Pages

Saturday, August 22, 2009

Lordy! Lordy! Lizzie, Grab Caesar's Wife And Head For The Fence

In her recent formal complaint to County Counsel, Warren Jensen, former CSD Director Lisa Schicker included about a bazillion pages of documents. Mr. Jensen issued a preliminary report declaring, "Move Along, Nothing To See Here, We'll Look Into The Other Pages, Oh, Sometime, Maybe, And Get Back To You," while the Tribune trumpeted that the charges had been "dismissed," without adding the words, "for now," or "pending," to the headline.

Missing in all this "Jeeze, let's get this off the table and out of the public eye" is this hard lesson of history: If there is some way for somebody to derail or delay the sewer project, they will.

Depend on it.

One of the strongest smart moves the County did when they took over this project was to promise to keep The Process . . . clean. No sticky fingers on the scales, no back-room deals, no funny, sotto voce promises. CLEAN.

Then the promised "real" design-build went off the table, heh-heh, the project was suddenly cut up into pre-determined pieces and we had, ker-poof! a "short list" of qualified contractors with a set "to-do" project, rather than a real open design-build bidding process. And in the middle of that, several players who may or may not be tangled up in the bazillion pages of documents submitted for review.

That's not "clean." That's not "Caesar's Wife," not only being above suspicion but needing to keep the appearance of being above suspicion.

That's also not smart because an "unclean" process can leave too many legal "hooks" that can be used to ju-jitsu this project off the rails. The more legal hooks, the more ju can be jitsued.

Which is why the BOS needs to put Mr. Jensen back to work AND hire a neutral, outside review of the whole bidding process to make sure it's clean, make sure there are no legal , "bright-line hooks" that can come back to trip everyone up. Such a review won't delay anything since it can run simultaneously as this project makes its way forward. (And with the BOS hearings and the Coastal Commission reviews coming up, there'll be plenty of time for proper pauses and slight refinement/changes.)

True, a neutral, professional review may cost a bit, but suppose that review finds a few loose nails laying on the tracks. A few "bright line" nails. And removes them BEFORE the train hurtles down the track.

Near as I can tell, that'd be penny wise and about a bazillion pounds-wise as well.

240 comments:

1 – 200 of 240   Newer›   Newest»
Watershed Mark said...

Why not hire someone who is familiar with the County Process, the community and the Project, someone sharp who can cut through the politics?

David Edge comes to mind as he advised the BOS not to spend a few more million dollars saying the county didn’t have the money. Of course Gail Wilcox spoke up a little later in that BOS meeting to say how the county could extract the funds from somewhere else and put it on next year’s tab. That was before the economy crashed. With 11.9% unemployment in California it’s time for the county to “Change” gears and get a “Real” bang for the people’s tax dollar.

That $7,000,000.00 public side show Paavo put on did not serve the people who paid for it. David Edge was correct, the county didn’t have the money to spend…

But that’s just my opinion.

Gadfly said...

Ann,

Have you read and analyzed the 1300pages of Lisa's evidence?

I have. All 1300 pages.

The evidence entirely consists of self-referential emails, newspaper (hearsay) articles, her own correspondence as a CSD member, post-recall LOCSD resolutions, past CSD contracts.....but NOTHING to show that Paavo has a PERSONAL financial interest in the process or considered firms. BY LAW for Lisa's complaint to be valid she has to show undeniably that Paavo has a personal financial interest in the firm selected in order to have a conflict of interest.

Does Paavo have a history of working with MDW? Sure he does. In government, as in any business, over time working relationships do develop; but that does not mean there is a conflict of interest as defined by law.

Your refusing to accept the findings of the County Council because you believe (without any evidence) that the County Waste Water Project process is corrupt.... just as you did with the pre-recall CSD....just tells folks that you are just playing out of the Sewer Project Obstructionist Handbook. You know, if the 'process' is not going your way, try to redirect or delay the process by making up a bogus issue, vigorously promote it publicly, demand 'justice', and criticize, belittle, berate, and assassinate the characters of any folks that disagree with you.

Aaron said...

The legal definition of conflict of interest gets lost in the complaint that was filed, but the complaint does establish that Paavo Ogren had a prior relationship with MWH that could easily translate into preferential treatment in the design-build RFQ.

I don't think the issue is "bogus" by any stretch of the imagination since Ogren was, in fact, the Interim GM of the LOCSD in '99 who asked Buel to backdate the MWH contracts.

Conflict of interest is extremely hard to prove in the Court of Law because you need to show that money was given to the person in question by that interest with the INTENT of performing favorably for them, but what's to stop a person from giving that interest favors when he/she had a prior working relationship with them in the past?

The issue becomes not only a legal issue, but an ethical issue.

