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Friday, June 18, 2010

Uh, Oh, Ron's Asking Those Pesky Questions, Again

Regarding a recent Tribune story on the Los Osos CSD's settlement of the Taxpayer Watch's lawsuit, Ron Crawford wasted no time asking the Tribune one of his on-point, annoying questions.  Over at http://www.sewerwatch.blogspot.com/   Awwww, and I thought we'd be able to get through one week without the hideous sewer wars commencing.  Ah, well.  The Tribune's coverage of all things sewerish have certainly been, uh, very, very curious, indeed. 

The Tribune also reported that the federal bankruptcy judge approved the settlement of the TPW suit and the CSD's insurance company will pay "the bulk of the money."  Some of the regular Sewer Wars Commenters on this blog have gleefully and adamently declared, of this lawsuit, that the CSD directors named would go to jail!  The Tribune story doesn't mention that, which I know will come as a great disappoint to certain folks. 

Left on the to-do list at the CSD is the breach of contract lawsuit with the state water board & etc.  Now THAT'S the one I really, reeeeellly want to see persued because I'd reeeeeely, reeeeeely like to know exactly who (and when) breached that contract.  I know, I know, that'll never happen.  That info will be forever buried and the community forced to eat it all, or at least most of it.  Too bad. That's the (almost) final and in many ways most interesting part of the whole Sewer Saga.

Oh, a reminder to some readers: mind your manners, now.

Meanwhile, Down In The Gulf

More interesting wrinkles coming to light on the gulf oil spill.  One of the more interesting seems to be that if you are spilling X number of barrels, then chemical dispersment is the least harmful way to go. But, if you're spilling Y number of barrels, the least harmful is to leave it alone and get out the booms and start gathering it up -- that dispersment chemicals on Y is waaaaay more damaging. 

In the case of BP, it appears that BP knew they were spilling Y number early on but since they would be fined on the amount of Y and if Y was allowed to remain visible (undispersed) the reality of this disaster would be manifest, so they low-balled the number they gave out to the public/government, used dispersment to hide and make it sort of disappear into an even more lethal, uncontainable, hidden (and unproveable-in-court?) cloud  until it was too late.  

If true, then BP's actions will result in a worse disaster than if they'd come clean in the first place and openly went ahead with best practices right off the bat.  Why they didn't do that is likely because we have set up a system that rewards concealment and punishes honesty.  We'll see the result of that system play out in the Gulf. 

And, if true, maybe we need to think about changing that "system" into one that says, simply, if you lie to us and that lie causes more damage, then we'll take over your company and shut you down, seize all your assets and that's that.  BUT, if you come clean right out of the box, you'll still be responsible for the clean up, but your company won't be seized.  Would that apply sufficient "moral hazard" to companies to do the right -- smart -- thing? 

Yeah, not likely.  Sigh.

150 comments:

Mike said...

What do YOU want Anne...??? Don't accept the settlement...???

Most of the community seems pleased that $1.3 million was reduced from the bankruptcy... Seems like a fairly significant figure... No one else has reduced the cost of the sewer... certainly not the PZLDF...!!!!!

Ron said...

First off, as a life-long Laker fan (during the ups AND downs), lemme say, "Damn, championships are SWEEEEET! Especially, when they come against the Celtics... (long night ; -)

Second off, thanks for the link, Ann. (Friggin' Trib... awful.)

Angry Mike wrote:

"Most of the community seems pleased that $1.3 million was reduced from the bankruptcy"

Ooooo.... lookeeeee Los Osos... little shiny things.

Now, "Send a check to Nash-Karner at 350 Mitchell Drive," like it said in The Bay News the other day.

Sewertoons said...

Ann will try to divert the significance of the settlement by hurrying on to other topics.

But part of one topic she hurries toward is burdened with a problem caused by her sewer sweethearts. I guess she has forgotten that in order to have stopped the project, the Board needed to have gotten State approval; they didn't. Who knows when that will be resolved.

For the present, we can be very grateful for this returning of money to the District, thanks to the persistence of Taxpayers' Watch.

M said...

I refuse to thank the people that got us into this mess in the first place.
Sincerely, M

Alon Perlman said...

The effect of dispersants is to move the oil down through the Water column. At no point does the dispersant oil mix become heavy enough to go down to a depth where deep ocean sediments rest undisturbed and life is sparse. In the shallower areas more bottom dwelling sea life will be killed. The toxin globules will poison the sea life that is not obligated to rise to the surface (Turtles have to breath air but tunas don’t). As the weather patterns shift there will be more dispersal due to this action. Oil will penetrate deeper into the bayous and as the storms mix more material can be lifted up and brought over the life zones of the beaches and inland.
Currently the gulf is hot but there are no hurricanes predicted “Invest 92” “This area of disturbed weather has the potential for tropical development.” Is lurking at the eastern tip of cuba and is the only activity Katrina’s path started from that direction once over the gulf hurricane gather up steam churn the waters and veer to the east for landfall
A la-Nina is probable in west Mexico in July, I’m not sure how those affect the gulf patterns. Currently the close-offshore Louisiana and Texas sea water temps are in the low nineties A spill of this size may affect sea water temps.

The lawsuit ? that silly little thing? We knew this would be where it was going month’s ago.

吳俊祥 said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Churadogs said...

Toonces said,"I guess she has forgotten that in order to have stopped the project, the Board needed to have gotten State approval; they didn't. Who knows when that will be resolved."

That's why I think a breach of contract trial would be nice. Maybe we'd find out the difference between "stand down" and "stopping the project" and "breach" and what the difference is between contract allowed start-up-close-down costs and damages and other such stuff.

Alon: True, true. My understanding from day one was that this was a Board Errors and Ommissions Insurance issue, but some regular commentors on this blog were adamantly positive that the post-recall board would GO TO PRISON over all this! Indeed, the droll rolling down their tongues at that prosepect needed mops to get it up off the floor, which drool spoke clearly to the ugly dark stuff that's boiling up inside some TPWatchie-Dreamerish folks that I had written about previously. Eeeuuu. But the Tribune article made no mention of PRISON! So I guess this was a "silly little thing" Board Errors and Ommissions insurance case like you said.

Richard LeGros said...

Ann,

What would be your opinion if the courts decided that YES, indeed, the LOCSD (not the State) did breach the Contract?

As you already know, the TW lawsuit was a CIVIL lawsuit only (focusing on $ misappropriation).

Criminal charges can only be prosecuted by the State.
The State (in the settlement) has reserved the right to criminally prosecute the defendants. Time will tell if such events are to occur.

As for 'error and omission insurance', it does not apply in this case.

Why?

Simply as misappropriating $1,500,000 in dedicated public money is not an 'error' or 'omission'. The CSD 5 KNOWINGLY AND PURPOSELY SPENT the $1,500,000 to pay general CSD expenses with money that was legally and expressly earmarked to pay for specific public services. The CSD's own official records verify this fact!



Lastly, TW has just given the LOCSD a gift of $1,175,000!

TW secured this largess for Los Osos by suing the CSD5 regarding several compelling legal arguments. As the CSD5 did not come up with a viable legal defense, the insurance company and BW&S prudently paid the settlement in order to limit their financial exposure; especially exposure that would result from a probable trial win by TW.

Mike said...

Hi Richard... You should probably explain why the settlement was not given directly to the LOCSD...

M said...

Ok Richard, how about you get back some of the money you guys blew trying to make Tri-W fly in the face of so much objection. A project that had so many alternatives and yet you guy's led ,nay, forced us down this path.
Mike. I know who you speak for. It certainly isn't the citizenry of the prohibition zone. When you go off as one of the damaged citizens by the CSD5 it makes me want to shout out who you really are and where your vindictiveness comes from. Don't you realize that when you and Richard get on here and try to make yourselves out as champions for Los Osos's cause, you are only attempting to shift blame. Had you had served Los Osos's best interest when we came to the crossroad of what and where this was going to happen, instead of ramrodding what you did, we would more than likely have some system in place now. You can whine all you want. Obstructionist were not able to stop you from ramrodding Tri-W down our throats. At least not until you ruined it.
If either of you guys are ready to commence and finish closure, why don't you just go vanish.
Sincerely, M

The Razor said...

I noticed Ann hasn't deleted my recent comments. Thank you, and I'm glad everything has smoothed out more or less between us.

Everything that Richard LeGros writes is perceived as black and white, but there are many shades of gray that is intentionally omitted from the discussion.

If there were really "several compelling legal arguments," then TW would have put all their chips into a court case without accepting any settlement agreement with the insurance company and BW&S. The only reason the settlement took place is that most of the parties involved wanted to put the past behind them. There was no conviction, no proof of impropriety, and the settlement made sure that liability would not be part of the agreement.

Interestingly, LeGros is opposing his own lawyer, Mrs. Neiswender, by continuously instigating claims of impropriety against the defendants.

Personally, I don't think it's a wise move to continue with the vindictiveness because that just feeds the idea that TW's litigation is motivated by revenge for the recall. If I was in charge of TW's public relations, I would direct TW board members to constructively focus on district solvency -- because shifting blame does absolutely nothing for the taxpayers.

Alon Perlman said...

Ha.

Spectator said...

Richard LeGross is correct in his analysis of the settlement. Best that this happened.

In the meantime BP made many design and drilling errors to save money to extract oil. The news is out. 20 billion will be a drop in the bucket to make the gulf area whole. It would not surprise me if later on they declare bankruptcy. If the oil gets into the gulf stream things will get even more expensive.

As far as the fishermen are concerned, they run a cash business, and how can their previous years income be verified? An excessive claim would be fraud and open them up to charges of tax evasion. This is a real mess.


Seems like a lot of incompetency from our own government. You expect health care management to be better? So far we are slowly finding out this is a can of worms.

Obama promised 12 hundred National Guard troops to Arizona to help seal the border, supposed to be there last week. Another broken promise.

The Razor said...

In reality, though, not a lot of people knew what happened behind closed doors except for the parties that were involved. What I'm seeing is an organization; the top brass of said organization is essentially misrepresenting the results of the settlement. I don't know about the defense's tactics and attempts to shift blame, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of the legal proceedings to date was full of just that on both sides.

