Koff, Koff, Koff, are those the Air Pollution Control District Officers I see in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?
Below is the most recent revision from the RWQCB on the April 28 CDO Dog & Pony Show. There’s a few very interesting points to note. One is in the Notice of Revision below where it states, “The Prosecution Staff intends to continue working with APCD on this issue, and, if necessary, study potential impacts of pumping requirements.”
IF NECESSARY? STUDY POTENTIAL IMPACTS? Hello? Isn’t that something that should have been done BEFORE issuing the CDOs?
The second thing of interest is in section B: Interim Compliance Requirements, wherein the RWQCB is NOW considering something that should have been done YEARS AGO: (1) have the contents of the Septic System pumped and (2) obtain a report by the County of San Luis Obispo, a septic tank pumper or other inspector approved by the Executive Officer, that either describes recommended repairs to the Septic System or states that no repairs are necessary. And etc.
In other words, the RWQCB – now – is recommending that all the tanks in the prohibition zone be . . . inspected. Hello? Isn’t that something that should have been done BEFORE issuing the CDOs? Isn’t that something residents have been hollering about doing for years while the RWQCB and the County turned a deaf ear? You know, under Resolution 83-12, form a Septic Management District and inspect and repair all the tanks? Hello?
And, finally, please note that “The County of San Luis Obispo” – the Runaway Bride in all this -- NOW appears in the suggested interim compliance requirements. And here we’ve been told that the county has no involvement with Los Osos, noooo, no way, no how. Not our tanks, not our problem, buh-bye.
Still missing, of course, are “potential impacts” on removing millions of gallons of water from the watershed and other issues that, “if necessary,” still need to be resolved. A prudent regulatory agency would have postponed the hearing in light of these, uh, unresolved potential impacts, but not our stalwart RWQCB. Nossir! The CDO hearing will march forward blindly into the great unknown. Theirs is not to wonder why . . . . .
NOTICE OF REVISION TO PROPOSED CEASE AND DESIST ORDERS
R3-2006-1000 THROUGH R3-2006-1049
The Prosecution Team of the Central Coast Regional Water Quality Control Board (Central Coast Water Board, or Water Board) has decided not to recommend bimonthly septic tank pumping at this time. We have consulted with the Air Pollution Control District. APCD representatives are concerned that bimonthly pumping of approximately 4300 septic systems may cause significant adverse impacts. The Prosecution Staff intends to continue working with APCD on this issue, and, if necessary, study potential impacts of pumping requirements. We may recommend the Water Board require a pumping regime in future orders after further consideration of these issues.
At the April 28 hearing, the Prosecution Team will recommend the Water Board wait until it has additional information before considering this requirement. A copy of the revised Cease and Desist Order template is attached. This revision does not change the scope of the hearing, unless the Chair issues a revised hearing notice or hearing procedures. The Central Coast Water Board may still decide to consider issuing pumping requirements at this time.
The Revision:
STATE OF CALIFORNIA
CALIFORNIA REGIONAL WATER QUALITY CONTROL BOARD
CENTRAL COAST REGION
895 Aerovista Place, Suite 101
San Luis Obispo, CA 93401
CEASE AND DESIST ORDER NO. R3-2006-____
Requiring
[NAMES]
OWNER AND OCCUPANT
[ADDRESS], LOS OSOS
APN [#]
SAN LUIS OBISPO COUNTY
TO CEASE AND DESIST FROM DISCHARGING WASTES
IN VIOLATION OF A BASIN PLAN PROHIBITION
PRESCRIBED BY THE CALIFORNIA REGIONAL WATER
QUALITY CONTROL BOARD, CENTRAL COAST REGION
The California Regional Water Quality Control Board, Central Coast Region (hereafter Water
Board), finds:
1. ___________ own(s) and operate(s) an on-site wastewater treatment and disposal system
(Septic System) at (Site) in Los Osos, California. The Site is a residence. The Septic System
consists of a septic tank that discharges wastewater to an on-site subsurface disposal facility.
_____ is/are referred to in this Order as “Discharger.”
2. The Site has no wastewater disposal facility other than the Septic System. Waste generated at
the Site includes human waste and wastewater from toilets and from domestic activities such as
bathing, laundry, dishwashing and disposal of garbage.
3. This waste is discharged to the Septic System. Liquid waste then discharges from the Septic
System and eventually to groundwater.
2. The discharge of waste from the Septic System violates a prohibition of waste discharge from
individual sewage disposal systems set forth in the Water Quality Control Plan, Central Coast
Basin (Basin Plan). ). The Water Board adopted the prohibition on September 16, 1983. The
Basin Plan prohibition specifies, in part (page IV-67):
“3. Discharges from individual and community sewage disposal systems are prohibited
effective November 1, 1988, in Los Osos/Baywood Park area depicted in the prohibition
boundary map included as Attachment “A” of Resolution 83-13”.
CDO No. R3-2006-«R32006» -2- April 28, 2006
The prohibition boundary map is contained in Appendix A-30 of the Basin Plan. The Site is
within the prohibition area.
4. On January 27, 2006 and February 28, 2006, notice was provided to the Discharger and other
affected persons regarding the Water Board’s consideration of this Order.
5. The Water Board, on April 28, 2006, in San Luis Obispo, California, held a public hearing and
heard evidence regarding this Order.
6. This Order includes monitoring and reporting requirements pursuant to Water Code Section
13267. The Water Board needs the required information in order to assess compliance with the
Basin Plan and this Order, and to ensure that pollutant loading within the prohibition area is
minimized to the extent possible. The Discharger is required to provide this information
because the Discharger is the owner and/or operator of the Septic System. The staff report that
accompanied the draft order includes additional evidence in support of this requirement. The
Water Board adopted the prohibition in 1983, and it went into effect in 1988, and the
Discharger has incurred little or no costs since then to comply with the prohibition. The burden
of any monitoring or reporting required by this Order is reasonable in light of the severe
pollution that has resulted from operation of septic systems in the prohibition area, and the long
history of violations of the prohibition at the Site.
