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Saturday, September 27, 2008

It’s Not The Gong Show, But It Should Be

Our long national nightmare is almost over, but not quite. We’ve got, what? Three presidential debates and somewhere a veep debate to get through. Though that latter is one I’m sure everyone’s looking forward to – the Moose Shooter vs. Mr. Motormouth.

After watching the debate last night, it was clear that what’s needed are a couple of people from Factcheck.org or some other Jes’ The Facts, Ma’m-type organization tstanding on stage next to a couple of HUGE gongs and when either candidate started fudging they’d hit the HUGE gong a good lick. Donnnngggggg!!!! Then a stentorian voice would ring out, “WRONG! THE CORRECT ANSWER IS . . . !” And so forth. That would save a lot of the embarrassing, “Senator, you’re wrong. No, Senator, you’re wrong” back and forth.

Which brings me to this question: Was it just me, or did last night’s debate begin to resemble a Marriage Counseling session, complete with defensive whining, rights-fighting and history-dregding (I always took better care of the kids than you did. You never visited my mother when she was sick. You forgot to mention back in 1953 when I took out the garbage for eight straight days. Don't be naive. I worked my fingers to the bone for this marriage and you never noticed. I never said that. You just don’t understand. You don't understand anything!) Oy!

LOCSD Candidate Meet ‘N Greets

The Red Barn in the South Bay Community Park will be jumping this weekend. The Bay News reports Today, Saturday, Sept 27, from 1 -5 pm, Marshall Ochylski and Maria Kelly are offering up eats with their meet n’ greet. Any questions, contact maria@maria4csd.com or http://www.restore-the-trust.com/

Then Tomorrow, Sunday, Sept 28 from 2 – 4pm, candidate Karen Venditti will be holding her eat ‘n meet n’ greet at the Barn. Any questions, call 528-7116.

And for info on all the CSD candidates, go to http://smartvoter.org/2008/11/04/ca/slo/race/072 or stop by and meet them and ask them whatever in person.

Da Plane! Da Plane!

Well, not quite, but apparently we’re near to at least one settlement with one of the contractors who were hired to build the canceled “Tri-W” sewer plant. Reports the Sept 26 Tribune, Whitaker Contractors of Tempelton was claiming $6.9 million and the arbitrator, George Calkius with the state office of Administrative Hearings, ruled that Whitaker can claim about $1.3 million in legitimate start-up/work actually done/stand-down expenses.

The other two contactors, Barnard Construction and Monterey mechanical, which have claimed gazillions,still remain in arbitration.

What makes this interesting is whenever the Tribune so much as mentioned Los Osos and Sewer and Bankruptcy, they always tossed in the claimed figures $45 million in debt or $60 million or whatever number they were using that day, as if they were real numbers. What they never bothered to make clear was that these were whatever amount in claims the various parties wished to submit (no matter how cockamamie) and claims are not debts, they’re claims. If Whitaker and the CSD sign off on this arbitrated amount, THEN it'll become debt. Big difference.

The same sort of muddlment is taking place in the comment section of this blog whenever somebody calling himself Richard posts some TaxpayerWatch lawsuit/legal document then crows about it being a fact! No, until a judge rules or a jury rules (and/or an appeals court rules) the information contained in the sixteen-gazillion pounds of paperwork submitted by attorneys on either side of a case are merely claims, or factoids-out-of-context, followed by counter-claims and more factoids-out-of-context. It’s a very expensive legal version of, Uh-Huh, Nuh-Huh, Is So, Is Not, Neener Neener So’s Yer Momma. And there is no requirement that anything in the documents must be true, only “true” so far as whoever’s signing them “believes” them to be true, which gives everybody HUGE amounts of prevaricating wiggle room in a constantly changing field-of-belief-masquerading-as-fact.

Just part of the legal game.

Speaking of which, the Medean “Taxpayers Watch lawsuit filed personally against LOCSD board members, will have (unless it’s postponed again) a Hearing on the motion for summary judgment, Oct 1 at 8:30 a.m. at the SLO Vets Hall, followed by a Hearing on discovery motion October 8 at 9 a.m. also in the Vets hall, with the actual Trial itself scheduled for Nov 10, unless Judge La Barbara rules on something or other on Oct 1 or 8 or the whole things is postponed again so as to run the clock out or keep adding to the expense in hopes of bankrupting your opponent & etc. Also part of the legal game.

In this case, the taxpayers, the ones Taxpayers Watch are claiming to be looking out for, will be getting the bill, but I haven’t been able to figure out what benefit they’ll be getting. Medean Revenge will be on tap for the members of TPW, certainly, but what’s in it for the taxpayers and will the price be worth it to them?

67 comments:

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Ann,

Factcheck.org already has a review of the debate online.

On the issue of Whitaker ... I don't think this is a settlement, but a ruling on the amount owed by the LOCSD. If similar rulings happen with the other two contractors, the debt amount will drop from the $80M Ron tells us down to maybe $50M ... still over $3000 for every man, woman and child living in town.

I would also argue that this debt should not be borne by those in the PZ alone ... because this was a district decision. However, if the County proposes that the ... as a way of getting a SRF loan, the project financing include repayment of the earlier SRF loan and the RWQCB fines, I would be in favor of it. The difference between the SRF intrest rate and the market interest rate would more than make up for the additional cost.

I would also suggest that the LOCSD board consider suing both Wildan and BWS. After all, it would appear that there may have been some malpractice on the part of both firms

Sewertoons said...

I think we'll need a new Board majority to sue BWS & Willdan - this Board (sans Joe) is tied in so thickly with them, they wouldn't dare sue.

Mike said...

....dare not sue..???

Could there be a few reasons for not sueing...like further exposure to poor business practices and chronyism...maybe sole source legal contracts with no controls or cap on billing... no clause to require accountability... We sure wouldn't want to consider the possibility of some kickbacks to individuals for not competitively bidding those services...

No, the Schicker led CSD has sworn to transparency... and some day when she and Tacky are gone, maybe then there actually be some transparency... Don't move far Lisa, the judge may have a few questions...

Alon Perlman said...

http://smartvoter.org/208/11/04/ca/slo/race/072 Is a bad link due to error 2008 is incorrect
This may work
http://smartvoter.org/2008/11/04/ca/slo/race/072 Alon Perlman

GetRealOsos said...

Shark,

When I asked you WHY you blog day and night (promoting Tri-W and now Maria and Marshall) and if your wife brings in your meals to you, where's your kids' Daddy, etc. - you asked if I cared about you. I DON'T have to worry that you can't pay for the sewer, that's for sure. You may not pay anything and/or very little. YOU don't have to worry about losing anything!

As far as a plant leaking into the creeks as opposed to the bay, I would suggest you listen to NWRI. They DON'T prefer Tri-W or Broderson. The kind of treatment they would suggest won't spill into a creek.

It does seem odd, a man with your education blogging, 24/7 blogging, and I have to wonder if you aren't doing it for your buddies at Cal Poly. Why else would you? You don't care about people being taxed out of town. You certainly won't be.

You wanted me to say any lie that you've told. I'll turn that around on you...what have I lied about? Can you tell me ONE thing? Your friend Mike says I lie about everything, but can't name anything! You've never commented on my criticism of County (which is interesting).

Yet you HAVE to (re)call the recalled board the "pre-recall board" since history was obviously never your best subject. Facts give you the creeps. Numbers are your thing. Numbers are only as trustworthy as the people wielding them. You are too prejudiced to be worthy of public trust and your positions -- poison to up to 70% of the community -- prove that the man behind the numbers has a slight problem.

If "paying attention to financial matters" you mean "doing the numbers" -- your numbers -- then we don't need your numbers any more than Wall Street needs another accountant in a Shark-skin suit. For you, "doing the numbers" is the same as "fixing the numbers," so keep your numbers, boy.

Mike said...

Are you saying Sharks and Richards "numbers" are of no value...??? I guess then you believe that the Lisa led Board's numbers are therefore valid...???

Of course we would actually have to have some numbers presented by the CSD... maybe some "numbers" like how many dollars has this CSD paid to PZLDF for the failed lawsuit...??? I gather that since the State took the sewer project and gave it to the County that the lack of "numbers" for any honest plan to "move" the sewer, that the CSD is off the hook... but just a minute, isn't Lisa and Tacky still trying to derail any sewer and doesn't that have a cost...??? Just how much have all the "numbers" added up to...you know, the "numbers" paid out to all the lawyers...???

