the dealership and how they were going to revolutionize the car industry and they were “world visionaries.” On and on and on he goes, until you think maybe this guy loves Toyota’s TOO much.

And what if in a few days on my quest I went to a Saturn dealership and the SAME person from the Toyota dealership was now working there and telling me what a great car Saturn’s were and what pieces of crap Toyota’s were. What if he even started telling me what a “cowboy” the owner of the Toyota dealership was, how he was gonna call the authorities to complain about his old employer at Toyota, and call the local media to whine and backstab his old employer.
Huh?

“So Mr. Dunn, you ready now to buy a Saturn from me?”
Yeah right.

CRACK!!!

Crack indeed.

"Please consider me a “Professional American Citizen” who understands the game which is afoot.... I will continue my educational promulgation of technology to LO/BP et al....."

I would caution everyone to watch out who educates you. Or in Low’s case, who schools you. In the meantime, why waste even a minute trying to converse with this blowhard.

Watershed Mark said...

BD, Class is in sesion. Pay attention, it will cost you(if you actually live in this affected PZ)either way.

CRACK!!!!

$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unknown said...

Billy Dunne... I am in full agreement with you... I'm ending my responses to the game...

Looking back, this is very much the same as the game played by those opposed to any decision by the pre-recall Directors... It seems to never end...

I am pleased with the County taking over the project and know we will have a sewer in Los Osos in spite of the games... I'm also very pleased that the CSD is getting back to fiscally responsible decisions...

Watershed Mark said...

My thanks to the inventor of spell check.
BD Class is now in session, so pay close attention.

If the CSD can "get along” with an $1,100.00/month temp Director why haven't they? Conscientiously managed businesses do more with less all the time.

Come on MIKE, who are you trying to kid here. Stop kidding yourself. The county tried once before to sewer LO/BP and didn’t. The BOS has not voted to take the “problem” (which is getting bigger all the time) yet.

The comment period closed yesterday.
Now comes the fun part-responding…

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Billy Dunne - GREAT post!!! Thanks!!!!

Alon Perlman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

There doesn't seem to be a "bum rush" going on with the County...if fact they have been patiently proceeding right along the process line toward a sewer decision...and the cast of gnomes and trolls trooping before the BOS with their same worn out statements (is Gail still writeing the script and que cards...??) seems to be dwindling...

There needs to ba a sewer Alon, but there doesn't have to another 30 years of bitching about finding the exactly perfect place and way to do it...!!!

Watershed Mark said...

Alon Perlman said...
Yeh, let's paint it all green. let's Bum rush the DEIR, let's invite experts from out of town to drop in and tell us what condition our conditions are in.
*(not you Lowe Water Mark, besides you weren't invited)
Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah, what condition my condition was in)

I woke up this mornin' with the sundown shinin' in
I found my mind in a brown paper bag, but then...
I tripped on a cloud and fell-a eight miles high
I tore my mind on a jagged sky
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

(Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah, what condition my condition was in)

I pushed my soul in a deep dark hole and then I followed it in
I watched myself crawlin' out as I was a-crawlin' in
I got up so tight I couldn't unwind
I saw so much I broke my mind
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in


(Yeah, yeah, oh-yeah, what condition my condition was in)

Someone painted "April Fool" in big black letters on a "Dead End" sign
I had my foot on the gas as I left the road and blew out my mind
Eight miles outta Memphis and I got no spare
Eight miles going left downtown somewhere
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in

I said I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in
Yeah yeah oh-yeah

I’m happy to see you are enjoying the party AP, welcome. Freedom of speech is nice, isn’t it? I wonder why you didn’t throw your hat into the Temp Director “ring”? There is no “e” in my name.
Hang in there, we are getting to the heart of the matter.

This is what happens when emotions get the better of a discussion:
Alon Perlman said...
Yeh, let's paint it all green. let's Bum rush the DEIR, let's invite experts from out of town to drop in and tell us what condition our conditions are in.
Mike said...
There doesn't seem to be a "bum rush" going on with the County...if fact they have been patiently proceeding right along the process line toward a sewer decision…
You guys are really funny! I LOVE LO!

Watershed Mark said...

BTW AP, the United States is a Nation of Laws...