7.If the Discharger elects to comply with Part B of this Order by pumping the Septic System, this
Order includes minimal monitoring and reporting requirements that will have negligible costs.
If the Discharger elects to propose an alternative system, the Discharger will incur additional
monitoring and reporting costs, as described below. A reduced scope of monitoring and
reporting will not adequately protect water quality because alternative systems are difficult to
operate and maintain, and do not achieve adequate pollutant reduction if not properly operated.
The Water Board needs the required information to ensure optimal operation of alternative
systems. Moreover, the Water Board adopted the prohibition in 1983, and it went into effect in
1988, and the Discharger has incurred little or no costs since then to comply with the
prohibition. The burden of any monitoring or reporting required by this Order is reasonable in
light of the severe pollution that has resulted from operation of septic systems in the prohibition
area, and the long history of violations of the prohibition at the Site.
7. The technical report required by Section A.43.b or 5 4 (as applicable) is necessary to determine
that any alternative to connecting to a community sewer system meets applicable legal
requirements, including the septic system discharge prohibition, and to assess compliance with
Paragraph A.1 of this Order.
9.8. Alternatives proposed to comply with this Order may be subject to permitting requirements,
including the requirement to obtain waste discharge requirements. Nothing in this Order
relieves the Discharger of the obligation to obtain any necessary permit or waste discharge
requirements.
10.9. This enforcement action is being taken for the protection of natural resources and the
environment and as such is exempt from the provisions of the California Environmental
CDO No. R3-2006-«R32006» -3- April 28, 2006
Quality Act (Sections 15307, 15308, and 15321, Chapter 3, Division 6, Title 14, California
Code of Regulations, “CEQA”). In addition, the Septic System is an existing facility and this
Order allows no expansion of use beyond that previously existing so this enforcement action is
exempt from the provisions of CEQA (Section 15301, Chapter 3, Division 6, Title 14,
California Code of Regulations).
IT IS HEREBY ORDERED, pursuant to Sections 13260, 13267 and 13301 of the California
Water Code, that the Discharger shall comply with the following requirements:
A. CESSATION OF DISCHARGE
1. Discharger shall cease all discharges from the Septic System no later than the earlier of (i)
January 1, 2010, or (ii) 60 days after the availability of a community sewage treatment
plant.
2. The due date in Section A.1 cannot be extended except by an amendment to this Order by
the Water Board.
3. This Paragraph 3 applies if a community treatment plant and sewer system will be available
to the Discharger no later than January 1, 2010. The Discharger shall submit the following
information no later than the earlier of (i) June 30, 2009, or (ii) 180 days before the
expected completion date; either:
a. A statement that the Discharger agrees to connect to the community sewage
treatment plant within 60 days after the sewage treatment plant becomes available;
or
b. A technical report proposing an alternative method of complying with Paragraph
A.1. The proposed alternative must be adequate to cease discharges from the Septic
System by the date in Paragraph A.1, and must include a proposed monitoring and
reporting plan. If the alternative involves a discharge of waste that could affect
waters of the State, the report shall be in the form of a report of waste discharge.
“Waters of the State” is defined in Water Code Section 13050(e). “Report of waste
discharge” means a report that complies with Water Code Section 13260 and, if
applicable, Water Code Section 13376.
4. This Paragraph 4 applies if no community treatment plant and sewer system will be
available to the Discharger by January 1, 2010. By June 30, 2009, the Discharger shall
submit a technical report proposing a method of complying with Paragraph A.1. The
proposed alternative must be adequate to cease discharges from the Septic System by the
date in Paragraph A.1, and must include a proposed monitoring and reporting plan. If the
alternative involves a discharge of waste that could affect waters of the State, the report
shall be in the form of a report of waste discharge. “Waters of the State” is defined in
Water Code Section 13050(e). “Report of waste discharge” means a report that complies
with Water Code Section 13260 and, if applicable, Water Code Section 13376.
CDO No. R3-2006-«R32006» -4- April 28, 2006
5. Nothing in this Order authorizes discharges from the Septic System at any time, whether
before or after the date in Paragraph A.1.
B. INTERIM COMPLIANCE REQUIREMENTS
1. The Discharger must either pump out the contents of its Septic System no less frequently
than once every two months, or propose an alternative that will achieve comparable water
quality protection.
2. If the Discharger elects to comply with Paragraph B.1 by pumping:
a.The Discharger shall commence pumping no later than 60 days after the date of this
Order.
b.By three months after the date of this Order, the Discharger shall (1) have the contents of
the Septic System pumped, and (2) obtain a report by the County of San Luis Obispo, a septic
tank pumper or other inspector approved by the Executive Officer, that either describes
recommended repairs to the Septic System or states that no repairs are necessary. If the
Discharger disagrees with any repair recommendation, the Discharger shall provide
justification to the Executive Officer no later than four months after the date of this Order
explaining why the repairs are not necessary. Unless Water Board staff agrees, in writing, that
any recommended repair is not necessary, the Discharger shall provide documentation no later
than February 1, 2007 that the Discharger has complied with these pumping, inspection and
repair requirements.repairs have been completed in the first annual report required by
Paragraph B.2.c.
c.The Discharger shall provide receipts or other written evidence that the Discharger
has complied with these requirements. The Discharger shall provide these receipts
to the Water Board no later than February 1 of each year, commencing with
February 1, 2007.