Since this CSD feels "numbers" are unimportant and that we're too dumb to understand, then aren't Shark's "numbers" valid in trying to get this community to take notice of the appearance of corruption...???

Keep up the great work Shark... and Richard too...!!! You provide more honesty that Lisa, Julie, Chuck, Steve and John ever have...!!!

Jane said...

In the beginning some houses near the bay had failing septic tanks. How embarrassing ..... the expensive bayside homes stunk. A grand plan was hatched to make to make the problem appear to be throughout the town. First, with the full support of the county and CCRWQCB, invalid high nitrate test results were obtained from unsecured wells in horse pastures. Next a resolution was draw up to build 1150 homes, increasing the size or the town so it would qualify for federal grants. Lastly, a number of those homes were built with septic tanks immersed in the upper aquifer.

To make it seem legit, they also wrote up a resolution to set up a septic management district. The CCRWQCB has been totally ignored this resolution for over 25 years because it would have exposed the original lie: the PZ was established based on invalid test results .

So who holds the blame for the failures in LO? The CCRWQCB holds the greatest share of the responsibility because they held the greatest share of the power, and had a commitment to protecting the state’s waters. Next would be the county since they allowed greedy individuals to influence decisions to the detriment of the general public. Next up would be those greedy individuals looking for personal gain. Has anyone looked at county records to see who profited on the 1150 homes that were built between 83-13 and 1988? Who owned the lots? Who built the homes?

But those were the pre-CSD guilty parties. To establish the share of responsibility of CSD members you must first determine any pre-CSD involvement. You then must then look at recent affiliations with pre-CSD guilty parties. Any actions of the CSD are reactions to the actions of the past. Who is hiding behind the candidate? What is the hidden agenda?

Maria and Marshall are hanging with pre-CSD guilty parties. This frightens me.

Richard LeGros said...

Hi All,

The TW trial is scheduled for Monday, October 27; not November 10as reported.

For those that wish to see the CSD5's new court filings to oppose the TW's and the Contractor's Motion to Quash; along with the 4th Declaration of Lisa Schicker and 2nd Declaration of Andrew Swartz (CSD5 attorney) please email me at archRBL@aol.com.

Lisa and Swartz are trying to get the courts to compel the contractors and TW to release any documentation of correspondence between the contractors, TW and any and all governmental agencies to establish their fantasy that the CSD was the victim of a conspiracy to destroy the CSD.

TW and the Contractors argue that said attempt of the CSD5 to gather this information is not relevant to the CORE ISSUES (Misuse of ad valorem property taxes) of the TW lawsuit, and that the motion to compel is nothing more than a 'fishing expedition' to gather information to support their conspiracy fantasy.

The CSD5 still do not explain or defend their actions that while THEY HAD IN HAND YOUR PROPERTY TAX REVENUES that THEY decided that spending said money on lawyers and such while WAS MORE IMPORTANT than their legal responsibility to protect the property owners by paying the CSD's CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS FIRST as REQUIRED BY LAW (i.e. the CDF Fire FEE and Assessment Bond Payment).

-R

GetRealOsos said...

Mike,

First, I was writing to Shark Inlet. You answer for him now? You share the same numbers? You work together?

Second, you know perfectly well that Lisa and Julie want a sewer. Jeff will finally be able to build. Lisa may want a better sewer than the one you want. You feel compelled to lie about this again and again. It is obvious that you have to repeat this lie in order to sell your case!

Third, you talk about numbers? How about the State help pay for the sewer since its the State's groundwater?! The State benefits and should help pay according to the 218. Numbers? How dare you...and Shark. The numbers would be a lot lower if the proper agencies paid what they should under the law. But, no, you don't want that. You want Tri-W with gravity, No matter how you slice it, it will be the most expensive system, and, of course the County will make more profit. Cal Poly will make more money (with the extreme amount of digging much deeper than the Step).

Jane,

You are one that presents the true facts. I appreciate that someone makes sense around here on the history. You also ask good questions.

Who did benefit after 83-13? Who got to build?

Again, I have to ask why no infrastructure fees were collected by the County for those 1,150 homes. (Shark Inlet won't address this issue and neither will Mike - what else is new?)

Sewertoons said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sewertoons said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sewertoons said...

jane is worried that Karen Venditti won't win a seat to keep the board majority in the hands of the Gail bunch, thereby keeping the lid on all of the un-transparent and shady activities that resulted in missing money that would be revealed from going after BWS and Willdan.

You should be afraid jane, but not of the ancient and immovable history that you are attempting to smear onto Marshall and Maria.

You only need to look at the present test results and grants awarded to study feminized bay fish to realize that Los Osos needs a sewer and that the failing PZLDF case (also threatened by the upcoming election) will not result in the breaking up of the PZ and punishment of the RWQCB and County that you so desire.

The mistakes of the past should not be rectified by ignoring the present dangers.

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons,

Why don't you fill us in on this study?

You say, "You only need to look at the present test results and grants awarded to study feminized bay fish to realize that Los Osos needs a sewer.."

Who did the study? SharkInlet and Professor Kitts? Or Dan Berman? Cal Poly? RWQCB-funded Morro Bay Estuary Program?

Details, please!

I'm beginning to wonder if Karen isn't desired for the CSD by Richard, Gordon, Maria, Marshall, and all "Dreamers" because if Maria and Marshall would be elected, then the CSD would never bring the proper lawsuits forward. No public waste of the recalled board, no suits against the State Water Board for an illegal loan, no suits for both illegal 218s, no suit against the illegal PZ zone.

Maybe that's why Maria and Marshall HAVE to win!!!

franc4 said...

Hey Mike,

Since you and Richard are so good with numbers, let's see some numbers that how much TW has cost the taxpayers y'all are so concerned about.

...and another one of your wishfull thinking statements:
" Don't move far Lisa, the judge may have a few questions..."
to which I repeat, wishfull thinking. The only question the judge will be asking is "and when will you and Julie be filling a deflamation lawsuit against Mike, Richard, Gordon and Joyce?"

..and the winning dumb statement;

"We sure wouldn't want to consider the possibility of some kickbacks to individuals ......"
I think that's what you and your pals (Richard, Gordon et al)should be worried about...as well as their past "transarity".

You never cease to amaze me in how you accuse others of exactly what you and your pals are guilty of and fear. I've always heard that people who accuse others of things,or actions are usually guilty of the same thing. You, Richard and Gordon fit the mold, perfectly.

Jane said...

Sewertooons:

I am not arguing about whether we need a sewer. It is clear that something needs to be done, and the solution should be based on the best and most current environmental science available. We have the bay to protect.

The real question is whether we needed a sewer in 1982-83. The actions of greedy people assured our fate by building houses with septic systems in direct contact with the groundwater. The federal grant money that was suppose to pay for a sewer dried up before we could qualify, yet the houses continued to be built, and the greedy continued to profit. We are the ones that now have to pay for their greed.

Naturally, when the federal funds evaporated, the county got rid of the responsibility as soon as possible. As the original CSD lied to us regarding the viability of their project, neither the county nor the CCRWQCB made an effort to inform the people that it would not work. The current county staff spends far too much time with CYA and this interferes with their objectivity. They pander to the very crooks that profited from this tragedy.

I don’t want anyone who is in bed with these crooks to be handling my tax dollars. Kelly and Marshall will not get my vote.

Mike said...

franc... As you should know, the lawsuit is against 5 individuals, NOT the CSD... So any funds being spend by the CSD are also illegal...

So far Julie is in no position to file any "deflamation lawsuit"... Not sure what "deflamation" is, but if you are trying to say that Julie can prove there isn't any truth about her lack of self control in keeping her pants on and committing adultry while in a very public affair is defamation, then she should have at it... Lisa can cry all she wishes, but but the end of the trial, she won't have any case against TW either...

But hang in there franc, who give us all a laugh over your ignorance and plain stupidity regarding what takes place in Los Osos... Just where did you say you lived... Orange County...???