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE wrote:...and the cast of gnomes and trolls trooping before the BOS with their same worn out statements seems to be dwindling...

The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant, that few stood against many, and before this battle was over, even a god-king can bleed.

http://italian.imdb.de/title/tt0416449/quotes
Great flick!

Alon Perlman said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alon Perlman said...

Mark Low, Mike. You guys must be psychic. I haven't even posted the post you are quoting from yet.

As for laws, Low,- I supported the county process- Once 2701 was passed, Dave Duggan said it best- "Trust but Verify"
(Some say that a Hollywood Actor turned Governor said it first - typical urban legend - How could an Actor become the leader of the Fifth largest economy in the world, I mean, really, what are the odds?) That would be like some "Peter Principled" Career one job middle manager becoming the Savior of L.O. You'd have to really "market" to an unsuspecting public.
Anyway- We (independently D.D. and I, and some others picked up on it) changed the TAC process, Chairman Garfinkel did fine in that respect, because we wanted to hear what the TAC members were thinking
As for the Cue Cards, Mark? Gail was in charge of the whispering Campaign and the scare tactics. Otherwise she kept out of site so as not to De-Positive Karen's Campaign. Her concern was to get someone on who would maintain the CSD's lawsuit.
I did not commit because as I originally stated "No one should commit to a final decision on a Closed Session Item until they have been elected and have heard the Item in closed session". At least that's what I think I said,
I've heard my words since so many times out of other people's mouth's that I'm almost believing that I heard Karen say that at the Candidates forum a month later.
Whose writing the script you say? We have a County Questionnaire coming up? Connect the Dots.
Oh and M.L. (Water Mark) -Temp Director “ring”? It's the GM's (General Manager) position. I could do it but I'm underqualled for that. It's Director of CSD that I'm Overqualified for. Check Sierra Club (Santa Lucian Nov '08 P-6 as I recall)
"what happens when emotions get the better of a discussion" that's low- do you think that the reading public is stupid? that they don't see a prejedicial setup so that they will just read the quote (like Gail etc.. feel about the voting public being stupid?)

This is AMERICA, Mark. Where LAWS are written by POLITICIANS, Who are VOTED into office by the PUBLIC who in their wisdom pay attention to the CANDIDATES who raise the most money and MARKET themselves with MARKETING DIRECTORS by telling the PEOPLE exactly what they WANT TO HEAR...

"what happens when emotions get the better of a discussion"?

Vell, Zee here Mark, I'm a Robot. Ve haff no emotions. I come from your fyutcher, vich is my past. I was a SUWERINATOR, Designed by the Infrastructyure, vich became self-avare in 2014. I vas captchered by the Yooman resistance, and re-programmed by deir leader, vho is not yet born, and I vas sent to your time. By the vey, do you know a Sarah Connor? unt by the vey, I vas programmed vid a sense of yumor. I volden’t survive the mission vid - owt it. Deese oder New - Gen robots, Dey believe deir own propaganda.

I was part of a group DEIR submission, and I stopped it one ring short of being... - oh well there's one born every minute. Politics abound.
And another too rushed to be proud of, and a communication to CCRWCB. So this is unwinding, while I'm at work, away from home. What's your excuse?

Alon Perlman said...

Original post "4:46 PM, January 31, 2009" updated "lemmings" added, meanwhile responses were posted above

Yeh, let's paint it all green. let's Bum rush the DEIR, let's invite experts from out of town to drop in and tell us what condition our conditions are in.
*(not you Lowe Water Mark, besides you weren't invited)
OK, so there's a worse thing than a Tri-W Sewer in the middle of the town, and that's a Tri-W sewer out of town. (I called that one before there even was a TAC)

And the current rush to yabber yabber LID (Low Impact Development, now storm water managment, tomorrow [Insert Buzzword Here] everything? There is also something worse then a lack of environmental protection laws and that is a One size fits all environmental protection laws, especially when the legislation has not been ironed out to a level of implementation and when proponentised by our LOCAL political hacks and armchair environmentalists backers.

Hacks so jaundiced by their 6 months of public adoration, that they will flock like LEMMINGS in the Limelight (Original post was missing the "Rush" Link) to a WATERBOARD Public Meeting (only when the cameras are rolling) to Support even more Draconian WATERBOARD Actions?