3.If the Discharger elects to comply with Paragraph B.1 by a method other than pumping the
contents of its Septic System every two months:
a.The Discharger shall submit a written proposal for the alternative compliance method
no later than sixty days after the date of this Order. The proposal shall include a
proposed schedule for installation of the alternative method. The written proposal
shall include a proposed monitoring and reporting plan.
b.The Discharger shall comply with the requirements of Paragraph 2 until the
alternative compliance method is approved in writing by Water Board staff and is
fully operational. Upon approval of the Discharger’s proposal, the due dates in the
installation schedule and in the monitoring and reporting plan shall become
enforceable requirements of this Order. The Executive Officer shall modify the
monitoring and reporting plan as necessary before approving the proposal and
monitoring and reporting plan.
CDO No. R3-2006-«R32006» -5- April 28, 2006
C. PROVISIONS
1. All reports, receipts, notifications and other documents the Discharger submits pursuant to
the Order (including Paragraph A.3 of this Order) shall be accompanied by a statement
from the Discharger stating: “I certify under penalty of perjury that the attached documents
were prepared at my request and under my supervision, and to the best of my knowledge
are true, accurate and complete. I understand that there are significant penalties for
providing false or incomplete information, including the possibility of criminal fines or
imprisonment.”
2. The Executive Officer may extend the due date for any interim or reporting requirement of
Section A (other than Section A.1) or Section B for up to ninety days for circumstances
beyond the Discharger’s reasonable control.
3. If more than one person or entity is a “Discharger” subject to this Order, compliance by any
of those persons or entities with the requirements of this Order constitutes compliance by
all Dischargers. Multiple submissions are not required. However, all named Dischargers
are responsible for compliance with all requirements of this Order, and will be subject to
enforcement for any non-compliance. Agreements among Dischargers regarding which of
them will comply with Water Board requirements is not binding on the Water Board and
does not protect any party from enforcement actions.
4. Discharger shall inform any subsequent owner or occupant at the Site of this Order and
provide a copy of the Order.
5. The property owner shall notify the Executive Officer in writing of any contemplated
transfer of ownership at least 30 days prior to transfer of ownership.
6. The property owner shall notify the Executive Officer in writing of the name of any new
occupant within 30 days after the new occupant takes occupancy.
7. If, in the opinion of the Executive Officer, the Discharger fails to comply with any
provision of this Order, then the Executive Officer may apply to the Attorney General for
judicial enforcement or issue a complaint for Administrative Civil Liability.
FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH PROVISIONS OF THIS ORDER MAY SUBJECT THE
DISCHARGER TO FURTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTION INCLUDING ASSESSMENT OF
CIVIL LIABILITY UNDER SECTIONS 13268 OR 13350 OF THE WATER CODE AND
REFERRAL TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AND CIVIL OR
CRIMINAL LIABILITY.
I, Roger W. Briggs, Executive Officer, do hereby certify the foregoing is a full, true, and correct
copy of an Order adopted by the California Regional Water Quality Control Board, Central Coast
Region, on April 28, 2006.
CDO No. R3-2006-«R32006» -6- April 28, 2006
__________
Executive Officer
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43 comments:
This whole thing proves that the RWQCB is totally incompetent and has no idea what they are doing.
If you read between the lines what you have is the RWQCB acknowledging that some of the technical objections raised by the CDO 45 are of merit. The air pollution issue was raised by more than one of the 45 homeowners. Another interesting point is that in the new revised revised template CDO letter, a notice must be given the Executive officer of the RWQCB if there is to be a change of ownership of the property under question and that the new owner be given a copy of the CDO. Some of the CDO 45 brought up the point that they had purchased their properties long after the 1988 prohibition of discharge and were never notified by the county, real estate agents, the title company or anyone else that the property was under a "no discharge order". In fact, the county requires a statement to the effect that the septic system was functioning properly at the time of sale. The only reasonable conclusion of a purchaser under these circumstances is that they are permitted to use the septic system as designed.
I think that had the CDO enforcement gone into effect, those homeowners who purchased homes after 1988 with the approval of the county would have a legal case against the county for allowing a sale of property without disclosure of the discharge restriction. Would I have purchased a home in Los Osos if I had known that I was not allowed to use the septic system? Probably not - I am one of a family of three. The county could conceivably then be financially liable for the cost of individual compliance, as the compliance was required in 1988 (but not enforced until now).
Ann,
'Still missing, of course, are “potential impacts” on removing millions of gallons of water from the watershed and other issues that, “if necessary,” still need to be resolved.'
You meant to say removing millions of gallons of polluted effluent from entering the already polluted upper aquifer, didn't you??? I know how you abhor writers that write things out of context.
Lest everybody just jump for joy, it also still means that, in the eyes of the regulators, we will not be doing any effective mitigation. Septic Tank inspections are good, but they won't significantly affect total Nitrate loading.
Still, $160/month is $160/month. I would suggest everybody start putting $160/month away (or whatever they can) towards a future wastewater project.
Three things.
1st ... this is good news in one way, people will be able to put off paying for pumping for at least a bit extra time. This is also bad news in one way, this decision may remove some of the motivation to get the discharge problem resolved ASAP. Overall, I am happy, but still afraid that folks will think the RWQCB has caved ... thinking this would be a mistake. They're in a pitched battle with the LOCSD over whether discharges can continue (the LOCSD wants this) or not (the RWQCB's position).
2nd ... Ann, you are wrong. The RWQCB sufficiently dealt with the argument that pumping would make our overdraft situation worse. I cannot comment on other issues, but on the overdraft issue it is pretty much settled unless someone named Cleath or with the same credentials would dispute the RWQCB argument.