Mike, I don't know if you can really say that vindictiveness played absolutely no role. If you look at Richard's comments and the frequency of repetition, it sounds like there's a little bit of vindictiveness -- and believe me, I completely understand why the vindictiveness exists.

The best advice I could give for Taxpayers Watch is to not spend so much time affixing blame on the defendants. Even if you're right, even if everything you said is the honest-to-God truth, you're going to evoke strong feelings from people who think that TW prioritizes blame over simply holding elected officials responsible and appealing to a greater context of government accountability.

You seem to be walking a very thin line, though, Mike, between vindictiveness and fighting for accountability.

Alon Perlman said...

Would that the Real World™ reflect what happens in cyberspace. Amazing how stating the obvious passes for knowledge.
Good comments spectator.
Speaking of mixing the pot-The gulf is a churning Calderón (pun intended) but I guess you have a spectator’s view.

Where are you rel to the spill? ( Never mind-looks like you can fish in the west)
Some of the north coast of the gulf shrimpers have had for many years (as I understand it) been in an economic slump due to the dead zone which is due to nutrient rich pollution feeding into the gulf from the coast and creating blooms and anoxic conditions.
Unlike the Exxon Valdez hitting a fairly pristine ecology situation, this is a bale of straw hoisted on an overloaded camel. So this is a death blow to an economy, may be the (Recent past ) income will not be factored in. Take the money (don’t count it) and run. Since ’05 the gulf has been quiet hurricane wise, 90 degree temperatures in the shore areas.(shallow shelf)
What will happen in a month?
Does an oil slick visible from space alter the surface temperature of the gulf? (Sure does, but in which direction?.) Add to that the liberal use of dispersants. A fraction of the oils are now also lower in the water column.
Part of the gulf stream is split by Florida and recirculates in the gulf, some re-circulates to mix with African circulation and some takes off on the long journey up the western sea board past western Europe and will eventually recirculate downward to deeper polar waters following the colder denser polar melt.
Any hurricane activity will pick and carry sea waters inland. Dispersants (an attempt to hide the size of the spill) will help the toxins move inland. The rest could follow circular patterns for years unless they contact land, get picked up for northern transport at the tip of Florida or contact a seabird’s feather.

Alon Perlman said...

Eastern sea board- gulf stream

Churadogs said...

The Razor sez:"I noticed Ann hasn't deleted my recent comments. Thank you, and I'm glad everything has smoothed out more or less between us."

No. It remains in effect. Two PERSONAL NAMES are never to be mentioned in this space or they'll be deleted. THIS WAS DONE AT YOUR REQUEST. The Razor is a publication, not a person. So long as you are writing as a Publication, go right ahead and comment and folks can comment in reply to this publications statements, as a publication, but use those two names and you're dumped. So, you are all on notice here. So proceed cautiously. Mike has already use one of those names so his comments are gone.And Razor, when commentors start sticking pins in you, you can deal with it or you can request I eliminate all references to The Razor as well, and I will, again, be happy to comply. And, as ever, if any of you get too stupid, you'll be dumped as well.

The Razor said...

Thank you for the clarification, Ann. To be in full compliance with Ann's rules and my request, anything you want to address to me personally can go here.

What Richard LeGros is not saying is that he gave The Razor several legal documents pertaining to the Taxpayers Watch lawsuits in April 2009, so we definitely have information. It's dated information, but relevant enough to use as a reference point. He also provided us with one of the final drafts of the settlement agreement, which we analyzed here.

We will be more than happy to release all the documents LeGros and TW provided for the sake of transparency.

Most of the community of Los Osos are "TW outsiders" because in actuality, not many people know where TW specifically stands on the issues except for lawsuits against the post-recall board. The first time we heard about TW was when they petitioned for the LOCSD to be dissolved in 2006. In 2010, TW claims to present a "gift" to taxpayers via the settlement agreement, but how the awarded damages can be construed as any kind of "gift" is up for interpretation.

Mike said...

Well said Richard... Those guessing games are exactly that... SWAG... It was even admitted that he didn't know what was in the lawsuit and settlement, yet he had to spout off as if he were some legal expert... when in reality, he remains uneducated, inexperienced and without a job...

That form of unfounded and untrue GOSSIP is exactly the logic that has delayed the completion of the sewer in Los Osos...

Now that the settlement is going to be given to the community by way of a lowered bankruptcy bill, it will be interesting to what the State does with their case... That could really stir the emotions of the gossip wag...

Ron said...

Ann wrote:

"And, as ever, if any of you get too stupid, you'll be dumped as well."

Speaking of which... wanna see something hilarious?

Click here, and read the comments:

"Metatron's comment is abusive and has been removed."

"sanddollar's comment is abusive and has been removed."

"Alon_Perlman's comment is abusive and has been removed."

"RazorOnline's comment is abusive and has been removed."

"LO_TaxPayer's comment is abusive and has been removed.
"

And that's just on the first page!

Ah, Los Osos, you make me laugh, in ways I wouldn't have imagined. Gawd, I love ya.

Hey, Richdora... just curious: What's Taxpayers Watch going to do now that you have nothing left to sue, dissolve, bankrupt, or "fine out of existence?"

You guys must be sufferin' from a little empty feeling, yes?

Maybe if you sent a "check to Nash-Karner at 350 Mitchell Drive," it'd cheer ya up.

Don't forget to "Celebrate Los Osos!" y'all.

Mike said...

Hey ronnie... are YOU backing Ann's newest lawsuit...??? Ok, it's not out quite yet, but we can pretty much count on gail and ann to sue someone over something not to their personal liking when the County puts their completed PLAN on the table...

Only this time, the LOCSD won't be able to fund that legal crusade, so maybe YOU should start a campaign fund... go ahead ronnie, take the lead and put your money where your mouth is...

...and afterall, Taxpayers Watch did just that, many, many community members put up the funds and they saw the lawsuit through... and returned $1.3M to the community... How much has ANY OTHER lawsuit returned to the community...??? How many times was the Pre-recall Board sued and how many times did they lose...??? ...and how much did they have to return to the community...???? ...hmmm...???? that should make you think...but I doubt a drunk would ever understand...!!!!

franc4 said...

Hi all.....miss me much? Feeling the need of poetic enlightenment, thought I would take a peek at Anns' great blog and lo and behold, the same old crap by the same old folks...Mike, Richy and the ever present, empty headed parrot of Richard with no thoughts of her own.....(looney)'toons...accompanied by the "not making much sense" ramblings of the pseudo intellectual Alon, to which most folks think......Huh??????
Let's not forget Richards number one cheer leader and #1 bonehead, Mikey, who still has dreams of orange suits..Problem being, he visualizes them on the wrong folks.
What further amazes me that Richard won't go away since he is arguing for a cause that he, Gordy and Stash were/are totally responsible for. What gaul and down right arrogance with total absence of moral responsibility for the actions of the above.
Razor sez:
"and the frequency of repetition, it sounds like there's a little bit of vindictiveness"
gee.......ya' think?
Well, keep on keepin' on, y'all

Sewertoons said...

franc4, you seem to forget that a 20 votes less than 50% of the town stopped the project. You have overestimated your side's popularity.

And no, until you popped up again now, I didn't miss you as I had forgotten about you.

M said...

Uh Toon's, where exactly in his post did franc4 reference anything about his side's popularity? 20 votes less than 50% got the job done. What exactly is your point?
Sincerely, M

M said...

Mike. Which side are you representing in the bankruptcy? Is Taxpayers Watch looking out for us there? Is Taxpayers Watch keeping close tabs on the County and how they have squandered our money so far? If ever we needed a group like you looking out for this communitys best interest it is now. What do ya say?
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

Good Evening M... I'm not taking sides in the bankruptcy, that's between the Court and the creditors...

I'm sure you are aware that the bankruptcy was solely the CSD Directors's decision... Regardless of the gossip, Taxpayers Watch didn't cause the decision or have any input one way or the other...

Unfortunately, you and I and most of our neighbors will be paying for the outcome from the Federal Court... I do know that should the CSD not come up with a realistic plan to come out of the bankruptcy, the Court could toss the whole bankruptcy out and the creditors would be free to pursue a direct course to sue the CSD... I'm not going to pretend to know the legalities, but it would seem a more prudent course to finally present a real plan instead of letting the lawyers continuedrag this out and to suck any more funds out of the very meager treasury... Those lawyers are bleeding this CSD into a slow death...

Hope you had a great Father's Day...

Sewertoons said...

M, it may have gotten THAT job done of changing the location, but it FAILED MISERABLY in keeping the cost down and in keeping any sort of control over the project locally - and then there is that bankruptcy. Measure B was deemed ILLEGAL more than once - PLUS it is no impediment to the County doing anything. This long delay in getting a plant on-line has had a detrimental effect on the water supply. Are you satisfied with the "work" of the Lisa Board?

Alon Perlman said...

To "B" or not to "B"?
20 votes OVER. Give Judy R. her due. The percentages don't play.
Is this a case of a missing apostrophe?
Legality and consequence non-withstanding.

4F I appreciate the effort.
I know you unnerstan every word.
I see through the fog and haze.
Remember; I know you know I know.
You used to be somebody. You let it slip away.
Mimicking a wannabe won’t un-Has-been you.
And no, you weren’t missed. Just faded.
Speaking of faded from relevance.

Richard; Color between the lines!
For “Historical-reference” only
RL Sed (on a potentially deleted message to a decidedly unreal entity who I diagnosed long ago as not a person)-
RL-"...Meanwhile, to interject a little REALITY into this blog, why not think and comment about the real topics before the LOCSD today:
1.THE BANKRUPTCY:
A. Arbitration begins July 17....with the LOCSD producing a Bankruptcy Plan on September 1, 2010.
The creditors have final say on the Plan; and may reject it for any reason. The Court does not have the power to force the creditors to accept a plan not of their liking.
B. THE COUNTY WWPT:SAP" (RL)


Ron; The humor is there on the trib-blog-bite.
But try this on for size- It’s only gonna cost one penny over Fourteen dollahs n nahnty nahn caints.
No foolies; "Fifteen",fouhr lines up from the bottom.