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Franc raises a good point (although not perhaps intentionally) about the costs of the bankruptcy and RWQCB fines. Those who oppose TriW like to lay those costs at the feet of the pre-recall board (those who were recalled) for even starting down the TriW path. Those who opposed the recall like to say that those costs are associated the stopping of TriW. Both sides like to say it is the other side's fault.

I think that it will be hard to get over this issue until we start trying. Ann has suggested a Truth and Reconciliation commision (as it were) where everyone tells the truth about what they did and there is no legal impact of admitting one's actions. Perhaps that would help folks be more open about their roles. I wonder, myself, but her suggested starting point is better than what most of the rest of us have come up with. Richard would hope that the TW lawsuit for public waste would clear things up ... and it likely will for a large fraction of the town ... but it probably won't help the healing process.

I am still hoping that by electing folks who won't continue hiding the post-recall actions taken in closed session without announcement or public input we can move past this. Whether you agree with the whole "move the sewer" thing or not, you've got to admit that there were some huge flubs by hiring BWS and Wildan and that funds were shifted around without proper oversight and that the LOCSD ended up not having enough money to pay their legal obligations (like the bond payment and fire payments). Essentially, even if hamstrung by the recalled CSD directors (which I don't really believe), they made some really poor choices.

I think that if Lisa and Chuck come forward and tell us what happened in those meetings and what happened with the money that seemed to disappear within a year of the recall (millions) we could start to heal.

If there is to be a truth-n-reconciliation commission, the board members on both sides need to be open about what happened.

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Richard LeGros said...

Sharkinlet,

Yes, a complete, transparent and honest account of the actions and the financial decisions made by the CSD5, with emphasis on the actions of Wildan and BW&S, that acknowledge the causes of action in the TW lawsuit would go a long long long long long way to making the TW lawsuit go away.

Additionally, the continued attacks by the CSD5 and others (Ann to name one)that TW and the TW lawsuit as just medean and vindictive do nothing to promote a resolution to the TW lawsuit. What good does insultng and vilifing those that you want to do something else help to promote that other action?

-R

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal ...

Lots of stuff from you in the last 24. Let's talk.

You suggest that I won't have to pay much for the sewer. I'll be paying exactly what folks in Bayridge and Vista de Oro will be paying. Unless, of course, the costs are driven up considerably above the cost that was associated with TriW ... which, I guess is a possibility if there are additional delays with whatever the County ends up choosing. It is in my benefit, as it is in yours, to get the cheapest reasonable system to handle all our water issues: waste, ground and sea.

NWRI ... they essentially ignored the cost question in their analyses. They didn't deal with the likelihood of a spill into a creek. It also cannot be said that there is no possibility of a spill with any collection system or treatment method even though you would have us believe otherwise.

As for whether you've lied, I think that your statements could be more fairly characterized as lacking in grace and a willingness to assume the worst about others. I believe that you believe that Maria is a bought-n-paid-for flak for the County. You believing that is fine. For you to say such things as if they are facts ... without knowing for sure that they are so ... is technically the equivalent of a lie. This is like when you said I didn't live in the PZ. It was your lack of knowledge that caused you to make a misstatement. No big deal on that one ... but your lack of grace towards those you disagree with does get old and is probably why Mike (in particular) is so quick to say that you're lying (like, for example, when you told us that Maria and Gordon knew each other in Oregon because they lived in the same town ... which, by the way, they did not).

The reason I've not commented on your criticism of the County is probably because I've seen more outrage than a focused train of thought that I could comment on. If you would like to re-state your comments on the County, I would be happy to comment.

As for the whole numbers thing ... quite a while ago I put an excel spreadsheet up on the web ... with some numbers and assumptions ... that would allow someone to determine whether the attempt to move the sewer out of town will save us money or not. I asked others to take that spreadsheet and work with it and make their own assumptions about the interest rate and inflation rate and cost of construction, etc. I suggested that the people who were telling us that out of town would save us money show us a similar set of calculations that showed a cost savings. No one did. You are right ... that the "numbers are only as trustworthy as the people wielding them". In this case, I put my data and assumptions on the table for any and all to critique and criticize. Contrast this with the folks who promised us a $100/month sewer during the recall. We've seen zero from them even three years later ... which would allow us to see that they were doing anything but lying to us.

Your comment "For you, 'doing the numbers' is the same as 'fixing the numbers,' so keep your numbers, boy" is offensive because it says that I am dishonest yet you've given argument in any way that I've been dishonest. Furthermore, I am now wondering if you're going to take that same approach toward any set of calculations that says something you don't like (like my calculations that showed that trying to "move the sewer" would end up costing us money). Arguments based in FUD simply don't belong in an educated discussion. I welcome your comments after you've taken the time to look into the financial matters.


Later you wrote to Mike and Jane (but addressed me as well) asking about whether the State should pay to clean up our groundwater. I would love it if the State covered the entire cost. I actually think that in situations like Los Osos, that the Feds and State should pay entirely ... but that doesn't seem to be happening these days other than thru programs like the SRF.

I would love it if you could provide reference to the law which says the State should pay (at least in part).

Face it ... the aquifer pollution is an unfortunate fact and figuring out who should pay is a bit of a mess. I sort of view it this way ... the folks inside the PZ are (according to the laws to the best of my understanding based on reading the newspaper about lawsuit results) responsible for stopping their pollution of the aquifer by using septic systems. They're like the kid throwing gravel at the neighbor's house. While the neighbor might want a house with no chipped paint and the neighbor will benefit from a new coat of paint, it is the neighbor kid who bears the responsibility for paying for the home to be fixed. Please remember that I moved here after 1995 and I moved into a place that is not doing any of the polluting. Even so, I am willing to buy in to the Community plan because it is better in the long run for me ... even if it costs more than what I am paying now, it will be lower down the line.

As to your claim that Poly will make a lot of money with a gravity system ... it is unclear to me how Poly would benefit from any County choice about Los Osos. If you would explain what you mean it would be nice.

As for the whole infrastructure fees you refer to ... I am unsure what you mean. Please explain. Until you actually raise the issue, I don't think it fair to criticize me for not addressing it :)

GetRealOsos said...

Shark,

First of all, EVERYONE IN THE PZ HAS BEEN ASSESSED! Have you been assessed for $12,000-plus at this moment?

Regarding Maria, Richard LeGros promoted her from day one. She hangs with that crew. She thanks the County at every chance. Does she think it's fair for the County to profit more for a bigger price tag project? Is it really fair for the County to profit at all? Was it fair for the County to put illegal liens on properties in the PZ? Was it fair for the County to do an illegal 218 with an illegal PZ? Yet Maria thanks them? I have to ask WHY! Either she is very uneducated or she works for the County and Tri-W crew.

Outrage on my part in regards to the County? Yes, I pay plenty of property taxes and receive nothing back at all -- no roads, no parks -- the County has only dumped on Los Osos and is getting ready to rip off the PZ to the extent that hundreds upon hundreds of homeowners have to leave. Will the County pick the most cost effective project? I doubt it very much since so many stand to profit by forcing people out of town -- the gravy train has to make its rounds, you know.

You asked how Cal Poly would benefit? I've stated before, they profit even more from the gravity project with a contract for the biggest archeological dig in California history.

I said it was a coincidence that Maria and Gordon were from the same area in OR. I questioned, that's all. I never stated a fact. Maria never answered and she could have. You are wrong. Besides, how would you know for sure that it's not true?

It is the 218 law that says governmental agencies are NOT EXEMPT if they benefit. Shark, they benefit. The County didn't want to "ask" them, let alone tell them.

What the County has been doing for many years is wrong and illegal -- for instance the PZ: The 218 makes the PZ illegal because everyone who benefits is not paying for their benefit. There were many other questionable actions done by the County on the 218.

You can google the 218 and read for yourself.

You say, "folks inside the PZ are (according to the laws to the best of my understanding based on reading the newspaper about lawsuit results) responsible for stopping their pollution of the aquifer by using septic systems..."
W H A T ? ? What a remark from you. Where's the proof, what newspaper? What lawsuit results?

Shark, the 218 changed all that!

I also mentioned you in the comment to Sewertoons regarding the study she mentioned and asked if you were part of it with Chris Kitts. Were you?