3rd ... I wonder, really wonder, whether the Air Pollution Control District would also have some sort of ability to stop construction of new homes in Los Osos even if we do eventually get a sewer. After all, the addition of some 500 homes worth of people and the air pollution from cars and the like that will come from those extra bodies would far excede the emmissions from pumping trucks during the next few years. One could even argue that had the sewer been in place 10 years ago, the air pollution in Los Osos would be far worse than with the RWQCB's scheme.
Overall summary ... I think the APCD folks simply want to be included but their objections will come to naught once a body like CalEPA is called in to settle this turf war. But ... who knows. I think the best way of predicting what will happen in Los Osos with regard to the sewer issue is to guess that every well-intentioned decision will have the worst possible outcome. So far that seems to be 100% accurate.
Verks & Inlet sound a little dissapointed.
No "swift and brutal enforcement?"
Maybe some of that "Founding Father's crud" did make a difference.
This is a great day for our town. We did not deserve this fear inflicted on us.
We are blessed to have brave Grassroots people standing up for us & against the speculators & their cronies.
No, why would you suggest we sound dissapointed? Just becuase of the facts?
I think it's great if we don't have to pay $160/month for pumping. I think it would be great if we don't have to pay $200/month for a sewer.
Dog harps on about speculators.
Heck, if I were a speculator, I'd think I'd be cheering on the actions of Ann, Dogpatch, and the LOCSD and their lawyers because of the costs and enforcement that are being added on homeowners, since it is likely to devalue homes that only cash-rich speculators can benefit from. The low-income and middle income homeowners and anyone that has to sell suffers. Dogpatch and speculators are strange bedfellows.
Shark says "the LOCSD wants discharges to continue." Right. That's why they ran for the board, are working their tushes off, are taking all this ---- from the Dreamers, and are helping the folks fight their CDOs. All because they "want discharges to continue." THEY WANT TO DO IT RIGHT. How many times does it have to be said? Oh, I forgot. They really don't want any solution. They want to stop the sewer. They're doing all this because it's so much fun! I can't take it anymore. Bye.
Great Scott said:
"This is the best place for news on the sewer! Keep up the great work, Ann!"
I agree with the Downey's.
To our anonymous friend ...
If the position of the LOCSD is that we should allow discharges until we can "do it right" (didn't you mean "do do it right"?), they are arguing for continued discharges. Certainly the RWQCB position is that they want the quickest possible plant because they want discharges to stop.
Do you disagree? Certainly if the highest priority of the LOCSD were to stop discharges, they could have done so by contining with the TriW construction. Had they done so, the discharges would be stopping about 2007 or 2008.
I think that the current board believes they are doing what is best for our community, but I also think they've overlooked many aspects of the real costs of their opposition to TriW. This was a mistake.
Ron says he's going to set up a pool where we can guesstimate the total bill and timeframe that Ripley will give us in the August report. I reserve the right to change my tune a bit, but I'll guess that Ripley suggests a plan that involves an out of town ponding system, a combined gravity/STEP system where really deep trenches can be avoided in most cases and a combined Ag-Exchange and Broderson discharge approach to dealing with nitrates in the upper aquifer, saltwater intrusion into the lower aquifer and the overdraft situation. He'll further tell us that unless we conserve water we'll need to take state water.
Timeframe guestimate: Ripley will tell us that construction will start in 1.5 years because of time to design the plant and collection system and to permit the facility.
Cost guesstimate: Ripley will tell us that the system (everying listed above, including design and land costs) will be about $125M.
Timeframe guesstimate redux: I believe that if we were to pursue the idea outlined above, construction would start no earlier than 4 years down the road (because of lawsuits and siting difficulties) and perhaps as much as 8 years down the road.
Cost guesstimate redux: I believe that if we were to follow the idea outlined above our bills would be about $315/month just to build the plant. $125M to design, site and build, 6 years of inflation at 8%/year, $6.6M in RWQCB fines so far plus another $3.6M/year until the plant is finished, $12M to pay back the SWRCB for the defaulted SRF loan, $10M to pay off contractors for work done so far ... for a total of $249M ... if we were to borrow that ammount at 6.5% over 30 years (at 20 years it would be even more per month), it comes to $315 per household per month. Here's the clincher. To even start on this plan, we would need to have a 218 vote NOW and borrow enough of the money NOW that we could pay off our debts NOW which would require us to start paying back those bonds NOW. In other words, I believe the CSD is going to come to us, hat in hand, and ask us to start paying $100/month NOW just so that they are in the black enough to pursue building a plant down the road which will cost us an additional $215/month just to build.
The question is this ... when Ripley comes back with these figures and the LOCSD board tells us ... how will various constituancies react? I predict that half of the dissolvers will say "okay, let's do it" because they see some progress and the other half will feel so betrayed that they will never agree with the current board. Likewise, half of the "move the sewer" group will be in favor because the plant will be out of town and they will still believe that this board is wise and the other half will feel betrayed because this board promised a lower cost WWTF.
The writing is on the wall. Even if I am way off on the numbers, I am still in the ballpark on the message ... this board will ask us to assess ourselves something like $50-150/month starting right now or else we won't be able to make progress and the fines for discharging will kill our town.
If the pumping option is not avilable to the RWQCB, what could they do? They can always fine us for our discharges.
Ugh!
Shark, you are right on target.
ALL:
The sale of Tri-W must be stopped right now. It is not too late. Clearly the CSD is just fine with going right ahead and killing the little guy on the fixed income. Let's see THAT guy try to pay $315 per month. Just who can afford that? The really rich guys and the developers who will be buying up all the properties forced onto the market.
$205 never looked so good - if only we could get that back... Do we really want to live here or not?
Thank you Ann Calhoun, Bill Moylan, Rob Shipe, and all the people who have been working for us! Thank you PZLDF! Thank you Lisa, Julie, John, Chuck, and Steve! See what happens when you don't give up and you don't give in!