Looks like the raist is comin ouer youse pokit. Better hock that thare bah-sikkle.

Checker-out at yer Cornah lickah store, drug store or gas stayshin. New Times are a-comin.
Cause if it aint prinned on daid tree pulp its jis weyb-fiction;

P.S.
Chuck’s comments got reducted ad abserdium. He was surprised to read what was an off the cuff remark, as the meat of an interview.

Churadogs said...

Razor Sez:"Thank you for the clarification, Ann. To be in full compliance with Ann's rules and my request, anything you want to address to me personally can go here."

Incorrect. Use those two forbidden NAMES and you will be dumped. Which Mike and Richard found out. If commentors wish to comment on what The Razor, as a publication has to say, fine. But not any reference to those two forbidden NAMES -- at the "names" own request, I must remind everyone. Plus, if any of you, including the publication known as The Razor start getting stupid, you'll be dumped.

franc4 said...

Alas.....there stands Ron, the one and only person in San Lo county who REALLY cares, seeks answers and justice from a corrupt bunch of politicians,(who lack any moral values with greed and power their only goal), armed with facts, documents and figures (and unaswered questions). So how do Richy, Mike and (looney)'toons respond?......by insults and rudeness, offering nothing (facts, figures or documents)to prove him wrong about anything, let alone offer anything to back their OPINIONS....because they have nothing but contempt for anyone who speaks TRUTH. In Richys' case, in his own mind, he is the "second coming" while the other two follow him blindly because they lack any form of a mind or thought of their own. Fortunately, but a handful of folks read this crap or believe anything these 3 people say.
God bless Ron and Sewerwatch (The voice of truth and justice)

TheOpenEye said...

Congrats to Ann for not providing a safe haven for hate, although some will continue to cross that border, their obsession having consumed them far beyond the point of no return.

Ironic that those "dumped" for wallowing in the dark corners of the dumpster are those who have engaged in this favorite community sport the longest and hardest -- and who most frequently promote their gifts and virtues to the community ... over their failures.

Those who feel robbed of their inalienable right to lie and slander should consider replacing the object(s) of their hatred with a mirror. It may not be as much fun, but it will bring you closer to the truth.

FOGSWAMP said...

It's an ugly picture to be sure, but it doesn't stop there.

No, not only will hundreds of good folk be driven from their homes, but the huge multi-million dollar vacuum from the community will undoubtedly be the death blow to our small mom-and-pop establishments.

More toilet talk probably won't change things at this point in time.

Mike said...

...let's make it "thousands" will be driven from their homes...

I love all the guess work and "facts"...

...and of course the mirror joke... hahahaha... apparently y'all forgot the way the pre-recall Directors were treated by those now happy that there is no WWTF in Los Osos and oh, btw, our sewer bills are expected to be around $200 to $250 per month...

yup, y'all have certainly "won"... now don't let the door bruise your butt on the way out of town...!!! Thanks CSD5
and your dwindling band of sewer experts....

M said...

Mike. It is not your sewer bill. You don't live here. Your beloved pre-recall directors were the most disrespectful group i've seen. One even shouted "I have f******* b****!" I seem to remember their sewer bill to be over $200 a month wasn't it?
When just one of you ever hints at maybe you shouldn't have gone down the path to Tri-W maybe I would look at you all differently. Nah. Probably not.
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

M... you really have me confused with someone else, but apparently you want to believe what you already have in your mind....

I do have to say that the pre-recall Directors took one hell of a lot more abuse than they ever gave out...!!!!!!! and that is the Fact..!!!! How would you have like to have sat there night after night in front of those vocal and extremely nasty extremists....????? Would you like to have been threatened...over what, a G-D sewer....!!!!!!!! I have personally been subjected to that ass, Joey and I can tell you, Richard, Stan, Gordon did not come close to the nastiness heaped on them....!!!!

...and whether you like it or not, THEY did get this community through every legal hoop and DID obtain every legal permit required... and they never lost a lawsuit...!!!!!! Can the post-recall directors match that...??? Where was even any realistic PLAN.... Hell M, those 5 stole from our small CSD tax base to pay their personal attorneys...!!!! ...and they just had to settle to return $1.3M to the community for the misappropriation of out tax dollars...!!!!

I'm not angry, mad or even seeking to see the CSD5 thrown in jail, but I wouldn't stand in the way if the State were to try them in a criminal court... I do have to walk away when I see a certain CalTrans worker or a developer in Von's or Miner's, but I am pleased with the knowledge that a sewer will be built and someday our drinking water will once more be cleansed of all the septic leach... I just hope we can afford to live here after all the damage done by the CSD5 is tallied...

Sewertoons said...

M, you never answered me. Are you satisfied with the "work" of the Lisa Board?

Tell me that you will pay less with the County's sewer than Tri-W. Tell me that the wait has been good for the environment. Has changing the location meant that much to you?

GetRealOsos said...

Mike,

You forget the fact that the recalled board decided to put a sewer plant in the middle of town that over half the town didn't want.

And THEY didn't have to pick the most expensive sewer system either!! (That only shows the plan to rid the town of the seniors and low to mid income homeowners.)

Rob Miller, our very own engineer, said there were many different systems that could have been selected - not just MWH gravity or Step and that the site where the sewer will be was the best spot for it then - the middle of town site was NEVER the best site.

Perk obviously has a plant that works on an acre. Collection could have been vacuum. Why didn't the recalled CSD board select something affordable? ... I think we all know the answer to that one!

Nope, it was YOUR board that decided to start a very bad project before the recall election, destroy ESHA, not have a legally required 218 vote, and picked the most expensive sewer they could.

How can you dare blame problems and/or cost on ANYONE else?!!!!

Nutty you!!!

GetRealOsos said...

Lynette,

Your thought process is very nutty too!

Why don't you explain to me how the horse farms outside the PZ aren't polluting...or why the State Water Board says NOW that nitrates are from fertilizer?

Nutty...

Mike said...

You're the expert GRO...

...so why aren't you leading the County's efforts... I'm sure they are just waiting for your directions... Jump right in there and straighten this whole mess out, afterall, you have all the solutions...

Sewertoons said...

GRO - When did the town move away from the concept of sewage in the MIDDLE OF TOWN - which was THE REASON to form the CSD in the first place in 1998? Do you think the "no-sewer" ringleaders played a part in changing that idea?

How many horses are out there anyway - 10,000? 15,000?

PERC - more salesmen!! PERC is MBR, just like the plant at Tri-W. Wasn't that guy who was pitching in Morro Bay at the CCC hearing? I didn't hear any prices though! But we know, it has to be "cheaper" - right?

GRO - maybe you know this answer - when the Lisa Board had the chance to run the 218 vote - why didn't they?

You still haven't "gotten" that the middle of town was the BEST place to limit growth.

You OK to have that SHARED valve pit on YOUR property GRO? So when rubber (gloves, etc.) socks and who knows what else is accidently flushed, YOUR property gets the visit from the repair guys? Think it is a property value enhancement? Vacuum is only cheaper if you cluster several homes and someone agrees to the easement on THEIR property. Show me one town that is a vacuum retrofit of this size.

In any case, none of this matters. We are getting a VERY EXPENSIVE sewer out of town.

M said...

Ok Mike. How's this.
A.G.
Cal Poly
Diablo
Lincoln
Your name
Sincerely, M

M said...

Sewertoons, the sewer was VERY EXPENSIVE in town. At the worst possible spot.
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

Good Morning M.... You're a bit off base... OK in the middle, but I don't understand AG or Lincoln... I did run track against Arroyo Grande, even did a little work down there... never been to Nebraska though... but yup, I have a BS from Cal Poly and an MS from San Jose State... even worked on the Diablo Canyon Nuclear project along with some 2000 other men and women... Hope that filled in a few of the blanks... but... you left out the 12 marriages, 5 dogs, quite a few deer I tagged, no bears yet, military and oh, yes the sailboat and auto racing I've done... I have slowed down a bit and only have a couple kayaks these days... still do the nature photography though... Oh well, I still work, so I better get back to my clients needs... Have a great day... Mike ( if indeed that is my name)

Spectator said...

I believe the sewer bill was $200 or slightly more per month, but there was no property tax. From the last I heard, we are going to have property taxes around $200 a month, sewer usage bills, and then there will be the bankruptcy bill probably on top of that. It will be real nice if we get help from the unspent billions in the federal economic recovery act. We need to hold Capps, Pelosi, Boxer, and Weinstein to the fire for this, although Boxer probably will not be there after January, and if enough Tea Party people get out, Capps will probably be gone. Please feel free to correct my figures, I may be wrong. I don't think we will get a dime from the state. The state is broke.

Spectator said...

In retrospect from the future, the ridiculous squabble we have had, the vilification of directors and individuals, just might have been the best thing that could have happened to us, providing we get the federal funds as a grant to build this sewer system. But don't hold your breath, the U.S. is upside down with a currently unsustainable debt, and that cannot be denied except by a liar or ignoramus. Some people are going to have to make plans to move. They better do it soon before the 30% tax on moving money from the US goes into effect. There is really no place in the US that is really affordable to someone strictly on working man's social security if they were not a union member, or public employee.

Sewertoons said...

M, there is no inexpensive sewer. The sewer back in the 80's was deemed too expensive when it was under $40. Current estimates run $250/mo. The old one was, as Spectator says, around $200/mo.

You have your sewer out of town now. Are you satisfied with the "work" of the Lisa Board? Has this been worth it to you?

M said...

So Mike. Coincidence?
"I was born and raised in San Luis Obispo, graduated from Cal Poly and while an engineer working on construction of the Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant, lived in Los Osos. My....."
Also, previously you mentioned something about a brother, or father or somebody in your family had served in the military with the tone being that you had not. Curious.
Sincerely, M

M said...