About who should or shouldn't pay for the sewer project is not difficult at all. I think those in the County and at Wallace collect good salaries and should be able to figure it out. After all, that is their job. I heard Bruce Gibson say we need a sewer because we're at Level 3. Is that just the PZ that caused that? Or they talk of preventing further salt water intrusion. Is it only the PZ who benefits from solving that issue?

Shark, I know you know better. You are trying to minimize all of this.

Finally, you know, or should know, that developers have to pay fees for infrastructure.

I said, "You've never commented on my criticism of County (which is interesting)." I did not criticize you like you say I did!

You keep twisting. You have not addressed my main question to you: When you have a nice family, young children, why do you blog, read the blogs, blog, blog, blog, and answer all blogs on each site and do it 24/7??? It's very time consuming, and since you've defended Tri-W for so long -- it certainly makes one wonder...

...That's all for now! What a job you have, Shark. Keep up the good bad work!!!

Mike said...

What the heck are you saying..??

"You asked how Cal Poly would benefit? I've stated before, they profit even more from the gravity project with a contract for the biggest archeological dig in California history."

This appears to be something you've tossed together as some mighty argument that just because there would be excavations, that every shard and bone found would bring the sewer project to it's knees... and that Cal Poly would benefit financially... Well friend, you are very confused and just trying to make another arguement in favor of never building any sewer...

The same sort of argument was used on the Diablo Canyon site, the transmition substation site to be specific... You may have noticed that Diablo Canyon was constructed and a major number of artifacts were recovered...so many in fact that the UCSB team finally gave up and moved out... It would not be suprising to uncover some artifacts in Los Osos... So what...??? Just because anicient indigenous peoples remains are found, future progress does not stop...

You are simply trying to divert attention from the need for a sewer in Los Osos... You could even speculate that NASA would get rich from studying the possiblity that alien life is living in Los Osos... Get Real, get a life, you are just playing "Chicken Little" and you are still just a liar and a fraud...!!!!!

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos, what I referenced in an earlier post was this:

Tribune, The (San Luis Obispo, CA) - April 29, 2008

CAL POLY BIOLOGIST WILL STUDY LINK OF CANCER IN FISH TO DETERGENTS,  MORRO BAY GOBIES HAVE SHOWN SIGNS OF ABNORMAL LIVER CELL GROWTH THAT MAY BE CAUSED BY POLLUTANTS

 
Cal Poly biology professor Lars Tomanek has received a $30,000 grant to investigate why gobies in Morro Bay are developing cancerous tumors. Eight percent of 150 arrow gobies recently collected from the mudflats of Morro Bay had large tumors. Subsequent testing at UC Davis showed that even apparently healthy fish had signs of abnormal liver cell growth, which indicates the early stages of liver cancer.Tomanek believes the tumors are being caused by contaminants in the bay that disrupt the... (etc.)

It wasn't feminization - it was cancer. Can't blame detergents on cows.

Sewertoons said...

jane, you bring up very credible history. Los Osos has needed a sewer for a very long time and I think the WRQCB and the County dropped the ball on many occasions. But so have the citizens of Los Osos.

I have neighbors who have lived here a long time. They have been very opposed to County tainted projects UNTIL this project. I understand their history here. However, the County that caused all of the grief is not the County of today. Which is why they have changed their minds and supported the County process that will THIS TIME bring us a sewer. The County of now can't fix what the County of yore did other than to do a bulletproof job on the EIR and then accept the project.

Maria and Marshall serve on the TAC - just like Karen Venditti and a bunch of other people. That hardly makes any of them "in bed with crooks." I'd be a lot more concerned about what we do know regarding Gail and her continuing influence on a candidate. If you recall, Gail once pushed a no vote on the 218. She pushes salesmen and their alternate technologies. They can be found at the Farmer's Market in Baywood trying to influence our votes. I find THAT very troubling.

GetRealOsos said...

Mike (Crapkiller, Richard, whoever),

You say that I "(...divert attention from the need for a sewer in Los Osos... " and that I am "...trying to make another arguement in favor of never building any sewer..."

These statements aren't true.

I prefer Step, that's all. So what?

You call me a liar, yet YOU feel the need to lie. You have not been able to recall ANY lie that you CLAIM I've told here.

You're a Republican. We know your strategy. Repeat the lie over and over until it sticks. How big of you!

Mike said...

BS...you make up your lies...doesn't even seem to matter what subject... and spread them so officious sounding that some people actually believe them... you are beginning to sound a lot like Gail...

Bottom line, YOU really are a liar...!!!!

Since you don't know me, you won't know that I'm registered Democrat, but unlike you, I do think for myself... and just what does one's political leanings mean in a local CSD election... You really need therapy...You are truely unbelievable....!!!

Mike said...

...and getreal... Do you think that STEP would eleminate the need for exavations...??? and your fear of finding native artifacts....???

There is no magic solution to our sewer need and certainly no one clear solution to reversing the over draft on the aquifiers and the salt intrusion.....

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos says:
"Repeat the lie over and over until it sticks. How big of you!"

Step is best, Step is best, Step is best…

No one knows yet, cost-wise, what "is best," (unless you only listen to Step salesmen). So unless you qualify what you say to mean "other benefits" than cost, you are doing what you accuse others of doing.

GetRealOsos said...

Hello Sewertoons,

I read the article.

I have to note that there are many polluters to Morro Bay, in fact, dozens of polluters.

What comes from the Men's Colony? What comes from the Animal Shelter? Morro Bay is polluted but the report doesn't and can't say it's from septics in Los Osos. Have you seen Morro Bay's leaking pipes? Come on!

Lars Tomanek, the researcher of this study, said this in his article: "The question is where is it coming from? We don’t know that, yet.”

By the way, wasn't it Gordon who originally said we had to show pollution in the bay from our septics to get Federal money for the sewer to begin with?

Wasn't it Gordon who said the Tri-W plant wouldn't do anything for any nitrate problem for 20-30 years, if ever?

Afterall, he is the Coastkeeper.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

Your statement that everyone in the PZ has been assessed is incorrect. Both the undeveloped property owners and those in my area have not been. I am not sure whether you answered my earlier question about whether you've paid anything on your assessment. Could you please tell me whether you've written any checks or whether any of your assessment has shown up on your property tax bills yet?

If not, I would assert there is little difference between you and me because my assessment is down the line ... unless, of course, the cost of the "move the sewer no matter how much it costs" plan of action causes the cost to get too great. Of course, that is not what I want, but if that is the choice that the elected board makes ... as you point out ... I can perhaps opt out.

You suggest that the County 218 process was illegal in some fashion. Please explain.

As to your suggestion that digging deeper means that there will be money for Poly ... you seem to be unaware how the University makes money. If a County (or LOCSD or anyone) finds artifacts, the University will likely not make a dime.

As to the location Gordon and Maria come from, you didn't say that they were from the same area (which they are not), you said they were from the same town in an attempt to suggest something. You were were factually incorrect. A lie ... even if you didn't know it. For you to continue to argue "well, they could have been" belittles you.

The 218 vote is being done in stages and the County was willing to allow those who currently in the "need a sewer or will face CDO's" people to vote first. Other votes will come along. Governmental agencies will pay along with businesses once the assessments start ending up on tax bills. The staged 218 with was to avoid people fussing that the vote was tainted by undeveloped property owners.

I think that your understanding of the whole 218 process and implications differs greatly from mine based on a few of your statements. I am curious. Would you be willing to spell out more carefully (and even slowly ... I don't read that quick) what you are thinking about the 218.

On the PZ definition. My understanding from the Tribune is that the PZ definition has been litigated before (in the 1980s) and that the RWQCB definition was not overturned.

(That being said, I do agree that the PZ has caused a political nightmare and I believe that it's existence has both pushed for a sewer but also worked against one at the same time.)

Nope, I did now work with Chris Kitts on the Morro Bay study. I would think you would want to read it because the study is often misused by those promoting TriW. The point of the work was to identify the source of e-coli found in the bay. It is much like his work in Pismo near the pier.

On the issue of who is causing the pollution in our aquifer ... the nitrate levels in our aquifer happen to be highest under the highest density areas of the PZ and lower elsewhere. Sure, there may be an impact of septics outside the PZ on the aquifer, but the effect is far smaller than those inside.