Shark is absolutely right about the new board wanting to continue discharges.
If they are intelligent, they certainly understood that re-starting the whole design would take god knows how many years and continued discharging.
So, were they ignorant of that or did they lie? Which one is it??
An honest campaign slogan would have been: 'We promise that Nitrate pollution will continue indefinately and you will be subject to individual enforecement actions until we complete a treatment plant. Vote for us!'
Either that or 'Vote for us, we are naieve and nice and mean well and we really don't know what we are getting in to.'
We all know how Ann hates all these 'lies' that are prologue to the future.
You can't have it both ways. Facts are facts. For the umpteenth time, septic tank maintainence does NOT stop discharging that results in Nitrate pollution.
At least everyone is off the hook for $160/month for the near future!
Publicworks said,
"Shark is absolutely right about the new board wanting to continue discharges. If they are intelligent, they certainly understood that re-starting the whole design would take god knows how many years and continued discharging."
This argument is fallacious and stupid - with that line of reasoning we could also conclude that the RWQCB wanted us to continue discharging since they chose to wait 20 years to enforce the discharge restrictions. After all, it was the RWQCB decision not to enforce. The RWQCB clearly wanted the nitrate levels of the estuary to rise. Looks like they got what they wanted. Why are they complaining now?
Hey, we partially agree Anon!
I think you are right on that the RWQCB must have wanted us to continue discharging indefinitely until a plant was put in place because they waited 20+ years to issue CDOs!
Yep, I'm sure they know now they blew it on that one.
Was my point fallacious and stupid?? Think again. I didn't say anything about the RWQCB, you did. My point was about the LOCSD actions the last 7 months, not 20 years ago.
Don't ya just love how people use somebody else's 'bad' to justify their own 'bad'.
Kids do it all the time, with stuff like, 'it's not fair to put me in time-out, because you didn't put me in time-out last time'.
The RWQCB probably thought we were sane enough to urge the County to get a treatment plant in as soon as possible. They were lax, maybe because they thought they'd save us a few bucks by not enforcing the discharge prohibition sooner, so we could get a plant in.
But who knows. Maybe they thought there was no way on earth that a gazillion lawsuits (starting after 1988) and other dumb decisions would get in the way of completing a project.
Say, now how much did a homeowner save by not paying for sewage treatment for 20 years. About $20,000 to $30,000 if you factor in interest.
Now what's a treatment system going to cost now 20 years later??? $20,000 to $30,000.
Yep, ya gotta love how people rationalize things.
Hey Publicworks,
Some of us living here in beautiful Los Osos were against the Tri-W site because we REALLY CARE about CLEAN WATER. When a purposed sewer is inefficient and not sustainable we challange it. Not because we want to keep discharging but because we want to clean our water efficiently.
Some of us Los Ososians were also against the pumping schedule because we REALLY CARE about CLEAN WATER. Listen to the new board. There are things we can do right now to clean our water. Let go of your precious tri-w. It's of the table people and for good reason. If you are getting upset about the cost, think long and hard at who was responsible for leading us in the wrong direction. Wake Up and Help Us clean our water.
Anonymous,
Don't you realize that if we delay a WWTF by about 5 years to get the "best" one, the total amount of partially treated sewage we will have put directly into the ground is 1.8 billion gallons?
Don't you realize that even if the "new, Improved!" plant is better at eliminating nitrates, it will take some tens of years (last I checked it was more than 50 years) before we will have been able to "catch up" to the nitrate removal from our aquifer that we would have had with TriW?
A real environmentalist who cares about clean water would surely prefer TriW, even with its faults, to some ideal treatment plant that won't be completed until an unknown time in the future.
A fake environmentalist will tell us that we should always put off the good solution for the "best" solution ... a solution, by the way, which keeps changing every month or three.
Sharkey, a REAL enviromentalist, according to your deffiniton, would want the removal of all human activity in Los Osos.
No, the real enviromentalist that I've met look at the big picture.
Thats why the "Aether Gods" are stopping the "Water Gods"
The ARB is a supreme god ! able to change behavior accross the globe!
We owe them one!
Pick a sacrafice!
If Inlet is a "real environmentalist", then I'm Roger Briggs.
Hey Anonymous!
I didn't even say anything about Tri-W. There is NO project right now, Tri-W or otherwise.
So am I to take it that you think those that don't agree with you are against clean water?
Hey, congratulations on your monopoly on caring. Yep, only the recall people cared about Los Osos. Everybody else must just be SOBs.
Listen to the new board?? About what?? Sure, lot's of people listen, maybe if they'd say something worthwhile more often, more people would listen. Listening has only convinced me that a few of them have their own comprehension issues. Shark listens. Maybe the board should listen - ya think?
Have you lived in Los Osos since 1988 Anon?? If so, you've saved about $20,000-$30,000 by not having to treat pollution properly. By any chance, did you invest any of that savings in an advanced on-site system to greatly reduce Nitrates?? If so, then you truly do CARE about clean water.
Otherwise, statements about 'caring' or 'wanting a sewer' are just empty rhetoric. We'll see how much Los Osos cares about clean water when it approves financing a project.
I’ve been following the blogs (this one and others) but haven’t seen any discussion on digging ourselves out of the legal and financial mess Los Osos finds itself.
Are we as citizens to believe that we will never have to pay fines, win all the numerous lawsuits, payback assessments, acquire financing and design/build a new acceptable system within the allotted time?
I cannot imagine the fines going away, and winning all lawsuits. Are our lawyers that good? Will not others litigate when we try to buy an out of town site? Or even inside town somewhere (and where is there enough land to do ponding inside)?
And how are going to convince property owners to vote for a 218 to pay for all of this? We are pretty upset at the cost of the failed project already. We all have $256 x 30 years = $7680 to pay and nothing to show for it. So one can imagine we will not be too eager to assess ourselves again.