MAY I REMIND YOU GENTLEMEN AND LADIES (not you Ann)


THAT

THE UNEVEN
(and occasionally inappropriate)

APPLICATION OF ENVIRONMENTAL REMEDIATION

IS

EXACTLY

HOW

LOS OSOS

GOT IN THIS

MESS

IN THE FIRST PLACE.


Soooo....

Watershed Mark said...

Living on a lighted stage
Approaches the unreal
For those who think and feel
In touch with some reality
Beyond the gilded cage.

Cast in this unlikely role
Ill-equipped to act
With insufficient tact
One must put up barriers
To keep oneself intact.

Living in the limelight
The universal dream
For those who wish to seem.
Those who wish to be
Must put aside the alienation,
Get on with the fascination,
The real relation,
The underlying theme.

Living in a fisheye lens,
Caught in the camera eye.
I have no heart to lie
I can't pretend a stranger
Is a long-awaited friend.

All the world's indeed a stage
And we are merely players:
Performers and portrayers,
Each another's audience
Outside the gilded cage.

Chorus Dave Duggan said it best-
"Trust but Verify"
"Trust but Verify"
"Trust but Verify"
"Trust but Verify"
"Trust but Verify"


Doesn't anyone want to see the billings that verify what the county is spending the money on?

I'll wait awhile and let it pile up alittle more befor I make a FOIA request.

*PG-13 said...

Absolutely amazing. No, beyond amazing. Bordering on imbecilic.

Hi all, I've been gone for quite a long while - four, maybe five months? - and I happened to drop in just to see what today's discussion was about and guess what? Not a thing has changed! Not a single thing. Oh, some minor details may have changed a bit with the passage of time, elections, more county whatever, maybe a few new acronyms. Because I've been gone it is sooooooo clear. Billy Dunne sums it up perfectly. It's all just more of the same. Any of numerous threads from the past could have been cut and pasted into this thread (and vice versa) and it would be impossible to discern any edges. Shedhead is doing the same old dance. The exact same dance! It looks and sounds a lot like Let's do the time warp again>. With ShedHead reprising both Riff-Raff & Magenta and Ann dancing as Columbia. (If ya wanna sing along lyrics here. Go on, tell me this isn't so!

Realistic1 said...

"Doesn't anyone want to see the billings that verify what the county is spending the money on?"

I'm more interested in seeing the un-redacted billings that Shauna Sullivan presented to the CSD, so we can see exactly how much PZLDF did (or didn't) pay towards the PZLDF lawsuit.

The County I trust - Sullivan I don't.

Unknown said...

Thank You Realistic1...

Perhaps Ann could write an article on the "Agreement" and the amount Sullivan "contracted" to "bill" the PZLDF... Is there really any legal and binding "agreement"...??? ....or was there simply a "Closed Door Session" where the post-recall Directors agreed to pay 100% of any bill PZLDF/Sullivan presented...???

I'm so tired of Ann and Ron complaining that Stan, Richard and Gordon made unpopular decisions, but never seeing an honest evaluation of all the attorney bills approved by Lisa, Julie, and Chuck...

It also seems that there was a potentally damaging "conflict of interest" when Sullivan was paid to both represent the CSD and supposedly the PZLDF and getting paid for both by the CSD... Possibly illegal...???

How about it Ann...??? How much has PZLDF actually paid Shauna Sullivan...???

Watershed Mark said...

Thank you for the laugh Thoyteen.
Janet, a good Girl or a Whore? Played by Susan Sarandon...

It all depends upon "whom" is judging...
$25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

R1- Worrying about a few hundred thousand dollars already spent when $7M has been spent to support a solution that may be $100M more than necessary...

A leaky pipe hooked up to a $25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do you justify such folley?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE,

What about the county's potential conflict of interest?

If you are tired of reading this blog, why do you continue?

How about it MIKE?

Shark Inlet said...

Doesn't anyone want to see the package Mark submitted to the County that verifies he actually gave them enough information to fairly evaluate his system?

Would a FOIA request allow me to get this information?

After all, if Mark's system is half as good and twice as expensive as he claims, the County should have chosen it in a heartbeat if they were really given full information. I suspect that the package sent to the County didn't fully answer their questions or that there is some criterion the County has for selecting a technology which Mark may be unaware of.