As to saltwater intrusion, I am afraid that the County plan may not address this issue at all even though the TriW plan was to do this somewhat. AB2701 doesn't ask the County to address this issue at all.

This is a complicated situation and I am not trying to minimize the complications or the pain for folks inside the PZ. One good aspect of the way the County project is going to be funded is through buy in from the water companies. They'll benefit from cleaner water and a reduction in the rate of saltwater intrusion (if that is part of the County plan) and so they're picking up quite a bit of the tab and then passing the costs on to their ratepayers. People outside the PZ will be paying more for water because of this.

On the whole issue of developer fees. You wrote "Again, I have to ask why no infrastructure fees were collected by the County for those 1,150 homes. (Shark Inlet won't address this issue and neither will Mike - what else is new?)". Your statement is a criticism of my not addressing this topic. Don't pretend you didn't criticize me ... again, it makes you look bad.

You seem to be saying that some of these fees were not collected by the County. I am curious about how you feel this ties into our discussion. I don't see how this plays any role. Please explain.


For you to accuse me of twisting things is offensive. I have not and do not. Your main question for me (why do I spend time on this matter) is both misguided and none of your business at all. Even so, I'll answer. (Ironically, if you look carefully in the last 24 hours, you've added far more comments than I have ... yet I don't criticize your posting habits.) Maybe you find adding comments time consuming. Myself, it is something I do between other tasks and while watching TV (as I have already told you). Yet, you have a good question. Why would I do this? Because I care about the truth and about allowing people to read all points of view on these matters and to make up their own minds. I would like to point out, however, that your criticism of my willingness to spend a few hours per week blogging would be a reason to criticize candidates for LOCSD office or any of those regulars who go to every meeting where the sewer comes up. Yet ... I don't see you commenting on these folks at all. I don't see you commenting on Gail's hours of involvement. It seems like a double standard to me.

Oh well.

Please get back to me on the 218 stuff ... the other things you brought up and I addressed seem to be more sidelines than of interest to the greater discussion.

Churadogs said...

Inlet sez:"I would also suggest that the LOCSD board consider suing both Wildan and BWS. After all, it would appear that there may have been some malpractice on the part of both firms"

Now, there's a question for all the candidates: If elected, will you persue lawsuits against whomever evidence suggests malpractice or malfeasance or gross negligence, etc. whether WMH, RWQCB, the contractors, pre-recall CSD members individually, (since it's sauce for goose and gander alike) ,the county and any previous lawyers, previous,past and/or present anybodies if the evidence warrants?

Or if elected, will you shut down ANY and ALL lawsuits, settle and bury everything entirely, forever (along with all evidence)

Which raises the question: Who has a vested interest in either persuing malpractice/malfeance lawsuits or BURYING anything of the sort, along with all records (until the legal statutes' time clock runs out)on both pre-recall and post-election CSD actions.

Now there's a good question for the community to think about.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Good on ya, Ann.

I was not careful when I wrote "I would also suggest that the LOCSD board consider suing both Wildan and BWS." I should have emphasized the word consider. I think that a lawsuit which is a guaranteed loser is not worth pursuing. Only if there is a chance of recovering funds should it move forward. After all, we don't want to be paying legal fees for losing cases ... that's not sound managing of the district. To spend gobs of money on lawyers to pursue political grudges is simply unwise and unethical.

GetRealOsos said...

Shark,

Of course the vacant lot owners haven't been assessed. They will get a vote and if their 218 doesn't pass they'll get fees and charges. That's how it will work for YOU! ...fees and charges! You won't have a lien on your home. Don't act stupid, its getting old.

As far as the County's illegal 218, why don't you read the protest from Attorney Timothy Morgan. I read it in the Rock and I think that story my be online. Morgan is the top 218 lawyer in the State, I would think he knows everything about the 218 since he works hand in hand with the Jarvis organization.

As far as the PZ, that became illegal in 1996 when the 218 was enacted. You can't have only some pay for EVERYONE'S benefit.

You ask why I talk about developers fees, well that's just an example of the corruption on the County's part...just one example.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

Are you saying that because your home has a lien on it but because I'll have to pay fees, things are entirely different even though the amount we'll be paying might be the same? Maybe I don't get the thrust of your argument, but it seems largely the same to me.

I should re-read Morgan's comments. I remember reading them some time back in the Rock but thinking that I don't want to bet the farm on his point of view. Of course, his comments were pretty specific to TriW in it's earlier implementation and not super relevent to how the County is doing things.

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos,

Morgan's letter was full of holes - I'll bet he was not even given all of the facts. You will notice that his letter went exactly - NOWHERE. We all know the ROCK only publishes what IT wants to believe. Unbiased and ROCk cannot be used in the same sentence.

Oh, RIGHT -- ONLY the MB people and those on boats use detergents. Couldn't possibly be coming from those septics and leach fields sitting in groundwater here in Los Osos. Maybe you would then care to also write off the findings of the water testing that showed trace residues of anti-seizure meds and body care products in the upper aquifer?

You remind me of the medical establishment back in the 1840's and 50's that refused to consider Dr. John Snow's proof that cholera was caused by dirty water. They believed it originated from dirty, airborne miasmas because that was the doctrine of the times. Plus there was a LOT of economic and political ka-ka going on to keep that viewpoint intact.

There are definitely politics at work to deny we are polluting, to dis the County process and to say that the 218 was illegal.

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos, you seem to be confused about special benefits and general benefits and who pays what. You can read all about it here:

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/AssetFactory.aspx?did=11849

and here:

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/AssetFactory.aspx?did=13654

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons,

You're not the brightest light bulb Sewertoons!

The Morgan protest letter was written by the top election law attorneys in the State. (Morgan is part of the Republican National Committee from what I understand). He stated his objections to the County's 218 vote and I personally prefer following his knowledge than some County flunkies!

We all know that you prefer NOT to listen to legal experts or sewer experts, but rather rely on Gordon and Richard's opinion. They are your experts.

As far as the bay and pollution, you haven't seen the broken pipes in Morro Bay's collection system? You really should!

Morro Bay has the failed collection system! They have broken pipes, leaking pipes, and sometimes no pipes at all. That's pollution, but, of course, its been covered up for years! I believe it was MWH who did their system.

I'll ask you this AGAIN:

Wasn't it Gordon who originally said we had to show pollution in the bay from our septics to get Federal money for the sewer to begin with??????

Wasn't it Gordon who said the Tri-W plant wouldn't do anything for any nitrate problem for 20-30 years, if ever??????

Isn't Gordon your Coastkeeper????

WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS?

I'll ask you what I've asked Shark, why do you feel the need to blog and defend Tri-W, TW and Maria all the time? Could it be "brownie points" for hubby? or the two homes you own that you think will be at Carmel or Santa Barbara prices with the gravity sewer?

You better forget about your homes increasing their value any time soon. Have you been so busy reading blogs that you haven't noticed the Country is almost in a Depression? Nope, the big gravity sewer will not make you rich now!

GetRealOsos said...

Shark,

This playing stupid on your part is getting really really old and really really boring.

Like I said before, you'll have no lien on your home - just some fee, not the same Shark!

I'll repeat, my home w/lien for $25,000. plus my lateral hook-up charges (could be $5,000.-$10,000.), plus my fees and charges (there's the blank check).

You're a numbers man and don't see the difference between my real cost and your fee? Your fees won't have interest added either.

You, Shark, will only have A FEE -- yep, only a fee, IF AND WHEN Monarch Grove decides it wants to hook up to the big sewer (guess Monarch wouldn't hook up it Los Osos goes Step...)

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

The difference between a lien and a fee is only this ... you cannot sell your home without clearing up the lien if you are behind on the payment ... while if I have a fee, if I am behind in my payments, somehow the the County (or later, the LOCSD) would have to come after me in a different legal fashion. In both cases, it could be the same monthly amount (depending on where you live) even though you pay via a different mechanism.

There is no difference like you would imagine.

There is a difference in that the County (just like the Ripley plan floated by the LOCSD) would ask you to deal with costs associated with getting your crap all the way to the sewer main in the street. I've already got one. My costs will be lower because I've already paid extra to have a the lateral installed and I'm already paying more than you are now for wastewater treatment. Have you been paying about $100/month for the last 10 years? Until you can tell me that your septic costs have been over $12k in the last 10 years, I don't want to hear you whining about how much you're going to have to pay.