Almost daily I ask myself am I the only one that sees an elephant in the room and the king with no clothes? What am I missing? Ann, Ron, dogpatch, what are the options available? You seem to see where the old regime went wrong, how is the new regime going to repair this?
Thanks for listening!
Publicworks said,
"I think you are right on that the RWQCB must have wanted us to continue discharging indefinitely until a plant was put in place because they waited 20+ years to issue CDOs!"
I must have been too flip in my comment because this is exactly the opposite of what I think and I also disagree that the same conclusion can be inferred from the actions of the current CSD.
The reason why the argument is fallacious is that in schematic the argument you make goes something like this:
1. X chooses an action for which they are wholly responsible.
2. Septic discharge continues in the PZ
Therefore,
3. X wanted septic discharge to continue in the PZ
Now let X= RWQCB or X=CSD. In both cases, conclusion (3) is not supported by the record (either written or spoken). That makes the argument fallacious.
As far as the argument being "stupid", I probably should have used the word "simplistic" instead - it carries less baggage. Even the most wise can make the mistake of espousing fallacious arguments and being inappropriately simplistic.
The reason the argument is simplistic is that it is beyond doubt that the reasons the CSD or RWQCB have acted in the ways that they have are myriad and complex.
I've wondered many times on these blogs why water pollution has such a different set of rules than air pollution.
Being a car mechanic, I'm well aware of the rules on air pollution.
It's a huge part of my job now.
Now, we seem to have a nexus.
Whats worse? polluting a body of water that seems to have little adverse effect on the population, or increasing air pollution, which has a known adverse effect on the population?
"Affordability is a trickey question"
Mike,
While there may be well known impacts of PM10 or PM3 or whatever is nasy in diesel exhaust, I think it is a bit of an understatement to suggest that our groundwater pollution has few effects.
Our upper aquifer is so polluted that we cannot use it for drinking water so we have to take water exclusively from the lower aquifer, increasing saltwater intrusion.
As to affordability ... it is pretty clear to me that unless Sam or Arnold or someone higher up the food chain tackles this issue and simply offers us free money (what are the odds of that?), the actions of this board have decreased the affordability of the project ... we're all going to have to pay more.
Bummer.
Ps to Dogpatch ... would you like to explain how continued pollution of our groundwater for an additional four, five or ten years is something an environmentalist would approve of it would be fun to read.
Sharkey, The effects of diesel exhaust is widely known, I would direct you to the California Air Resources Board for more info. As far as I know, Not one single person has been harmed by the septic tanks in Los Osos. (unless someone has fallen into one unreported)
I'm not questioning that we have a pollution problem, I'm just illuminating the idea that the "Aether Gods" have more power than the "Water Gods"
And that maybe there is some intelligence in government.
Oh ya, I forgot to comiserate.
We are going to pay BIG TIME!
Sharkey Says "Bummer"
Second that one Shark!
Anon,
You are right again. Yes, my argument is simplistic. I'll even concede the fallacious point. But all you're doing is making an abstract conclusion.
Practically speaking, the record speaks for itself.
The RWQCB, by not issuing CDOs promptly 20 years ago, effectively allowed discharging to continue (or 'wanted' in simplistic phrasing). Of course they didn't literally want discharging. But primarily they had the power to stop it.
The LOCSD, by stopping a project 7 months ago, effectively is allowing discharging to continue (or 'wanting' in simplistic phrasing). Of course they don't literally want discharging. But they had the primary power to stop it.
The actions are really not that complex. It's the socio-politico-enviro-economico dynamics that are.
So while the Æther gods and the Water gods and the CSD bozos duke it out, we the citizens are thrown to the financial lions. Great.
Bulls in the china shop and we are the china.
So what power do we have to do something about it?
Wait a few more years? Poor Humpty Dumpty Los Osos.
Public Works,
You seem to be quite an expert on who is a fake or real environmentalist. You ask if I invested any of my "savings" in an advanced on-site system to greatly reduce Nitrates. And if so, then I truly do CARE about clean water. What if I only spent $25 on my "system?" Do I still care about clean water? Please let me know because I am having an identity crisis that only an expert like you could solve. Oh, here is a link to my $25 "system"
http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/sawdustoilet.html
Hey, I'm not an expert on caring, never said I was.
I'm not the one who brought up the 'caring' aspect - that was by some anon post. My response was in regard to the idea that people for the old project or who disagree with the board don't 'care'. That's all.
If you're spending only $25 and it enhances your system, that's great.
Words like 'care' can be twisted anyway they want, and the poster did it to imply only certain people care.
Some people are spending a couple grand a year to maintain their systems. Some people I'm sure use way too much water. Some don't spend a dime. Each of them probaby thinks themselves that they 'care'.
Propose the $25 'system' at the hearing. What have you got to lose?
To the Anon that wrote this:
"The reason why the argument is fallacious is that in schematic the argument you make goes something like this:"
That 'whooshing' sound you hear, Anon, is your take flying over the heads of 80-percent of the people that post here.
"Inferred?" "Fallacious?" "Conclusion?" "Argument?" Are you freaking kidding me with those words? What, you couldn't mix in "syllogism?" I can't tell you how much it warms my soul to see someone posting in this comments section that actually took some notes in critical thinking class.
"... it is beyond doubt that the reasons the CSD or RWQCB have acted in the ways that they have are myriad and complex."
Without a doubt.
Another Anon said,
"... how is the new regime going to repair this?
That is an excellent question, and, yes, I did chuckle at your use of the word '"regime" to describe both CSD Boards. Funny.