Sewertoons. Since you insist, of course I don't think it was worth it. I also don't think it was worth it in 1998. The then sewer was almost ready to go at a site most could live with and the powers that be inexplicably went against all logic and afforded the Solutions group the opportunity to trash that project and implement their own the cost be damned. I don't believe I have ever praised the Lisa board as you call it, but I am certainly not going to badmouth them either. It was important stopping Tri-W from becoming a burden we'd have to live with. What about all the people that live right across the street from there?
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

Well M, I don't know what to tell you... My father and I served in different branches of the Military... I generally prefer to not talk about what I saw and did except with a couple close buddies... I still proudly fly our American flag...

..but enough guessing, there has been way too much and there are still a few who pretend to know all things sewerage and still think they have their own special solution... It's time the County put a program together and build it... I do disagree that some "chinese menu" should be put out for the public to chose from... M, this community is not full of the experts some think they are... There are a few wantabe's out there, but they never understood how major engineered project are planned, designed and built...
This sewer is not a small project...!!!!

In hind sight, I'm sure the pre-recall Directors would just as soon seen the County build the damn thing 30 years ago... but that didn't happen, so some very good folks took up the challege and did very well in navigating legal hoops... Now, we're all going to pay for the folly of stopping that with no realistic Plan other than Move the Sewer... Well they may have gotten their wish, but they have cost all of us much more that was necessary...

Sewertoons said...

Thank you M. I very much appreciate your detailed and honest answer. I know I was being a pain in asking so insistently, but I believe that you have provided some valuable information for those who might attempt to stop the current sewer. Namely, don't.

You seem to be saying, we stopped it in town, but history has proven that to go beyond that win it would result in more cost. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But that is where I am coming from, let's not incur MORE COST - which LAWSUITS now would incur. I believe people will listen to you M.

As to those living across the street from Tri-W, I guess I'd have to ask each property owner, "Did you vote for a Solutions Group pond to replace the County's old project by the middle school," to really get an answer to that question. A pond has a far greater chance of smell than the "vacuumed-up bad air system" of the Tri-W plan. If they were OK with a pond, they should be OK with Tri-W. I don't live there and I suspect you don't either M. I'd also want to poll the people in Montecito and Scott's Valley and other places that back houses up to sewer plants. If they want to protest because Tri-W cost more than the Solutions Group plan, well, that's different. But use that argument then, not the smell, if you see what I mean.

Again, thanks.

M said...

I don't remember mentioning anything about smell. Hard to imagine any property owner agreeing to put a sewer plant across the street from themselves. just like it is hard to imagine somebody moving to this town in the midst of a sewer war, guaranteed $200+ sewer bill, recall looming, ten years of nightmare road construction, roads to return to "as is" conditions. It is not hard to conceive of somebody who has lived here a length of time to fight against something that could cost them out of their homes. Mike complains about alleged "sewer experts. What qualifications did the pre-recall board have that made them sewer experts? No, they paid MWH to design and price the most expensive sewer possible. Disgusting.
Mike, I am through arguing with you. I will simply try to refute anything you say that implies you will have to share the burden of this project. I know who you are. There are just too many similarities to what I stumbled across that points to you. And the last name, if that ever comes out it will blow people away. People that have listened to your rantings here anyway.
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

...bye M, you are way way off base, stuck with your guesses and faith in the few who support some alternative form of waste treatment... You have no idea what the past Directors went through in the selection of design and designer... You are only guessing and have locked your mind against anything that the past CSD folks put together... Those past Directors are not the monsters some of you have painted... but they did create and obtained every legal permit ever required... they successfully defended against 11 lawsuits and did not have to file for bankruptcy...

Have a great day... and keep guessing, you really are incorrect in many of your conceptions...

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez:" "Did you vote for a Solutions Group pond to replace the County's old project by the middle school," to really get an answer to that question"

to get a fair answer to that you really must add . . . "FOR $35 A MONTH insead of the county's proposed $50-80 a month?" There's your answer. Another question, also never asked, 'do you want a guestimated $200 a month in-town sewer plant or a guestimated $205-210 sewer plant out of town?"

FOGSWAMP said...

Toons - - - You ask "are you satisfied with the "work" of the Lisa board" and "tell me that you will pay less with the County's sewer than the Tri-W".

As a long time business owner in the village, I and some other business owners never thought the Tri-W location, nor the 1st wrongheaded choice of location at the Sea Pines golf course , was very
Business friendly or a wise long term decision.

Aside from the fact no treatment plant builder on the face of the planet will promise it will not smell occasionally, even with scrubbers, the footprint was too small to handle the vacant lots or even the entire PZ zone.

Vacant lot owners have waited over 30 years to build their dream homes. The County plan has addressed that issue somewhat should the 218 "yes" vote fly, Tri-W did not.

Thank you Lisa board.

I don't know where you come up with the $250.00 a month figure. The "County Cost Estimates and Efforts to Mitigate Affordability" clearly show $200.00 per month should the 218 vote pass, less #37.00 per month should the USDA fund happen.

Also, should the option for spreading some of the Project costs community-wide which is provided under Prop.218 through the approval of a "special tax", the homeowner would pay even less.

So, all in all the County Plan is better, cheaper and the only viable option we have going at this point in time eh?

Sewertoons said...

FOGSWAMP,

You are right about the only viable option being the County plan right now - and yes - it might be $200 or less a month depending on what happens with the financing and the next 218 for vacant lot owners--AND LAWSUITS.

If you have ANY influence with those threatening lawsuits to the County project right now, this would be the time to exert it. We do not need delays, as we see what has happened with that in the past.

Tri-W WAS designed to handle buildout AND the entire PZ! This is the first time I have read on any blog that it was not! Where did your information come from on that?

I wouldn't pin my hopes on a "special tax." You have seen how voting money for a skate park, a pool, to continue lighting Cabrillo has gone.

FOGSWAMP, were you OK with a pond in the middle of town?

M said...

All righty then. Talley Ho Mike!!!!
Sincerely, M

M said...

I don't know. Somehow a "pond" has a tranquill ring to it. Especially @ $38 a month. Wheras "sewer plant" @ $200+ a month just doesn't resonate.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

So Ann, I am getting from your comment that it really was all about the money - $35 vs. $50-$80 a month? That is why people were OK with sewage in the "center of town" -- it was cheaper?

Maybe you can clarify some history here - people were OK with this pond (80% voted yes to form the CSD and do a pond) - but there were NO (or few?) PROTESTS on smells and spills - which seem a LOT more likely with a pond than the Tri-W project?

Sewertoons said...

I might state here that even Tri-W would not have been $200/mo. if delays and threats hadn't caused the price to rise… Which is why is SO IMPORTANT to not let LAWSUITS delay the project before us now.

Mike said...

Hi 'toons... Roll this thought around... If enough lawsuits are filed and enough delay occurs and even larger costs are attached to the final costing, would that accomplish "The PLAN"....?????

It really has never mattered where the wwtf would be located... It's always been about creating such staggering costs that the Feds would have to come in a build the sewer for free... or just bless the magic sands and exempt LO from any sewer requirements...

It's almost time for a martini... actually, I prefer a Gibson... makes this whole sewer seem a lot more sensible to me...!!!

Sewertoons said...

Hi Mike!
Yes, I do believe there abounds the "magic thinking" of getting it done for free (hah!) -- but before that could happen (as if!), I think that there would be a lot of grief coming our way from the Water Board - CDO's for all --or however it could be done WITHOUT individual hearings -- I think that they saw what a headache THAT could be. Beyond that, yes, there still persists the "magic thinking" of NO SEWER. It's amazing what the human mind is capable of! Martini - Gibson - Vodka Gimlet --hey, Brandy Alexander!! They ALL sound excellent right now!

FOGSWAMP said...

Toons ..... I did not vote to claw the project away from the County and haven't heard of any lawsuits in the making.

I'll have a dirty Grey Goose vodka martini, straight up with two olives, shaken or stirred doesn't matter to me.

Sewertoons said...

Hi Fogswamp, CHEERS!! (I'm sending a CHEERS to you too Mike!)

Dirty martinis are yummy!

Now have you heard of a Black Martini? I had one once or twice at the Citrus City Grill in the City of Orange - until they ran out of black vodka and couldn't get any more! It was a strange, inky drink that tasted much like a regular gin or vodka martini! The visuals were superb however! Rather perfect for sewer talk I think!

I didn't live here when the site selection went on. I don't know how I would have voted as I have heard arguments on both sides only framed by hindsight.

Sewertoons said...

Dinner break. I'm back. Lawsuits. Steve Paige threatened one at the CCC. Then there is always Al - he's usually good for at least one. Guess we'll have to wait and see. I so hope no one will do that to the community.

Mike said...

Just came in... been a long week, have tomorrow off, so the vodka will come down from the cabinet... I'm tired... Cheers...!!!

FOGSWAMP said...

Toons ..... Black Martini eh, sounds adventurous.

Nostrovia.

The Razor said...

Replying to news about Gibson using the chairman's prerogative to limit public comment in Los Osos: "Let's celebrate with a martini. We are going to get a SEWER, and the [frequent public comment speakers] will have to move. Good riddance."
- sewerlass (Lynette Tornatzky on SanLuisObispo.com), April 2009

"I don't care if [Prohibition Zone] residents have to move [...] And if they do, I'll drink to that."
Lynette Tornatzky, October 2008

"Those obstructionists will keep coming with their LAWSUITS, which will DELAY the project. We need to get rid of them. The sewer will do the trick."
sewercrazed (SanLuisObispo.com), August 2006

Sewertoons said...

Skål and Egészségedre (and because I ate Thai food for dinner, ดื่ม) to you FOGSWAMP!

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez:"So Ann, I am getting from your comment that it really was all about the money - $35 vs. $50-$80 a month? That is why people were OK with sewage in the "center of town" -- it was cheaper?

Maybe you can clarify some history here - people were OK with this pond (80% voted yes to form the CSD and do a pond) - but there were NO (or few?) PROTESTS on smells and spills - which seem a LOT more likely with a pond than the Tri-W project?"