Your statement that my fees won't include interest payments is not what we were told by Paavo and John who said that if we choose to opt it, we'll have to do so at the start of the borrowing and our cost will be proportional to the costs of providing services to us. I.e. interest on the bond will be included. The further said that if we were to try to opt in later, it would only be allowed if there was capacity and if we paid the interest in arrears.

You seem rather reckless with the facts, here. I wonder what justification you for your statement "Your fees won't have interest added either" because unless you can tell us a logical reason for writing this, we'll have to conclude you are pulling this fact ex-rectum and we will know that you are willing to make stuff up just in this discussion. That being said, step up and explain where you got that factoid which appears to me to be a misunderstanding or deliberate misstatement.


On the question of whether Monarch will want to hook up to the Community system, we will likely want to tie in either way. If STEP, the cost of doing so will be higher, but we would likely finance the additional costs (putting in a community septic tank) and will prefer to tie in than to not.

Overall, you seem to be quite quick to make assumptions and assume your assumptions are right. Perhaps you should do a bit more research and ask questions first instead.


Now, because you are so concerned about my family life, I am off to cook dinner so that my wife can go out with a friend. Later tonight I'll put some kids to bed between 8 and 9 so you won't likely see any comments from me then. After that, I'll be watching TV with the older kids (maybe food detectives or hacking history). I might check back then.

Perhaps if you're gonna criticize or comment on my family life, it would be great if you would explain about your own interest, willingness to participate here and family life.

GetRealOsos said...

Shark,

You are twisting yet again when you say, "I don't want to hear you whining about how much you're going to have to pay."

Aren't you the Lucky One. You don't have a lien, you won't have a blank check project and your street won't get torn up. I'd personally rather have two days of disruption per home with STEP -- at many millions of dollars less -- versus 5 to 10 years of the colossal mess of gravity. Yup, you've got an awful lot to say about something that doesn't affect you much at all. No wonder you work so hard for Tri-W and the County. You're waiting on your hind legs for them to throw you a biscuit.

And, that lien that Lucky You doesn't have...? I guess the County won't be taking your home if you can't pay in 3-5 years. Guess you don't live under the threat of losing your home. No wonder you're not sweating. Quite the opposite. You promote what only a few can afford. Mighty white of you to think of your neighbor, Mr. Taxman.

The County has said already that the cost could easily double. You won't feel a thing, will you, Mr. Lucky? Since you don't even know or care who you neighbors in the PZ are, it's no skin off your weak back.

Goes back to you being a phony, in my humble opinion -- acting all along like you were in the (real) PZ when you are not. You are in Monarch Grove -- it's a completely different story. Vista De Oro and Bayridge have been assessed. You aren't even in that category.
Your category is the phony baloney category -- by the pound.

Glad to hear you'll finally be spending time with the kids! They were asking mommy who that strange man is living on the computer and when is daddy coming home. It's been years...

When, Daddy, WHEN???

*PG-13 said...

(sigh)

The last bastion of idiotic reasoning: personal attack.

Even worse, bringing the wife and kids in for ridicule.

Get Real. Grow Up!

You got a point? Make it.
You got a problem? Fix it.
You got an urge to insult wives and kids? Stuff it.
Get a life.

GetRealOsos said...

PG-13,

You got it wrong. You're off base. I didn't insult anyone's wife or kids. I insulted Shark perhaps, but I kid the Shark because he blogs all day and night (but you wouldn't know anything about that). Besides, a personal attack would only be if I knew him.

You have NO sense of humor.

Among your many skills is one of them protecting Shark, the notorious spinmaster for TW, Tri-W and Recalled Board, who attacks anyone who doesn't agree with him?

Shark doesn't need any help, Ted, and I don't either!

Grow up. Find a cause that matters to you. You have friends/family in the PZ, but you only have your opinion. Criticize something worthy of commentary.

P.S. In fact, why don't you go ahead and skip the stuff that I write if it's so offensive to you.

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos says:
"I personally prefer following his (Morgan's) knowledge than some County flunkies!"

You are entitled to that opinion. Go make a lawsuit out of it - except you and I have been through all of this before if you recall. What's your point at this point? The 218 is a done deal for home owners, so get over ragging on it.

Yes, I've seen the video of the broken pipes. That means they have to fix their pipes and we need to get some. Their broken pipes doesn't mean we don't need any. What year did MWH put those pipes in if indeed they even did the job? What are they made of? How did Morro Bay maintain those pipes? Should we maintain ours better than that? Do you think infrastructure comes with no maintenance?

We in the PZ have had a break from sewer-paying for the last 30 years. Time to pony up. I paid down in LA for the 17 years I owned my house there. So what. Part of life. LA didn't fight a sewer for umpteen years, and I paid $20/mo. Those who have fought the sewer all along deserve the poor opinions of many of us for making this thing so expensive.

getrealosos says:
"Wasn't it Gordon who said the Tri-W plant wouldn't do anything for any nitrate problem for 20-30 years, if ever??????"

He said 20 or 30 years. What we have done to ourselves will take a long time to fix, no matter which system is chosen. The sooner we start fixing it the sooner it will repair itself. Maybe this process can be sped up if the water purveyors wish to do injection wells with the cleaned water, but that is up to them to decide, NOT the WW project.

I have no idea who said what about federal money. Just know through the state (SRF - from the EPA) it is the cheapest money we will get to finance this thing.

Like it or not getreal, Gordon is everyone's Coastkeeper. What have you done lately to contain your pollution or to lighten the load on the Los Osos water supply? Been busy suing Greka Oil?

You make a good point when you say,
" …my lateral hook-up charges (could be $5,000.-$10,000.)" Yep, with STEP, rather than gravity, those charges will be a whole lot higher for most. You claim gravity won't make me rich now. A big STEP collection system will not make me rich, either. POORER actually, with the huge on-lot impacts.

Mike said...

ah, the next most perfect poster child for the post recall CSD...getrealosos...

first we have the senile Schicker, then the moral-less Tacker and now honest getrealosos...

Ain't Los Osos the most wonderful garden on earth.... that is outside of Corvalis or maybe Bakersfield...

We're all laughing at you, not with you...

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons:

You don't get my point.

Any pollution in the Bay could VERY well be from Morro Bay's degraded collection and treatment.

You simply can not blame all Bay pollution on Los Osos septic tanks. It's plain ridiculous.

If the RWQCB really cared about clean water and Bay they would have made Morro Bay clean up (rather than cover it up) and they would have not allowed 1,150 more homes built here with septic systems. They would have inspected all septic systems back in 1983 and made sure the ones that weren't in good shape be replaced.

My complaints aren't so much about the expense, but rather the injustice of it all, the corruption of it all, and the immorality of it all.

When the Federal government should help pay to clean its Bay, and the State should help clean its groundwater, and the homeowners outside the PZ should help with their benefit of solving salt water intrusion, cleaning the groundwater, etc. -- did I say they all SHOULD HELP. I mean legally they should.

But this is Los Osos and SLO County -- who follows the law here - who watches out for the taxpayers?

Certainly not you, not Maria, not TW, not the recalled board.


Mike,

You are all laughing at me? Does that mean all of your different personalities, i.e. Crapkiller, Richard, etc.?

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal ... would you get real?

You are now fussing that I paid for a home which already has a lateral and that you now need to pay for a lateral. You are also fussing that I've already paid other costs which you need to pay in the future. Frankly I find this an interesting and untenable position ... that people who have already paid their share have no right to an opinion while people who haven't should be able to voice theirs.

Somehow you think that a lien is different than a fee.

Fine ... whatever.

No worries. We disagree and you seem somewhat uninterested in anything but disregarding my point of view on this matter. Let's move on because wasting time is not worth it.

Moving on ... your feigned interest in my family life is crossing the boundary from reasonable (yet probably false) into unreasonable and unjustified criticism. I notice that you offer no details about your own family life and your own interests in this discussion and yet you offer up sarcastic comments about my own family life based on your own willingness to cross the boundary into rude and off-topic comments.

I can and will ignore your future comments on my family life because they are out-of-bounds. I would suggest that you not make any because if you do it will show that you are more interested in trying to provoke me than you are in a reasoned discussion of the Los Osos situation.