Just a theory ...

The "captcha" word verification is "flushalyze"

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,

You go boy!

We are finally getting to the point where we can know how much money was spent studying which tecnology. Which may tell us why, as I maintain is:

A leaky pipe hooked up to a $25M for an Ox-Ditch that is “upgradeable to tertiary” …………………………BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is the preoccupation with the "word verification" all about?

Think "county study process verification" that's where the money is going to support leaky and second class systems that cost way too much...

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Hi Shark, yes, we would!

Question - did wsm SEND you any data like he promised above??

Realistic1 said...

WSM

With regard to Shauna Sullivan and PZLDF - you bet I will worry about money already spent. If PZLDF hasn't paid their 75% of Shaunna's fees, the LOCSD is owed a refund to it's almost bare coffers.

As for your claims about better technology - You assume I give anything you say credibility.

Where the sewer is concerned, I've seen enough snake oil in 25 years to make me ignore any and all claims about "better, faster, cheaper". Once bitten, twice shy, ya know.

Thanks just the same, but I'll stick with the County.

Unknown said...

After all Ron's ranting about TW and the phony'd up LAFCo billings...and btw Ron, TW has been and still is paying that joke of a Board... BUT RONNIE, where the hell is the PZLDF's payment..???

You profess to knowing all about Los Osos, then how about you using your "investigative journalist" skills and expose the truth about the PZLDF NOT PAYING for THEIR Legal Bills...!!!!!!!!!!!! We're not holding our breath Ron, but we are digging into that dirty work brought to this community by the Chucky, Lisa and Julie CSD... Any comment Ann...????

Shark Inlet said...

'Toons,

Mark has not sent me any data yet nor has he sent me a complete copy of what his company sent to the County.

I presume he's a man of his word and will send these items promptly.

The word verification for this comment on Mark is "unbig".

Shark Inlet said...

Mike,

Are you saying that if Gordon had the board take over a sizable chunk of the legal fees for a pet project of his, Ron would be all over the question of whether Gordon had paid his share of the total burden?

Unknown said...

Thanks for the chuckle Shark...

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Thanks Shark - on both counts!

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,

As you review the information I will be sending you, what will you be comparing it with?

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Please send the main proposal you sent the County, not just the same set of handouts I've already got. Surely, when you sent something to the County you had a cover letter or index and surely you included the studies and data which demonstrate the various claims on the fliers.



What will I compare your data and documents with? That's maybe not as important as if they pass the Bob Dylan test (you know ... "It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way the wind blows"). Simply put, if your data don't show a long run pattern of nitrates that are acceptable and if your package to the County doesn't demonstrate that you did your homework and made it clear that your company has and understanding of Los Osos' particular needs and RWQCB requirements.

Three more questions to help put things in perspective ... when did your company submit the package to SLO County, when were you working to promote the Reclamator and do you see any need to clarify or correct any of your statements here about the Reclamator?

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
My promulgation of ECOfluid began with the county in late 2006 and so I want to careful about what I "replay" to the blog heads.
Be as patient as you can while I prepare the exhibits for your review.

I see you have nothing to compare ECOfluid data with.

I hope you understand the difference between secondary and tertiary "product" as well as the difference between WB limit fir inside the PZ as less that 7 mg/l monthly average limit, 10 mg/l daily Total Inorganic Nitrogen and "whatever" the applicant applies for outsode the PZ.

I still wonder how the possible 200,000 gallons per day discharge of raw sewage from a gravity collection will get permitted in the PZ?

I worked with the RECLAMATOR from 8-28-07 to 5-14-08

Here is a question for you to keep things in perspective: When has a "package" been received by the county?
As you know the county still has not issued a "Request For Proposal".

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

Are you now telling us that your company never sent the County information about your product in a way which would allow them to adequately review your product?

Unknown said...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

"Promulgation or enactment is the act of formally proclaiming or declaring new statutory or administrative law when it receives final approval. The power to enact laws lies with authority having appropriate jurisdiction.

After a new law is approved, it is announced to the public through the publication of the text of the law in a government periodical and/or on their official websites. National laws of extraordinary importance to the public may be announced by the head of state on a national broadcast. Local laws are usually announced in the local newspapers and published in bulletins or compendia of municipal regulations.{[fact|date=January 2009}}

It has been said[1] that promulgation is the essence of law."