The Ponds of Avalon, as I called them, (and I did love my Ponds of Avalon, lot of great ideas in that sort of system on the whole) was presented as a "green" innovative AWIPS ponding system, used step technology, had a "green" footprint, the ponds didn't require sludge removal (except every 20 years or so, and the original CSD Board assured it didn't smell (they visited a similar system up north.)and etc. But the real selling point was price. Why pay $100 when you can get a new, green, enviro friendly cutting edge plan for $35, guaranteed! Yes. Price. It was also tied with the formation of the CSD, let's get home rule, we'll be forward looking, not stuck with 20th century technology in a 21st century world and it's still $35 vs. $100.

As for the idea of getting the state/feds to pay for the entire project, that was reality back in the early 1980s when such things were done. Tht's how you did them: declare an "emergency," get federal funding, build project. So we had a finding of the "emergency" of Nitrates, were heading into getting federal funding, voters understood that sewering Los Osos was completely tied to growth and fast build out and voted no. Reagan got elected, federal funding dried up (Privitization, rememer? Want a sewer, build it yourself.) The rest is history.

Looking back, that "no" vote was, in an odd way, a good thing because at that time there were no decent water studies and fast build out would have meant imported water, so the costs would have gone up anyway.

When the history of the Hideous Los Osos Sewer Project is written it will show a couple of things: It was never rocket science but it DID require honesty with the public,no hidden agendas or market-based manipulation, spin and lies, and an honest feedback loop to and from the community that allowed for real choices, not coerced, manipulated, spun ones. It also required that the public stay engaged and pay attention and actively make key decisions at critical points. It also required a SANE Regional Water Board, not the incompetent Mad Hatters we ended up with. Unfortunately over the years, that failed to happen often enough so that the rest is sad history.

Hmmmm, all these martinis, eh? Maybe that explains some of the bat-shit crazy, fence fighting stupidities that go on here between some of you folks?

FOGSWAMP said...

Ann ...... I agree and let's hope the next book writer doesn't rent a room from Pandora when in town.

It's sad that Herr Briggs is stuck in antiquity.

I think the Pollutions Group knew and were told that he wouldn't let it fly (ponding) well before the election, yet they continued to hijack the plane and take it off the ground without a flight plan which ultimately led to the crash and burn by the stealthy incompetent pilots. (just a pilots' view)

Good old Toby (buffalo) Sacker had a great cartoon depicting two stone age men standing on a territorial border, one pulling a stone-wheeled cart and the other, with "RB" branded into his buckskin, holding his hand in the air yelling "Halt, no new technology allowed in this territory without a six year track record".

I thought that said it all in a thousand words about the water board and the proximate cause of the plane crash.

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

Isn't it so nice and clear that Ann has not been part of the fence fighting... guess she forgets her signing on a lawsuit paid for by the LOCSD ...must be the bat-shit in her drinking water that keeps her mind so clear...

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

...you are so right... They all have a better Plan...

...just hope my oft put off retirement will allow me to pay the coming sewer bill costs created by all those who have a better Plan... oh wait!, they will find away to delay any sewer, anywhere... I won't ever have to pay then will I...?????

Have a great day Richard... I'm going to head to Lopez to kayak and forget the sewer that will never happen...

FOGSWAMP said...

I think the cost of the project at this point in time should be spread on a community-wide basis. If the premise of the prohibition is to protect the groundwater, it's a given that the community as a whole will undoubtedly benefit.

The sneaky salamander PZ silliness by the Water Board no longer makes any common sense in light of the rapid seawater intrusion happening today.

This is an issue that our supervisor needs to address rather than sit on the fence and wait for another law suit to address the legality of the outdated PZ gerrymandering lines.

Toons ... your right, I doubt that a 218 vote for a "special tax" on the folk outside the PZ will fly.
However, surely there is a way to do gerrymander a way around the issue.

Richard LeGros said...

Fogswamp,

Your opinions are not worth one sou with the 'powers that be'....so just sit back, accept REALITY, cease pointless opining over events beyond your control, and plan to pay.

M said...

So Richard, are You saying you were wrong? "blaming others will give them 'satisfaction' as they pay +-$300/month for the privilege of 'being right'." Once again, why do you feel the need to constantly remind us of the dire staights we are in while you sit above it all?
Yea, right Mike

Sewertoons said...

FOGSWAMP,

My question, well one of them, is, who dirtied the water? While I agree, the PZ line is not perfect, septic tanks, on an acre or so, if properly maintained, DO work. Cabrillo black water does not return to the aquifer. If you lived outside the PZ, would you want to pay to clean up water that you did not dirty?

Don't worry, we all will be paying for higher water bills as this plays out to spread this out to everyone. The upper aquifer water will eventually need to be used and we who get water from a purveyor will pay to clean that up. News wells will need to be paid for too.

Sewertoons said...

Thank you Ann for the history.

Sewer skittish in the 80's. Hmmmm. It looks from an outsider's perspective that no one wanted any new neighbors. They liked the town as it was. Good for me (as I now get to live here in a house built in the 80's), but bad for their idea was the lack of any further work on how to make that happen permanently. Like establishing a trust and buying up property not to be sold or something like that.

Let me get this straight. You were told the ponds didn't smell and you believed it. You were told Tri-W didn't smell and you didn't believe it. So if it is the right price, you go with the sales talk?

I'm a city girl (OK, old lady). I don't get the pond thing as being 21st century. I see MBR as 21st century. In fact Mr. Pond himself, Al B. is touting PERC's MBR technology over in Morro Bay! Someone please explain that! (He is getting paid to shill this stuff, right? Otherwise --??????)

Again PERC's MBR - is now heavily being sold as "less expensive." So, as we have seen with Orenco and Ripley - if they yammer on in their sales mode of saying "better, cheaper, faster" - you are supposed to buy into it. And if nothing is being "sold" - like MWH is NOT hitting us up with sales talk, we are then supposed to be suspicious, if not outright hostile!

FOGSWAMP said...

Toons .... I think runoff from your horses dirtied the water. Just kidding, I love horses and support a few of the hay burners myself.

With respect to nitrates, the primary MCL is 45, our average level 22-43. According to Garden Sate Water Co there is No MCL violation. They state that water delivered to customers in the Los Osos system is groundwater from the Los Osos groundwater Basin.

The groundwater basin is a collection of local drainage basins, streams and creeks and natural percolation from rain, agriculture (horse & cow pee) and domestic use.

So you and Richard should stop spinning and reach in your pockets and pay a little.

Sewertoons said...

FOGSWAMP, I live in the PZ and I expect to pay a lot!

The question is: Where does upper aquifer water permeate into the lower aquifer water and does surface water get into the lower aquifer bypassing the upper aquifer. Some reading of the ISJ reports is useful to answer those questions.

I WISH I still had a horse, but that ended when I was 22 and that was DECADES ago and in a different community altogether! Lucky you! There is nothing like a nuzzle from a velvet nose with whiskers and the resonant sound of carrots crunching between those gigantic molars!

Sewertoons said...

The LOCSD agenda was published today - so if anyone would like to update their knowledge on saltwater intrusion, show up at the meeting at SBCC on July 1, 7:00 p.m. or tune in on TV. Rob Miller and Spencer Harris are discussing this.

Alon Perlman said...

Fogswamp:
The groundwater (upper basin) has pharmaceuticals in it. That is what "Domestic use" means. Not a lot. And Nitrates; Close to the NON-allowable limit.
The Drainage basins supplying those wells have Septic tank effluent in them (a very small fraction is from outside of PZ, not "none" toons). Some people grab a number (45 MCL) or a substance (MTBE?) and run with it. Others repeat. It doesn’t change anything.

The water companies who can and did invest in reverse osmosis apparatus
can remove some nitrates. Not all pharmaceuticals.
Once a regulated purveyor finds exceedance of a regulated substance
they have to blend down to acceptable levels or shut down.
If one water source has high nitrates (not necessarily over limit) and one has high salt (another regulated substance)-it limits the blending, makes it complicated, costly.

What's to learn? The primary production well was not moved. '07 would had been a good time to start.
There is no NEWLY DISCOVERED salt water intrusion into the basin.

The acceleration WAS obvious in 2005 data. When you have an increase in the rate the saltwater goes in, and there is a short distance to the well’s draw, the intrusion narrows and moves faster.
Toons -as i understand Cabrillo black water does head west. but unless here is a pipe outfalling directly to the ocean, I'd not say "none" a far a groundwater. There is other "Out of PZ contribution", as stormwater and as less as subsurface seepage, not significant, but not discountable scientificaly (It has been made irrelevent by the combination with the regulatory decisions). The primary source is pz leach pits/fields and irrigation. This is where we are now.

Sewertoons said...

Thanks Alon for clarification. I was being too general.

Bottom line, we won't have the money to do much of anything water-wise without the sewer, the ending of the bankruptcy and the settling of the remaining court cases as far as CSD water goes. Right now, the CSD on its own can budget only around $30,000 to spend per year in water conservation efforts. Golden State, while not poor, is slow to move and unwieldy in its decision making due to PUC regulations. S & T is too minor to make much of a dent one way or another. Yet the future of our water lies with the ISJ and getting the sewer on-line!

Two things appear imperative then. Support for getting the sewer going as fast as possible and do your own individual best to conserve water!

FOGSWAMP said...

Alon .... .. Thanks for clarifications.

When I mentioned MCL levels, I was referring to Primary Maximum Containment Levels referred to in the flyer from Golden State Water Co. This is referred to as the highest level of containment that is allowed in drinking water, set as close to the public health goals as is economically and technologically feasible.

So if the PMCVL level is 45 and the Average Level in 2009 was 24, how could it be "close to the allowable limit".

We are probably not talking about the same thing, or things have changed since 2009 eh?

FOGSWAMP said...

Richard ....... You blurted out that I should "cease pointless oping over events beyond your control".

Well, I'm happy that it's "beyond your control".

The option of spreading some of the costs up in your neighborhood (community-wide) is an issue of fairness and equity that the project team plans to take to the Board of Supervisors in the future and they welcome community input.

Mike said...

..."The Project Team"...???

...sounds like just another group of the sewer clown dreamers... Wonder if they have a pro bono attorney all lined up...

But I'd sure like to encourage them to delay any sewer, anywhere... I only need about 30 more years before I won't have to pay any stinkin' sewer bill...