Finally, in re-reading your comments, I find little of value and much that you intend to be insulting, so I offer up a kindly "go pound sand".

I'm also finding some humor that the person who has nearly doubled my comments in the last 30 hours is fussing that I'm blogging "all day and night". Oh ... I also realized that because I don't know GetReal, anything I write cannot be considered a personal attack. That being said, GetReal eats road kill and licks the plate.

GetReal, you claim that I attack anyone who doesn't agree with me. I challenge you to offer any evidence of me attacking a person who disagrees with me (other than Ron who has been such a special person that I have chosen to treat with the same level of respect he shows me and others he disagrees with). In particular, I've been pretty kind to you. For you to bring my family into it in an insulting an mocking tone just seems ... sort of ... over the top rude to me.

GetRealOsos said...

Wrong again, Shark!

I'm fussing about the big "rip off" of the PZ. You disregard it because you can afford the most expensive sewer per capita in US history -- and even promote it. I'm fussing about the injustice. You disown anybody with an income $1 less than yours -- seniors, grandparents, low, fixed and no income. Family ties mean nothing to you. I'm fussing about how many have gotten sick over this injustice. Heart attacks, strokes, and death, even at this very moment. Over a sewer? NO, over the injustice of it all.

And you don't even blink.

So typical of someone head over heels into numbers -- no feelings, no social responsibility skills, just "give me mine, me, my buds and cronies."

The people who live outside the "assessed area" can live normal lives without worry. Lucky you!

Since you possess all the compassion of a carjacker, what happens in the "assessed area" to those who live in the "assessed area" -- you have no worries. Yet you think your an authority on something, what it it isn't exactly clear, unless you believe being a statistician for the math-challenged recalled board makes you "an authority."?

You remain indifferent to the fact that you defend and promote those who will hurt hundreds and hundreds of people, especially in times like these -- and you think nothing of it. Class cleansing -- it "ALL GOOD" for Sharky.

I can afford the sewer, but when I see families around town, I know that they can't. I see the older women and men who have suffered for years over this. Sharky, you either have blood in your veins or something else.

What kind of people do that to neighbors in a small town? Gordon, Stan, Richard, Pandora, now Maria (and Lynette): How can you defend the County that refused to help get the governmental agencies to help out financially to help ease some pain (especially when they're legally responsible)???

You're no Democrat, Shark, (and from Berkeley - how odd is that? How did you slip through the evolutionary cracks to hang with the dinosaurs?)

Maria is no Democrat. Obama would NEVER do what Maria and crew want.

Pandora is a phony Democrat.

Bruce Gibson is a phony Democrat.

You go pound some sand, Shark, and since you work with Chris Kitts, take him along! Go find your phony pollution and blame it on many innocent people. You are not about truth at all...just a big phony.

Keep your phony job, phony numbers and phony acting -- your one-sided "arguments" show no growth, no change, and absolutely no ability to understand how much damage your corrupt, wrong-headed thinking has done and continues to do to so many innocent people in your community, the community you aim to sink.

Mass misery obviously gives you pleasure, so I don't think I've cornered the market on rudeness just because many find your comments "garbage in, garbage out." Prejudice deserves no respect. Your sadism is directed at a whole class of the community.

That makes you "Mr. Clean."

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos says,

"You simply can not blame all Bay pollution on Los Osos septic tanks. It's plain ridiculous."

Who said I said that? We surely need to clean up our mess as much as they need to clean up their mess. Neither of us is exempt as we are both making a mess. At least they once made an attempt to clean up by actually PAYING for a sewer - we haven't gotten even THAT far along yet.

I agree. Plenty of injustice etc. So? Let's get on with our part of the clean-up, it surely does us no good to whine about the past.

Who watches out for the taxpayers? How about the taxpayers themselves? Aren't they grown-ups?

If we get the new SRF loan, the Feds are helping, even though they are broke. That is the cheapest financing we will ever see. The State is broker, and -- I know you won't like this-- but do you think if the Water Board didn't raise a stink enough people would give a rat's ass about a sewer here to actually build one? So in a way, they ARE helping. Otherwise chances for a sewer are less than zilch. The "outside the PZ" homeowners will get to help with saltwater intrusion through their water bills. The ISJ will finally allow the purveyors to work together to establish interties, safer pumping areas and pumping times - and who knows, that recycled water might just get back into the ground. If it does, we all will pay for it, the reuse component will be for the purveyors to figure out.

If you educated yourself, you would see that Maria has taken a very active part in water issues - raising awareness as to what those issues are and advocating smart water use practices. So what have YOU been doing along those lines? How are YOU part of the solution?

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos, you are getting pretty tiresome and looking kind of unhinged with your continual rant. If you can't get past this, I think you need some mental help.

How about calling John Diodati at the County and finding out what the County intends to do to help those that can't afford this. Educate yourself, then come back and back up something you say with facts.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

You seem to misunderstand and you continue to write things about me that are untrue. Maybe you are simply willing to state as fact stuff which you wish or hope are true and you are unwilling to research or ask.

Oh well.

I am also a bit fed up with the costs of the whole sewer issue. What pisses me of the most, however, is people who say that they want a cheaper sewer taking actions to prevent a cheaper solution. Take, for example, Chuck and Lisa. While talking about saving $20M by building at another site, they ignore the design costs of building elsewhere, inflation in building costs and all of the fines and lawsuits and the like they are willing to take on to get the sewer moved out of town.

While you write of all sorts of compassion about those who cannot afford TriW, where is your compassion about those who won't be able to afford the more expensive sewer we'll get because of the recall?

Lemmie ask you ... are you in favor of the cheapest solution or getting the treatment plant out of town? If push came to shove, which do you care more about? The costs that your neighbors are gonna have to pay or the location of the treatment plant?

If you say you are focused on costs, why haven't you considered the various cost questions I've raised? Why haven't you presented any calculations to demonstrate that STEP is cheaper or that out of town makes more sense? Why are you so willing to toss loaded and vitriolic statements out there without putting thought into the questions at hand first?


And speaking of Kitts, you are very mistaken to try to pick a fight with him. He's more likely than not on your "move the sewer no matter how much it costs" side. Furthermore, if you feel that his conclusions are in error, please feel free to point out where he's made mistakes in his research. If you cannot do that you are simply an uneducated hack who insults things he doesn't understand just because he doesn't like what they imply.

Like I challenged you to give a basis ... any basis for your statement that Monarch fee will not include any interest (which you have not yet done) ... I challenge you to provide any basis for your "phony pollution" comment.

Until you can start to back up your wild assertions, you should know that your comments are only making you look bad. For the sake of a quality discussion, I would prefer you take some time and think before you write.

For example, when you write "Mass misery obviously gives you pleasure, so I don't think I've cornered the market on rudeness ...", you are both being deliberately insulting and you are trying to justify your own rude comments. This sort of comment makes me think that either doing that Mau-mauing that Ann is so fond of saying is fine for political discussion or you have some sort of pathology where you really believe what you write. If you're writing over the top just to make a point, that's fine ... just expect that folks will respond to you in the same fashion and don't get upset when they do. If you really believe what you write you should consider seeking professional help.


I'm happy to chat with you, but I would love it if you would get back to us on the source of some of your more wild claims. Maybe we should keep track of some of your statements and see how well you can justify them.

So far you need to justify (at least):

1 - the claim that the fees for a sewer for Monarch residents will not include interest payments
2 - the claim that the Kitts study of e-coli in Morro Bay is a "phony pollution" study.

Let us know when you're ready to explain these gems.

Mike said...

getrealosos has gone so far around the bend mentally that he can't believe that the County will build a sewer... He has fought against any sewer, he's not really interested in STEP, he just wants to agitate...

Wake up, there is no past, present or future sewer project left for the community to discuss, let alone debate...in getreal's case, de-bait and he's become quite the master-baiter at it...

The only game in town left to discuss is the mismanagement of the Los Osos Community Service District...!!!!!

There have been some corruption these past 3 years that should be the real topic of discussion... Get off the pollution studies, the design types and locations... Thoise are all gone, there is nothing left for those of us in this community of sewer lawyer/debaters to debate... We aren't going to change the direction of the sewer design or location...!!!!