Bottom line -- they've got a lot of work to do, including a lot of clean-up as a result of previous CSD Board decisions, but given the chance, they will repair it. (In all likelihood, they won't have a choice.) Ann and I say this all the time -- it's not rocket science.
Plus, it sounds like they are already off to an excellent start with the wastewater project update. The train's left the station. This August, get the reality-based plan that should have been pursued in the first place, implement it, fight through the legal and regulatory B.S., and viola, functioning, wastewater system with an out-of-town, amphitheater-less sewer plant, in about three years, that will likely be cheaper, if not much cheaper. Simplistic? Yes. Not rocket science? Yes.
I have to admit though, their job would be a hell of a lot easier (and faster), if bitter, former Solution Group members would simply say, "Hey, we're sorry for what we did to Los Osos with our first failed project -- the 'Community Plan.' What can we do now to help?"
To me, it's not just unfortunate that the bitter, former Solution Group members have never apologized for their terrible, first sewer project, it's appalling. Those 2-years wasted chasing that dead-on-arrival project were disastrous in all of this. That huge waste of time led directly to the haste that created the train wreck you are experiencing today. And they all just shrugged it off, like, "Oh well. What the hell, it was worth a shot."
That is absolutely despicable.
If I lived in Los Osos, I would demand, at every public comment period at the CSD meetings, that former Solution Group members apologize to the community for first, misleading the community on the viability of their terribly designed project, and then, wasting two years chasing their terribly designed project.
Because, if they finally did apologize -- and if there was ever something that deserved an apology, it was that -- wounds would immediately begin to heal. Your community would start to pull in the same direction (for the most part), and the situation in Los Osos would become much, much easier to repair.
So Ron,
When the new board's STEP/ponding plan is shot down by the RWQCB as unacceptable, will it be okay when they say "Oh well ... What the hell, it was worth a shot"?
Yes, it is good that they're finally making some progress studying the situation. I sort of like the fact that they're actually asking a professional (Ripley) to do the work rather than just criticizing the work of other professionals (MWH) as unacceptable.
I am also still bemused that you continue to insist that they will have a cheaper plan. All evidence points to the contarary yet you don't seem to be able to comprehend ... Maybe if you toss out some "reasonable" sounding numbers about things like the cost of the system, interest rates, inflation rates, time to design, site and permit the plant, etc, we can verify your claim that it will be less expensive. In what magic fairy kingdom, Ron, will the new system be less expensive?
As to the issue of whether the new board should be given the chance to build a sewer ... who should give them a chance? Are you saying that Taxpayers Watch folks should just stop advocating for what they believe to be the best for our community? Are you saying instead that the RWQCB should stop attempting to force Los Osos into building some system which will considerably lower nitrate levels in the aquifer? Who do you think should cave to the whim of the LOCSD board?
Sure it's not rocket science, but I believe you and Ann are doing a real disservice to Los Osos by continuing to oversimply the various complexities involved with designing, siting and permitting a sewer/WWTF. Those complexities essentially resulted in the previous project taking seven years. Even if you chalk two of those years up to navel contemplation, it took five years to get all the ducks in a row. While not rocket science, the legal and oversight issues are about half as complex as putting a man on the moon.
Ron,
I like your idea of Pandora and Stan apologizing for pursuing a pipe dream of partial sewering, STEP and a ponding system when all signs pointed to such a system not being approved by higher powers.
At the same time ... and what would probably do even more to allow our community to really start to work toward one commmon goal ... it would be good for Lisa and Julie to similarly apologize. They could apologize for promoting a "solution" that the higher powers will not approve of either and causing additional delay.
Face it, honesty from all involved rather than a refusal to admit that one was wrong or one might be wrong will do far more at helping our community than what is currently going on.
Ron, I am the anon that used 'regime' and your summary of an answer was encouraging but I didn't see any reference to solving fines, litigations, and financing of a new project. That was the crux of my entire post!
When one is up to their A** in alligators one doesn't worry about draining the swamp!
Can someone explain how the ponding scheme by Pandora and Stan is different than the ponding scheme that will be looked at by Ripley?
Same thing, only it's out of town therefore - what? It is still ponding.
Ron, I think you overreach reality when you state that some apology would heal wounds. Some, maybe. But what about the wounds being created NOW by the present board and all of the money they are wasting on lawsuits (that are NOT even connected to "defending" themselves against TW). The wounds they are causing by running with step/steg that has already been shot down twice, the $10,000 a day in fines, the huge paychecks for Wildan/Bleskey, who has managed to churn the CSD's finances into utter chaos. Nobody will pull in the right direction until the daily mess they are making is dealt with. And no wounds of the future will be healing when the fines start coming down because there is no WWTF in place by 2010. (Get real, 3 years is impossible unless all the regulatory agencies and upcoming "out-of-town" lawsuits disappear.)
Sewertoon,
Can someone explain how the ponding scheme by Pandora and Stan is different than the ponding scheme that will be looked at by Ripley?
Size and location?
A ponding system would work just fine if it was large enough to handle the entire area.
One of the main downfalls of the "ponds of Avalon" scheme was the size of the chosen site. Tri W is too small
Yes, thank you Mike for answering.
So then my next question is:
Tell me about smells. Doesn't there have to be a building of some sort to do something to the water before you throw it into a pond? How do you control the smells?
Sewertoons,
There is a fruit, it's called a Durian (sp?)it smells like rotted meat to some people. Some people love it.
Smells are subjective.
But on the not tounge in cheek mode, I think the theory is that if the "smelly stuff" is diluted enough you won't notice the smell, kind of like our bay, all sorts of animals put smelly waste in there (ever get a whif of seabird poo?)but its big enough and has a lively ecosystem so that the smell of poo is nearly gone, instead it smells like it is, the most expensive houses are the ones right next to the bay, must smell pretty good down there
Hi Mike,
I have heard of Durian fruit, yes, stinky! Limburger cheese stinks too! Actually mangos don't smell that hot either. I will now know to stay far away from seabird poo!