FOGSWAMP said...

Mike .... For your enlightenment (if that's possible) the following are, as you phrase it "just another group of sewer clown dreamers".

The Los Osos Wastewater Project Team consists of;

Bruce Gibson - County supervisor
Paavo Ogren - Director of Public Works
John Waddell - Project engineer
Mark Hutchinson - Enviromental Coordinator
John Diodati - Grants Coordinator

Mike said...

Oh No... I misread your post...

Darn, I was really hopeing to hear that you business owners had banded together to fight those incompetent county planning folks that Ann keeps telling us about... but now I find you are actually relying on them... Oh Horrors...!!!

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez:"I'm a city girl (OK, old lady). I don't get the pond thing as being 21st century. I see MBR as 21st century."

actually, an AWIPS-ie type ponding system IS 21st century in having a low carbon footprint vis a vis energy needed to run the thing & low sludge disposal & etc.

Toonces also sez:"Sewer skittish in the 80's. Hmmmm. It looks from an outsider's perspective that no one wanted any new neighbors. They liked the town as it was. Good for me (as I now get to live here in a house built in the 80's), but bad for their idea was the lack of any further work on how to make that happen permanently. Like establishing a trust and buying up property not to be sold or something like that."

That's always the problem with water/development/growth etc. If it's offered as an either/or (vote for a sewer and get total build out (that may not be sustainable) which then has to be mitigated by importing water OR vote for a moritorium on a town which causes it to die a slow death. Somewhere is a middle ground that needs to be voted on and decided by the community itself. What we saw here was a yo-yo effect based on bad info (at the time (80's) very primitive or non-existent ground water studies, unclear connections (if any) between aquifers, bad lines on a map vs. comprehensive basin planning, hidden agendas, outright lies, prehistoric Water Law, etc. all lurching into crazyville and a trainwreck.)

Right now it remains to be seen whether we'll inadvertently end up in a weird middle place: the Pz sewered and so allowed to grow X amount while outside the PZ is stuck in a moritorium because (a) an assessment vote for outside the PZ fails and/or it turns out there is no more water. Then the choice will move to . . . an assessment vote for imported water for everyne outside the PZ? Or permanent moritorium as is? Or . . .??

Toonces is right about one thing: start conserving water right now!

FOGSWAMP said...

Mike ...... Sounds like you and Richard are Ultra-obstructionists of the first degree.

The County is asking for input and I simply offered same on Ann's blog.

You didn't "misread" my post, you obviously are not capable of comprehending what you read.

Where do you get the wrongheaded notion " business owners had banded together to fight those incompetent county planning folk".

What the hell are you smoking?

Mike said...

...hey, just following Ann's lead... I've changed my stance, it is time to delay any sewer, anywhere... That's what you have finally convinced me is the right direction... Let' delay that sewer for another 30 years, I sure don't want to pay for the increased cost created by only a few years...

Hell, let's set a goal to drag this war out until the US Supreme Court is forced to rule against all the corrupt politicians who are ramming this sewer down our throats... There is absolutely no scientific evidence that any of the septic tanks are the cause... It's got to be the ag runoff and all the animals... have they tested for bat-shit in the water...??? ...bet there's a bunch of that in poor Ann's drinking water lately...

Sewertoons said...

Ann, I don't think that having a sewer in the PZ can allow building on the inside and disallow it on the outside. Water for either ALL comes from the same place. The words "Basin Management Plan" come to mind. Dense growth outside the PZ seems very unlikely, and if you are on an acre or more, (are there any lots that small out of town without doing a lot split which seems difficult to the point of impossible) you'd go through the same hoops as anywhere in the County. What would the 218 vote be for? You couldn't support an assessment vote for imported water without including everyone in and out of the PZ - not enough density to pay for it!

Prehistoric water law has not been altered that I have heard. Ag needs still trumps housing.

I see a pond, AWIPS or otherwise, still as an ancient technology, but with the terminology of modern needs placed over them.

Sewertoons said...

The only place I see another 218 coming is for the vacant property owners to opt in to the sewer. But if they cannot be guaranteed access to water, therefore have the ability to build --what on earth would they do with a sewer?

FOGSWAMP, what 218 to spread costs up the hill do you mean? If it wasn't with a 218, how could the County spread the costs? Fairness and equity would lie in the hands of the ISJ's water purveyors - of which the County is only a small part - Water Law is beyond the scope of the County to change, it can only put the clamps on water use if it can be proven that water is just about out -- which would extend to farmers and other private well users too. Spreading costs would mean the purveyors upping water rates to pay to move wells and build interties between water systems and to build water clean-up methods wouldn't it?

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez:"The only place I see another 218 coming is for the vacant property owners to opt in to the sewer. But if they cannot be guaranteed access to water, therefore have the ability to build --what on earth would they do with a sewer?"

That's the real sticky place. No sewer, no house. No water, no house.

Fogswamp sez of Mike:"
You didn't "misread" my post, you obviously are not capable of comprehending what you read.

Where do you get the wrongheaded notion " business owners had banded together to fight those incompetent county planning folk".

What the hell are you smoking?"

Uh, think it's all them martinis. Plus, Mike just makes things up.

Mike said...

..and Good morning to you, Ann...

...and we're expected to believe that you haven't made "facts" up in your quest to blame everyone you disagree with...???

I suspect that you actually believe your nonsense... Oh well, keep tryng to delay the sewer, I'm with you now... I'm figuring I need another 30 years to escape the horrible sewer bill... Thanks Ann for all your dreams of the perfect sewer... anywhere but in Los Osos...

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

You're right Richard... catch later this week for lunch... bye

FOGSWAMP said...

Toons .... Re 218 vote.

I was referring to John Diodati's remarks on the County Bog under the heading "Future Actions".

He stated "An option for spreading some of the Project costs commumity-wide is provided under Prop. 218 through the approval of a special tax."

Yes,I have to agree the future looks bleak for poor folk in town and I guess the vacant lot owners could simply use a Ron's idea with outdoor urination.

Perhaps the simplest remedy to spread the cost would be to move the gerrymandered lines of the PZ.
Just paint a different color on the lines outside the present PZ.

There is no credible evidence that these folk are not contributing to the so-called nitrate pollution problem, especially in the crowded Cabrillo housing track.

In the Martin track, the lots may be larger but what evidence is there that the pits and lines are working properly. Some pits have just recently been dug up and rebuilt because of that very reason and some of that area is not that high above groundwater.

Even in the political arena, I don't think that many believe that gerrymandering is a good thing. In my view it's an outrageously unfair practice, inconsistent
with the basic principals of democracy and perhaps even unconstitutional.

Look at Exhibit "B" of the recent ISJ report which shows the NO3 level of GSWC Cabrillo water well at 18, higher than any water well in the PZ hostage zone (other than contaminated wells indicated as same) and about 9 times higher that the LOCSD Palisades well which supplies nearly 50% of LOCSD water.

Shouldn't the Cabrillo Estates subdivision and the Martin Track have been be included in the PZ?

Ron said...

FOG wrote:

" I guess the vacant lot owners could simply use a Ron's idea with outdoor urination.

Just to be clear, composting toilets aren't my idea. I originally got the idea from a brilliant Canadian wastewater expert at this link:

http://list.web.net/archives/sludgewatch-l/2005-November/000972.html

All I did (more than three years ago) was couple that brilliant idea with the RWQCB's Item 19, where they all but rave about composting toilets in Los Osos (which was a brilliant coupling, I must admit).

And, considering that I already know people in this county the use (and love) composting toilets (with the county's blessing), it's just a matter of time before y'all go Los Fábrica del Fertilizante.

And, to also be clear, Angry Mike and Richdora will be able to relieve themselves of all those martinis... inside. It's perfectly o.k. to urinate in a composting toilet.

And, most definitely, yes: Vacant lot owners should start drafting up some building plans.

[Cool "Sunday Poem," Ann. A starfish in Kansas? Go figure.]

Richard LeGros said...

FS,

The idea of adjusting PZ boundaries ended LONG, LONG ago with the CAWS v RWQCB lawsuit judgement (1995?).

That judgement set the PZ boundaries BY LAW, along with the Court's affirming that the State had the legal authority to set PZ boundaries in any configuration, and for any reason(s) too, that they decided in the course of open public meetings. The RWQCB will not adjust the boundaries simply as they don't have too.

When the CAWS v RWQCB ruling is coupled with the US 9th District Court ruling on the Keller v LOCSD lawsuit (2003)(the ruling has been posted in this blog many times)...the result is that the citizens of the PZ have no remaining legal basis upon which to repel the established State policy in question.

If you wish to alter this situation, then you will have to change the core laws upon which the State has vested authority in the SWRCB and RWQCB.

M said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
M said...

The core laws being 'you will do as we say!!!!'?
And Richard, please, Mike lives in A.G. and his only part of this sewer is by relation. For you two to come on this blog and obsessively remind us of our serious consequenses created by you and your minnion is really becoming annoying.
I went back in Ann's archives a bit to find Mikes previous statement about his service career. I didn't find it, but I know it's there some where if I really want to look hard enough. What I did take from my walk in the recent past though is Mike is by far the most prominent commentator on this site. By that I mean shear numbers of comments. Actually, he leads most catagories with the exception being 'reason.' Most profane, most rude, most redundant. Most threatning. That you two are such bosom buddies say's it all.
Sincerely, M

FOGSWAMP said...

Richard ...... Thank you for making my point.

You stated in part "the State had the legal authority to set PZ boundaries in any configuration" and my point was that the State still has the right to set it right.

Perhaps you can enlighten readers why you think ( or perhaps wish) that right was taken from the State.

Sewertoons said...

FOGSWAMP, I'm sure there is a large moral indignation component that all of Los Osos is not in the PZ. But Richard is right, that case was presented by CAWS and lost (then appealed and lost again) a long time ago (and strengthened by the Keller loss). Sometimes we just have to accept stuff and move on.

We can be glad Cabrillo wasn't included anyway. The costs to add them in would be huge. We'd ALL pay more than we already are.