....hmmm... "My promulgation of ECOfluid began with the county in late 2006 and so I want to careful about what I "replay" to the blog heads."...???

Promulgation = Essence of Law...???

....or is there a "different" meaning...??? ...like maybe: a Promulgator is a pompous snakeoil salesman who doesn't understand his product or audience, but continues to throw out cutesy quotes to sound impressive inorder to cover his lack of engineering knowledge and inability to impress the County Engineers...

Watershed Mark said...

Shark: NO
MIKE:Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Promulgate \Pro*mul"gate\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Promulgated; p.
pr. & vb. n. Promulgating.] [L. promulgatus, p. p. of
promulgare to promulgate; of unknown origin. Cf. Promulge.]
To make known by open declaration, as laws, decrees, or
tidings; to publish; as, to promulgate the secrets of a
council.

Syn: To publish; declare; proclaim. See Announce.



promulgate Definition
prom·ul·gate (präm′əl gāt′, prō mul′gāt′)

transitive verb promulgated -·gat′ed, promulgating -·gat′·ing

1-to publish or make known officially (a decree, church dogma, etc.)

2-to make known the terms of (a new or proposed law or statute)
to put (a law) into effect by publishing its terms
3-to make widespread to promulgate learning and culture

Main Entry: pro·mul·gate
Pronunciation: \ˈprä-məl-ˌgāt; prō-ˈməl-, prə-ˈ, ˈprō-(ˌ)\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): pro·mul·gat·ed; pro·mul·gat·ing
Etymology: Latin promulgatus, past participle of promulgare, from pro- forward + -mulgare (probably akin to mulgēre to milk, extract) — more at emulsion
Date: 1530
1: to make (as a doctrine) known by open declaration : proclaim
2 a: to make known or public the terms of (a proposed law) b: to put (a law) into action or force

Come on MIKE get off that WIKI kick!

I am happy to finally have your attention.

Watershed Mark said...

I know I have asked this question before, but I have not received any bloghead answers to it. So here goes again:

How can a leaking sewer pipe that is designed and built with an acceptable leakage rate prior to being buried of 499/gallons per day per mile per diameter inch of pipe, be “permitted” in the Prohibition
Zone?

All that compaction action and heavy equipment rumbling the delicately laid shallow angle gravity pipe cannot be helpful to the seals, can it?

Watershed Mark said...

ADDRESS OF THE PRESIDENT
TO THE NATION
January 31, 2009

"Too often taxpayer dollars have been spent without transparency or accountability."

"And we will insist on unprecedented transparency, rigorous oversight, and clear accountability -- so taxpayers know how their money is being spent and whether it is achieving results.
Rarely in history has our country faced economic problems as devastating as this crisis. But the strength of the American people compels us to come together."

Shark Inlet said...

On issues of importance to Los Osos, it looks like there may be an issue of importance.

If you read the Letter to the County from US F&WS (at http://sharkinlet.fileave.com/09.01.29%20FWS.Comment.PDF) you will see that F&W may be a roadblock to "shovel ready".

In short, the elaborate dance of agencies has just begun and I'm sure that the final County project will morph considerably between now and the end of the dance just like every other project.

Watershed Mark said...

The majority of Los Osos has been built on an ancient dune system formed by centuries of wind blown beach sand…

General Comments

1. Nowhere in the DEIR is the period of public review specifically defined. (oops)

8. Our comments provided on November 29, 2005, have yet to be addressed and a number of significant remain outstanding. Any reference to compatibility or consistency of the proposed project with the LOHCP or conclusionary statements regarding adequacy of mitigation or any other thing, should be removed. It should also be noted that this draft plan was not prepared pursuant to the Natural Community Conservation Planning Act.


Good work Steve!

Watershed Mark said...

United States Department of the Interior
FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE
Washington, D.C. 20240

http://www.fws.gov/

Effective: Immediately
Expires: Indefinite
NATIONAL POLICY ISSUANCE #99-01

SUBJECT: Mission Statement

Our mission is working with others to conserve, protect, and enhance fish, wildlife, and plants and their habitats for the continuing benefit of the American people.

BAM (Breakout Another Million)