All that's left is to assess the cost damage, and there has been a tremendous amout of damage...!!!! There has been outright theft of our tax dollars by those who were elected to serve... While not public servants, they did have the responsibility to be open and honest... they were and still are not...!!!!

Right now, the only one's who have stepped up and said that this community wants accountability is the TW group... Do not underestimate what they are doing... They have actually put some of the corruption in the public spotlight and have patiently navigated the legal system to bring these charges to court...!!!! Argue till you're blue in the face, acquise everyone you don't like, dig up all the dirt you want, but unless you are heard in a court of law, all you are doing is pissing in the wind like getrealosos has chosen to do...

getrealosos has nothing new other than some self-generated lies and enuendo... He knows only partial truths and then spins them into bigger lies inorder to justify his own version of the sewer war... He is willing to continue the war until the County excavates the street across his driveway... He is a very sick portrait of the malady permeating this community...

Lisa, Julie, Chuck, Gail, Ann, Keith, you have created this illness and you have no cure...!!! You continue the move-the-sewer/no-sewer even today in the waste of time CSD meetings where your social club is still fighting any sewer and blaming everyone but yourselves... You created the bankruptcy but you haven't taken any responsibility to resolve it... You lied about having a Plan, you had no plan... instead, you paid off your personal lawyers and then hired them and gave them cartblanc to plunder the treasury... and you never tried to control the expenditures... You have wasted our tax dollars and are finally about to be held accountable...

So getrealososos, if you can control your own anger and get away from a sewer you no longer have any input about, how about digging into the lack of accoutability of this CSD...??? or did you also throw down your shovel, drop your pants and piss into the wind...????

Osos Change said...

It's always, "Let's blame the current board for everything!" [sans the hundred exclamation points] It's never, "Wait, what have I done to escalate the problem?"

Taxpayers Watch has done nothing to benefit the public. Nothing.

GetRealOsos said...

Shark, Mike, Sewertoons,

You all just don't get it.

Why would the County not ask for assistance with the funding for a project when they could (from both the State and Federal government)??

Why would YOU not insist on this to relieve homeowners?

Why can't the County do this now? (It's not too late.)

I don't get it.

Not to do this looks very much like class cleansing!!!

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

Sounds like you're fussing because you believe the County can just ask the State and Feds for funding and that it should be automagically granted. My understanding is that the County intends to pursue a SRF loan (the way the Feds fund such projects) thru the SWRCB. Unfortunately grant money for these sorts of projects dried up years ago and now it is only thru low interest loans that the government helps out.

What do you want me to insist on again because it sounds like the County intends to do exactly what you want.

The problem here is that due to inflation the project is so stinkin' expensive that it will be painful for us all. If we choose to go with private financing instead of a low interest Fed/State loan, it will cost even more.

It is easy to say stuff like "there must be grants out there" or "someone should help us" but until you identify exactly the source of financial help you want us to fight for, it is hard to do so. That being said, let me where the money is and I'll insist on it as you suggest.


In terms of statements you've made which need to be justified or explained:
1 - the claim that the fees for a sewer for Monarch residents will not include interest payments
2 - the claim that the Kitts study of e-coli in Morro Bay is a "phony pollution" study.
3 - your claim that Maria and Gordon are from the same town in Oregon.

We're still waiting for justification or clarification or retraction of these. Note, as this list grows, I'm trying to not include your claims which are more meant as insults than as facts ... it doesn't seem fair for me to hold you accountable for statements like "you don't even know or care who you neighbors in the PZ are" because while it is not true, there is no way you can prove this even if it were.

Sewertoons said...

getrealosos,

Why do you not reference what has been offered to find out some FACTS on affordability assistance? If you want to complain that you don't like it or don't understand it, perhaps we can offer some sources for help or at least discuss what you don't like.

You say you can afford this, but are worried about others who can't. Instead of generalized whining, why don't you read about what is offered and if you "get" it, offer to explain it to some people whose welfare concerns you but that don't understand the options?

Start here, bottom of the page under Affordability Assistance:

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/pw/lowwp

When you have read something and understand it, get back to us with your thoughts. Otherwise, to continue to complain as you have been, you appear to us to be lazy or disingenuous.

Osos Change said...

If you keep referring to the county as your primary source of information, then you have yourself a problem.

GetRealOsos said...

Shark,

You say, "Sounds like you're fussing because you believe the County can just ask the State and Feds for funding and that it should be automagically granted..."

YES, SHARK, ITS THE LAW!!!!!!

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

Where is that law?


We now have an addition to our list!


GetReal, statements you've made which need to be justified or explained now includes:
1 - the claim that the fees for a sewer for Monarch residents will not include interest payments
2 - the claim that the Kitts study of e-coli in Morro Bay is a "phony pollution" study.
3 - your claim that Maria and Gordon are from the same town in Oregon.
4 - the County can just ask the State and Feds for funding (for a sewer project) and it is the law that such funding automatically be granted.

Please get back to us with an explanation for these statements that demonstrates logical thought and that your conclusion ... if guaranteed correct, at least flows reasonably from facts available.

Churadogs said...

Inlet asks:"2 - the claim that the Kitts study of e-coli in Morro Bay is a "phony pollution" study"

The problem with the Kitts study showed up immediately after it was presented by the old CSD Board (I recall Stan, specifically) spinning his data into a general comment that the Kitts study shows the septics are polluting the Bay. I knew that would happen and it repeatedly happened, to the point where Dr. Kitts had to write a letter to (I think) the (old) CSD saying, Stop making those claims. The Study had identified various e coli DNA from human, ducks, raccoons, & etc. By far the largest bunch was from ducks, birds & etc. The problem was, they did not have the funding nor did they do any studies that would pinpoint where the ecoli was coming from -- and there's a raft of possibilities from CMC to live-aboards, to homeless people living hear the bay to leaking tanks sited in groundwater on the bay & etc.

ABut that didn't stop the spinners from using that study to "prove" whatever they wanted to prove. That's likely why people started calling the study phony. I wasn't a phony study. It was well done. but the conclusions taken from it were phony.

Richard LeGros said...

Ann,

Look forward to seeing you in court today.

-R

Sewertoons said...

The bay is one thing, how about our upper aquifer - which by the way is being used after cleanup in our drinking water supply. Trace elements of anti-seizure meds and body care product chemicals are in our upper aquifer. Imagine the actual quantities of raw material compared to the actual quantities of urine seeping into the upper aquifer. Do you think that there is a connection to the nitrates in our upper aquifer to us peeing on top of it? Go wild, think out of the box. Or do you still want to PAY for lycimeters for under each house to prove the nitrates come out of our septic tanks?

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Ann,

Based on the patterns of where the e. coli levels were elevated, we know that the source wasn't CMC or folks living on their boats. Possibly a homeless guy taking a dump near the bridge in sweet springs. Nope, one cannot tell that the pattern is from septics, but the pattern is consistent with the theory that septics are too close to (or in) groundwater and that the groundwater mixes with the bay water. The other theories that have been floated just plain don't match up so well to the observed data. Kitts is right that his study doesn't show any causal link, but his data does match up to that theory.

The sort of funding necessary to do the sort of follow up studies to pinpoint the point or nonpoint sources of the pollution would be considerably.

GetRealOsos said...

Ann & Shark,

Couldn't this very well be pets and animals?

Sewertoons said...

Human DNA is specific to humans.

GetRealOsos said...

Sewer,

Okay, some dreamers once told me about the animals around here....I didn't realize you were talking human DNA....where exactly were these tests done?

Sewertoons said...

Sorry, not answering until you respond to Shark.

In case you forgot the questions, here they are:
1 - the claim that the fees for a sewer for Monarch residents will not include interest payments
2 - the claim that the Kitts study of e-coli in Morro Bay is a "phony pollution" study.
3 - your claim that Maria and Gordon are from the same town in Oregon.
4 - the County can just ask the State and Feds for funding (for a sewer project) and it is the law that such funding automatically be granted

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal and Toons,

The cool thing about e.coli is that by looking at it, one can tell, to some extent, the species of origin. The e.coli from humans is genetically different from the e.coli that comes from a bird.

That being said, the e.coli identified as being from humans was certainly not from a pet or an animal.