How much would it COST the state to look at any of this again? Why would they want to if no one forced them to do it? If a lawsuit didn't sway them back when… what would make them look now?

Even if there were something to be done, nothing can happen in time to change THIS sewer project anyway.

FOGSWAMP said...

toons .... No one is suggesting they hook up, just pay-up a little to help the lowlanders, where their wastewater is polluting.

When Bruce Payne asked the RB why Cabrillo Estates was not included in the PZ area at a staff meeting they stated that it was because hydro-geologic information at that time indicated groundwater from that area flows westerly and therefore does not contribute to the water quality impairment of the greater basin.

We have a lot more information now than we did when the PZ lines were drawn.

If Cabrillo Estates is not polluting the Cabrillo well in such high numbers, who in hell is?

GetRealOsos said...

Lynette,

Regarding the blogging from me to you and you to me from days ago...

I am sorry, I forgot, you know more than Rob Miller, and the State Water Board, or any expert that's weighed in on Los Osos pollution issue and sewer issue.

And I believe Richard is wrong. The ruling he talks about occurred prior to the 218 becoming law. Why won't Richard acknowledge the Prop 218 law being law?!!!!

What about the house a few feet away from Bruce Payne's that's not in the PZ? The PZ is illegal and has and will create many illegal issues regarding benefit.

Richard doesn't know what he's talking about. He only knows where all the corruption is. How about you Lynette. What's your stake in this?

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alon Perlman said...

Fogswamp
Include Lawn fertilizer irrigation,
\As well as septics at Cabrillo.
All users of the basin should participate since it is a basin wide benefit. How? Even 218 for undev. properties won't pass.

If I was going out to dig a well, Bruce P. would be someone who'se advice I'd take. Otherwise it would be a very short list.

Given contours of land I'm not sure how much of cabrillo flows west primarily. But the dominant flows overall in los osos; surface and some subsurface are to the west
with about 10 to 20 Degrees north.

Frankly, I don't see the regulatory/Legal picture changing.
And I don't see that people are going to stop arguing this and other issues to the CSD, as if the CSD at any time in it's POST '05 history could do anything about it.
(or post Anyo Dominae, 2701)

Sewertoons said...

GRO, my stake in this as a PZ homeowner is to get the project done as quickly as possible. As we have seen, we delay, we pay. And we won't just be paying more for a sewer, but more for water, as fancier plans will be needed to clean up enough of it for all of us to continue to live here.

Word verification: dubbl

GetRealOsos said...

Lynette,

Congratulations. Your big over-priced sewer has lowered the home values in half. The prices are so low and will get lower as all the seniors and people out of work are forced to sell or walk away because they just can't afford the taxes (and high hook-up costs and more rates and charges on top of the assessment) for the most expensive sewer per capita in the country. The inventory will be so great that only the realtors (and Shaunna Sullivan types with their dozens of homes they've scooped up over the years cheap) will cash in on.

The PZ was wrong and people on the RWQCB used no science but also had a conflict of interest when drawing the line.

We are in a deep recession Lynette, people can't afford what MWH's sewer will cost. They are many ways to take care of a wastewater system that don't have MWH's pattern of raising costs throughout the process.

I've mentioned before that Paavo himself said the cost could double or triple. He knows that. Richard LeGros knows that too.

In fact, any other system besides MWH would cost less. You want MWH -- why again Lynette? Why MWH???

And, that whole delay we pay is wrong too, and you know it. Newspaper article after article have stated costs are down because contractors need the work -- the recession Lynette! ...haven't you heard about it?...

Just keep repeating Pandora's lines over and over and maybe, just maybe, some people will believe you!! It seems to work here in Los Osos!!!

Mike said...

GRO... How much do you think YOUR house is worth TODAY...??? Half of what you paid for it...??? Less...???

Is it possible the banking industry had anything to do with the reduction in property values today...??? ...or was it all the Los Osos sewer...????

Are you really that stupid...???

Richard is absolutely correct when he says we should leave you crazies be... you really are a waste of time...!!!!

GetRealOsos said...

Mike,

Yes, it's the sewer that has the houses at half of what they were in 2005. It will only get worse with all the inventory that will be there in the next 2-5 years.

Is it that bad in Morro Bay, Pismo, or AG?

NOPE!

Look at who's stupid!!

Sewertoons said...

GRO,

Maybe if we had a sewer, our prices would be less depressed…? When we went to buy a house in 2005, those in Morro Bay, Pismo, or AG were all more expensive than the LO houses of comparable size, location and condition!

Why are you complaining to me about the Water Board - think I have some influence over there? HAH!

People voted for a gravity sewer. Get over it.

M said...

Sewertoons, when did we vote for a gravity sewer?
Sincerely, M

FOGSWAMP said...

Alon .... Your probably right, the regulatory picture probably won't change because we pissed the Water Board folk off big time, but the Legal part may be the same, with more Law suits and delay.

The whole pollution picture has changed since the PZ thing came along, with the water problems and the huge nitrate contribution from farmers. We all dwell in the same basin.

The discriminating gerrymandering line-drawing by the State at this point in time only serves to cause diversity in the community and a huge disparate impact on the poor.

The ball is still in the County's hands and seemingly they are seeking to float the costs somehow.

As I see it, the single biggest thing we can do to spread the costs is to add a fractional County tax to the water bills of households outside the PZ area, all the way up the valley. The County could then funnel the funds to the overall costs of the wastewater project. This would do and end-run around the now bizarre cost shifting, mal-apportionment Water Board scheme.

They could call it a Harmonizing Sales Tax (HST).

This scheme would no doubt surely get some folk outside the PZ singing, but get them to join the chorus and pay their fair share.

If that wouldn't fly locally, how about Statewide inasmuch as this is a Statewide problem. Look at Maiibu for instance.

Sewertoons said...

M, I misspoke. We filled out a survey. We made our wishes known was the point that I was trying to make.

FOGSWAMP,
I might have read it, but I have forgotten, which water study blames the farmers? Can the County impose such a tax as you suggest? How would well users (farmers), which comprise 1/3 of basin users be taxed? Would you want to pay such a tax if you lived outside of the PZ?

Will there be a Democratic majority in the fall?

Richard LeGros said...

FS,

We partially agree.
The 'HST' is already in the works.

An intent of the CSD's lawsuit against the water purveyors (initiated by my board in 2003) is (as a matter of 'fairness') to force the water purveyors (within and outside the PZ) to participate financially towards resolving basin water issues (distinct from WASTEwater issues). The intent here is to fairly spread the costs of achieving the community's water quality goals. This lawsuit also includes ‘John Does' defendants that own and operate private wells within the basin ('up the valley'); so their financial contributions will be determined too.

In order to protect and preserve the community's endangered water supply, I doubt those outside the PZ will oppose additional fees on their water bills in this instance.

However, do not expect those living outside the PZ to have any interest in being absorbed into the PZ; or wish to participate in the County's WWTP either.

FOGSWAMP said...

Toons ..... I was referring to the article in the Tribune yesterday about LOV farmers and fertilizer use, and nitrates.

I once read somewhere the huge amounts of water the LOV farmers are permitted to pump, even during periods of long drought. Come hell or Saltwater, the ocean is rising and that does not help intrusion. Are they overwatering or can they use less fertilizer, or perhaps more environmentally fertilizer?

However you look at it, they are contributing.

"How would they be taxed?" I thought you and others that believe in fairness and equity would contribute something positive to the issue.

Ron said...

"Richard," could you do me a favor?

Run for the Los Osos CSD Board again.

Aw, gawd, that'd be great.

If you want to see your delusion that people in your town actually, you know, like you, evaporate in one election night, then run for the LOCSD Board again.

What number do you think you'd pull?

I bet it'd be about the same number that picked the Tri-W site for their preferred location in the county's survey: "9%"... IF that!

Oh, that'd be hilarious.

Please run for office, again. Pretty please!

I promise I'll cover your campaign. You have my word on that.

GRO wrote:

"Just keep repeating Pandora's lines over and over and maybe, just maybe, some people will believe you!! It seems to work here in Los Osos!!!"

Oooooo... lookeeee Los Osos... little shiny things... you stupid f--ks.

Now, go "Celebrate Los Osos," and don't forget to "send a check to Nash-Karner at 350 Mitchell Drive," like it said in the Bay News the other day, and make it a FAT check, you cheap bastards.

FOGSWAMP said...

Richard ....... " That's already in the works" .

That's really good to hear, thanks.

I didn't think you would want to contribute a dime toward the WWTP because it probably doesn't fit the dis-compassionate, vengeful agenda you and others seem to portray in having folk just pay up or leave town.

I din't suggest including the rest of the basin dwellers into the PZ area. I simply suggested another line be drawn around the gerrymandered line and paint the outside line a different color. Like Brown inside and Yellow for you folk outside.

M said...

Funny Sewertoons how you poo poo the results of a recall vote, but then consider a survey as the holy grail. What I got out of that survey was convince us not to use gravity. Pretty hard to do when there are no figures to back up your argument against.
Good morning Mike. How is the weather down your way?
Sincerely, M

The Razor said...

New Razor Online article released.

STEP vs. SLO County: The Case for Product Disparagement
Corporations have been sued for product disparagement before, but the San Luis Obispo County government may be the first governing body to be held liable for such an act if they’re proven to be wrong about their facts in dismissing the STEP collection system.
Click here to read more.

Also, the community survey had a return rate of 34%. 80% out of that 34% voted for gravity based on a push-poll question. In reality, 23% of the entire community supports gravity. The other 77% is unknown.

Mike said...

...is the Razor now acting as legal council for a real lawsuit, STEP vs SLO County...??? ...bet the County Legal staff is trembling in fear of that one....

...or just more wishful thinking to try another delaying tactic to stall any sewer, anywhere in Los Osos...

...but as long as the community doesn’t have to fund that imaginary lawsuit, it will only remain a potdream of some uneducated and inexperienced wantabe sewer lawyer...

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Alon Perlman said...

Amazing how these persistent Spam-Bots show up randomly, with some shill statements, shamelessly hawking their cheesy wares, trying to generate traffic and responses, designed to redirect you to their soft-porn sits or worse.