I have been down at the bay many times, and half the time it smells sewagy to me. I keep thinking those people living there are the people who want the sewer the most.
And then the people out in the country would want the sewer/pond thing the least. I just think if it smells at all, it is not a nice "Welcome to Los Osos." The prevailing winds flow off the ocean and go east across the valley...
This is a dopey question, but what happens to all of the Chlorox and wierdo drugs and sick animal puke that will be send out there? Maybe it isn't fair to ask you that, but if you know....
Sewertoons said: "Can someone explain how the ponding scheme by Pandora and Stan is different than the ponding scheme that will be looked at by Ripley? Same thing, only it's out of town therefore - what? It is still ponding."
This statement is either a dreamer continuing their "behavior based marketing" or a result of "behavior based marketing"
How many times have we heard "Ponds were denied by the water board" or "We've already studied ponds"?
These statements were a ruse to make you think that ponds can't remove nitrates... THAT IS A LIE!!!
If you know its not true... stop saying it.
If you think it's true... know you were lied to.
And before anyone types in the little box below, anything about ten years of data... you better have evidence that is required. Just because the water board wanted 10 years of data does not mean they required 10 years of data. That was more propoganda.
I heard that question asked once and when the Canadian company said they had the data... the next question was "is it California data?"... more propoganda.
Ponds work... always have, always will. Blame the old CSD if the one pond they picked wouldnt remove nitrates.
Woah! I didn't say ponds didn't remove nitrates - else why would there be ponds in Arcata and those other ecologically sensitive CALIFORNIA towns that HAVE ponds - that I mentioned earlier in another post that I think you, anon, ragged on me about?
The point I was trying to make was not about nitrates, but the possible STINK of ponds. OK, I guess that there are different kinds of ponds. Fair enough. Do they stink?
Also, I still would like to know what happens to Chlorox and wierdo drugs and sick animal puke that we would send out there? Meaning - the pond. Those are not nitrates.
My understanding was that the pond the old board had selected did not have 10 years worth of data to prove it could remove the nitrates. So they were lied to by their pond guy, or they were unaware that 10 years of data would be required. Yeah, let's blame the old board one more time, like that's going to do any good for anyone today.
I also understand at about the same time, the PZ was increased, so the pond in town could not be big enough to work. Let's blame it on the RWQCB. They are very popular to blame these days, too. Like that's going to do any good either.
You point me to a document that says the Water Board did not require that 10 years of data - because to think that the old board went through so much hassle to do a pond IN THE MIDDLE of town and ponds are OK IN TOWN MIDDLES, then to pretend that the water board did not allow them to put one there is rather absurd. Why would anyone do all that work if they didn't want a pond?
Methinks you rant from your own personal agenda. An agenda that stems from some behavior based marketing ploy that has gotten you stuck in a repetitive behavior loop. Get introspective, heal, and move on Anon.
Inlet said,"Sure it's not rocket science, but I believe you and Ann are doing a real disservice to Los Osos by continuing to oversimply the various complexities involved with designing, siting and permitting a sewer/WWTF. Those complexities essentially resulted in the previous project taking seven years. Even if you chalk two of those years up to navel contemplation, it took five years to get all the ducks in a row. While not rocket science, the legal and oversight issues are about half as complex as putting a man on the moon."
At the Dec ACL hearing, Former GM Bruce Buel was asked and answered four time, under oath, if he felt the Time Schedule Order imposed on this project was "unreasonable." Four times he answered "Yes."
My mouth dropped. That was the first time I ever heard any Official Personable admit that what the Old Board was working under was "unreasonable." It's all moot now, but what would have happened years ago, even back when Rose Bowker was on the Board, if the entire board had stood up as one and publicly said, The TSO is unreasonable, the constant threats of the RWQCB are unreasonable, and pushed back hard to get something more "reasonable," something that would have allowed a return to the community, a side by side comparison of in-town, out of town, a prop 218 type choice and vote & etc, etc. etc. I know, too late now. That's one of the great tragedies here, the very people who KNEW this project and time schedule was unreasonable kept quiet and rushed ahead over the cliff.
Really Ann,
You say, 'the very people who KNEW this project and time schedule was unreasonable kept quiet and rushed ahead over the cliff'.
Were the discussions in public meetings. Answer: YES
Was there discussion about requesting more time. Answer YES
Those were public meetings, so no they did not keep quiet. They chose not to fight the state. It's that simple.
They were an elected body, and they did not keep quiet, they made a choice about either entering into litigation (and bringing on fines) or proceeding with a project.
They weighed the cost of a battle with the state where a better result from fighting wouldn't have guaranteed anything.
It's that simple. Guess what we have now. Fines and litigation.
Ann, you are simply speculating that the outcome would have been better if they had acted differently, when there is no way you can know if the outcome would have changed the direction of the plant. It's entirely possible that if they had fought the RWQCB, the town would have been just as divided, and absolutely no progress may have been made.
In fact, we might have been pumping for the last 4 years right now, if your 'advice' had been followed.
Ann,
How much time was the LOCSD given in that TSO initially? From what date?
How many times did the RWQCB extend the time schedule because the only reason progress was being held up was because of actions beyond the CSD's control (although nearly entirely under the control of people named "Julie" and "Al")? How many years was the total delay?
[Note: I am not asking these questions rhetorically, I want to know the answers and I figure that you have these factoids at your fingertips ... I do not. However, I'll tell you the reason that I am asking. I figure that if we add up the time given in the TSO plus the total delay time we'll get a good estimate of the amount of time before an "out of town" plant will start construction.]
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