Even more amazing is the human inclination to stick his finger back into the cheap tawdry little Chinese finger trap, waste time on childish games and see if the trap will hold up this time. Not understanding that it will just keep the pest coming back. To the enfant horrible; The game is the game, occupying the time of the adults (The Big), getting attention. It really has no interest in the integrity of the doodads it offers.

Word verification for today "hoxie"
No foolies

Fogswamp. The basin wide idea has been around for years. In some ways it has been sabotaged by it’s proponents.
And the mechanism you describe is a Tax that is outside of the realm of the county to impose. I’d love if it were that simple. You too know that, but I get it, If only things worked simply and rationally.

Richard LeGros said...

Ahhh, Aaron,

Let us look at your numbers:

ASSUMED:
1. Only adult residents can participate in the survey.
2. In Los Osos, let us assume that of Los Osos' 15,000 total population that 12,000 are adults; and allowed to participate in the survey.

THEREFORE:

80% of 34% of the community total adults (12,000) equals 3264 adults (27% of the adult population).

If you extend the results on the assumption that voter percentage support for gravity v SS would not change, that means that if the rate of adult participation increased from 34% TO 100% (a three fold increase in the results) THEN the number of adults supporting gravity would be (3264) x 3 = 9,792 adults.....or 81.6% of the total adult population of Los Osos.

Even is the rate of support for gravity was half of the initial survey amongst the additional 67% participating, that would still result in over 61% adult support for gravity over SS.

By any measure, a majority of Los Osos.


FS

Just to be clear......
I, and most of the remaining 340,000,000 other Americans living outside the PZ, will resist being absorbed into the PZ; and will resist paying anything into the WWTP either. As far as I can see, the PZ is solely on the hook to pay for the cleanup of the water basin. Expect little, if any, outside-the-PZ assistance.

However, I completely accept and expect that my WATER RATES will be increased to raise money to pay for improvements to our WATER SYSTEM and WATER BASIN MANAGEMENT.

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Sewertoons said...

M, I have not poo poo'd the results of the recall vote, just regretted it. I have talked to people who voted yes on Measure B and on seeing the results have been very contrite for voting that way. 20 votes is not much. If you took the renters out of the equation, it never would have passed.

M - didn't you trust Ripley's figures? Of course to still make those figures credible, he has backed off lately in favor of rehabbing the bulk of the tanks with liners rather than replacing them and subsequently forgetting that he had earlier stated that many septic tanks are also undersized for a STEP application and would need replacing anyway.

As to the Razor's opinion on the survey - the 77% unknown's preference is nothing and means nothing. If you don't express your opinion, it is immaterial. The 23% rule because they stated their opinion. You just sound angry that the STEP/STEG salesmen did not do a good enough job selling their wares. I hope that you have written them an angry letter.

FOGSWAMP, it might be a tad off to state what the farmers are "oermitted" to pump. Their property rights to pump are codified in state law. Their needs trump housing's. It would be up to the Supes to lay down some local ordinance allowed them by law concerning the water shortage in the basin. I would expect that would be something that would be decided in the courts and in fact may be ignored by them due to the ISJ. Thanks Richard, that ISJ fact is never remembered.

Hey - let's imagine how many votes ron would get if he ran for office!

Sewertoons said...

Whoops - PERMITTED!

M said...

How about $200 a month Richard. Sounds good to me. I thought your lunch with Mike wasn't until tomorrow?
Does Mike have some ties with Oregon? Hmmm.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

I wonder if Paige's "demand" letter has any money behind it? The letter isn't that costly, but the lawsuit to follow would be.

Git yer p-nuts, git yer red-hots, the circus is about to begin (again)!

M said...

Anybody willing to wager on rather MWH gets this project? I am not a betting man and I don't know how the odds system works. I assume someone would have to take the position that MWH would not get it. Odds anybody?
Toons, as I remember, the survey asked something like "if step/steg cost x amount more than gravity would you prefer or accept that?" If you want to put any weight to that survey, all you have to consider is that so few wanted Tri-W. End of story.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

Anyone willing to wager there is (are) one or more lawsuits about to begin? I don't know how this works either…

Equality would have been, "If Tri-W cost $xxx and out of town cost $xxxxxx, which would you prefer?

The "savings" offered by Step wasn't enough apparently to gamble with your very own, personal, non-project financed on-lot costs.

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Richard LeGros said...

M,

As to the survey regarding the Tri-W location, go tell your response to the 82% of the Property owners who ACCEPTED, APPROVED and PAID for the purchase of Tri-W property for the location of the treatment plant per the 2002 Bond Assessment Vote. Remember that the SPECIFIC ASSESSMENT VOTE has more validity factually and leagally than the County's NON-BINDING survey.

M said...

A vote turned into your office. A vote where non-votes were counted as yes votes.
Your choice.
Lincoln, Ne.
Lincoln, Ill.
Lincoln, Ca.(my choice)
Sincerely, M

GetRealOsos said...

Lynette,

Your comment back to me re: Morro Bay and Pismo Beach being higher in price than LO is IRRELEVANT. Sure their prices have always been higher, that wasn't my point.

I'm stating that their values haven't dropped in half like they have in Los Osos!!! (And they will continue to fall here too.)

Also, it's funny what you care not to address.

Why act as a salesman yourself selling only the most expensive system by MWH???

That's what my question was.

And regarding the regional water board and a conflict of interest, well, you seemed to have missed the point there too...(are you smoking some whacky weed??) I was saying that both Les and George Rathmill did benefit by having the line (PZ) drawn (w/no science) where it was!! It was most certainly a conflict of interest.

Mike said...

...so funny... but like all the arguments of the MTS, No Sewer, Magic Sands, NIMBY...and my favorite, it will block my view of the trailer park... all guess, lots of wishes and made up facts...

I'm actually sitting in a hotel room in Portland OR this evening, reading/responding... It is actually hilarious reading all the guesses M is making... or is M actually oldduffo or whatever that paranoid individual called himself...??? He was building dossiers on everyone in LO... trying to build some imaginary case with an undefined point... an absolute nut case... Is M that same person...????

Richard LeGros said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Mike said...

Good Evening Richard... weather is a ok, little overcast and cool, sort of like Los Osos, but no fog today... sounds like what we were discussing the other day is coming to a head... Best to sit back and watch the fireworks... I've done all I can for awhile... and this blog is just spinning around going no where, thought maybe we could get some folks to open their minds... but doesn't seem like they ever will... See ya when I getback....

FOGSWAMP said...

Richard .... My, my, what egoism you display when you stated "I, and most of the remaining 340,000,000 other Americans .........will resist ......... being absorbed into the PZ ......will resist paying anything ...either".

It reads like you are one egotistic self-appointed spokesperson for 340,000,000 other Americans !!!

I like the part that you "completely accept and expect that my Water Rates ........ Will raise money to pay for improvements to our ..... Water Basin".

So I would think you do in fact expect to pay into the PZ WWTP, which allegedly will improve and protect our water systems.

Just yo be clear some help is better than no help.

GetRealOsos said...

Meg Whittman will tour the Santa Paula WWTP tomorrow and will give a speech on the unique delivery method and recognize the project as one of the ways that CA as a state can utilize Public Private Partnerships to provide cost effective solutions that will get people back to work, help the economy and provide the needed infrastructure utilizing the DBOF model and CA Code 5956.

Since, as the former CEO of EBAY, Ms. Whitman is clearly a "bigtime" expert in business and finance, this is a real testimony to PERC Water's WWTP delivery approach. I am quite sure that once she sees the facility, she will also be a fan of their technology as well.

Sewertoons said...

Hmmm… this article makes for interesting reading.

http://www.santapaulatimes.com/news/fullstory.php/aid/21053/Council:_Ad_hoc_committee_to_study_disputed_$1.667_million_PERC_claim.html

Sewertoons said...

GRO, I am not supporting MWH per se, just a GRAVITY system. Whoever designed it, whoever builds it - I don't care.

Maybe the sewer controversy has depressed the prices in Los Osos - ever think of that? I have spoken to a number of people who have moved into the area and have been renting, looking to buy. Each one has declined buying in Los Osos, despite the housing bargains, because of the sewer mess.

M said...

Anybody looking to buy here right now already knows there is going to be a $200+ sewer bill. No matter where or what type of system. Since their okay with that why not buy at a deflated price?
Mike, I may be a little nutty but i'm not that person whoever it is that you're talking about. I am not collecting dossiers on anybody. I stumbled upon something on the Internet including a biography of that person that matches your's. Could it be just a coincidence? Possible. But when you put the name to it, it gives one pause to think that there is a connection here. With that connection in mind it seems likely that Richard, yourself, and this other person that has your exact same biography would know each other. If i'm wrong I apoligize for insinuating.
Sincerely, M
P.S. Richard, I guess I was right about the state?

M said...

I'm confused. I just got a Water Quality Report flyer in the mail from the LOCSD. It states we get our water from ground water wells. The sampling results show no violations. It states " ah, never mind, you probably got one and can read it yourselves.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

M,

$200 a month might be the low end. The controversy so far has suggested that this might not be the end of it. Until it is IN THE GROUND and not just started, you can't be too sure, can you? Don't forget 2005. We'd just moved here and were jubilant that we'd have a REAL sewer soon - and look what happened. You can't make this stuff up! Our reputation out in the world is not so hot, and that's a fact.

The water quality here is just fine! No violations with the CSD or GS, and I'll bet S & T is fine too. We are pumping from the diminishing lower aquifer, not the nitrate laden upper aquifer. We are not quite sucking saltwater up yet from the lower wells.

FOGSWAMP said...

M ..... You're right, the LOCSD Palisades well supplies nearly 50% of total LOCSD water and reads a paltry 1.8 nitrate level, the lowest in the basin and also lowest in the gerrymandered PZ area. Far below State or Federal
levels.

Both Golden States and Cal Cities report findings to be at an average level of less that half the Primary MCL levels set by the heath departments, with No MCL violations.

M said...

So what is up with the flyer I received in the mail?
Sincerely, M