Of course, if I was the one to file a formal complaint against Ogren, I would have not used the term "conflict of interest." I would establish the concern that Paavo Ogren's previous working relationship with MWH could have played a role in other contractors being exempt from County consideration.

Watershed Mark said...

Gad-P wrote: "Your refusing to accept the findings of the County Council..."

Who are you and why are you defending a "preliminary" statement that admitted/prefaced all 1300 pages were not reviewed took months to provide?

Let's get an "Edge" to bear down on the county.

Watershed Mark said...

Who are you and why are you defending a "preliminary" statement that admitted/prefaced, all 1300 pages were not reviewed and took months to provide?

Do you work for Paavo or Bruce?

Gadfly said...

An ethical issue?

And who decides what is ethical? Who?

You cannot surmise, nor does it logically follow, that because a person has worked for or with another person or firm in the past automatically means that preferential treatment was given to one person / firm at the expense of others. If you are to state so, you must prove the allegation with HARD, UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE; and there is no evidence provided by Lisa. Lisa provides only speculation.

County Council (who is legally bound and professionally liable to provide correct legal advice to the County and its citizens) has responsibly reviewed the allegation and has found no conflict. Ardently 'feeling', 'believing' or 'speculating' that a conflict of interest might exist (either financial or ‘ethical”) is not proof. To opine endlessly about the alleged conflict of interest without evidence is just sloppy reasoning.

M said...

Gadfly, are you the one that asked "What kind of message would we be sending the children if we built a WWTP there?" In regards to the Pismo site?
Sincerely, M

Aaron said...

Gadfly,

Regarding who decides what is ethical, that's a very open-ended perspective. Let's say I find it to be an ethical issue. If people of Los Osos agree that Mr. Ogren's involvement with MWH is an ethical issue, then that consensus warrants a third-party investigation.

You're right about one thing. Just because someone worked with an interest in the past doesn't mean they're necessarily favoring that interest later on in their career, but the question remains. Did MWH rise to the top because of their accomplishments or did they float to the top of the RFQ because Mr. Ogren thinks very highly of them due to his past experiences with them? I don't need to make any assertions. I only have to establish a concern that is grounded with "hard, undeniable" facts. I'm aware of those facts and so are you.

My concerns also go beyond "feelings" and speculation. My concern is: how come this speculation exists? How come there is room for speculation to exist?

Mr. Ogren never publicly -- or has gone on the record to explain -- talked in detail about his involvement with MWH. We only find out about the depths of his involvement in the complaint.

To flatly deny that Ogren put MWH on top of the design-build RFQ because of his past involvement with them (without evidence to the contrary) is not just sloppy reasoning. It's also being delusional. You're not in his head. You're not his Ms. Cleo. You don't know his intentions.

Watershed Mark said...

Are you suggesting that Warren can answer a citizen’s complaint about his boss’s employee without a conflict of interest, when the citizen who is paying his salary has lodged the complaint? Why didn’t he?
Warren is conflicted to be sure, which is one reason he answered in such a weak and preliminary manner. It’s all good, while we wait for Warren to finalize or retire.

These issues aren’t going away they are getting hairier with age…

Why was STEP/STEG removed from the design build process?
Why was Vacuum NEVER studied during a $7,000,000.00 study of alternatives process?

Paavo, Bruce or both?

Watershed Mark said...

Just for fun:

Vincent Price:

Darkness falls across the land
The midnight hour is close at hand
Creatures crawl in search of blood
To terrorize y'all's neighborhood
And whosoever shall be found
Without the soul for getting down
Must stand and face the hounds of hell
And rot inside a corpse's shell

I'm gonna thrill you tonight
(Thriller, thriller)
I'm gonna thrill you tonight
(Thriller night, thriller))
I'm gonna thrill you tonight
Ooh, babe, I'm gonna thrill you tonight
Thriller night, babe


The foulest stench is in the air
The funk of forty thousand years
And grizzly ghouls from every tomb
Are closing in to seal your doom
And though you fight to stay alive
Your body starts to shiver
for no mere mortal can resist
the evil of the thriller

LOSTDEP is a THILLER!

Sewertoons said...

As gadfly says, "To opine endlessly about the alleged conflict of interest without evidence is just sloppy reasoning."

Yes and no. I think it is calculated reasoning -- as was used in the past to derail the project in 2005. The words, "liquefaction," "sludge falling off the back of open trucks," "spills going into the bay," etc. generated enough fear to get that 49.3% vs. 50.7% vote to call the whole thing off. That is the motive behind this. To get the project back from the County to freewheel it into another period of oblivion. I don't think there is time to gain traction for that and the credibility factor of the accuser has sunk too low so as to guarantee its failure.

I don't think it ever really was about conflict of interest to the people pulling the strings.

Watershed Mark said...

Why do you lie sorry, I forgot his ladt name Lynette?

Watershed Mark said...

Why do you lie sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette?

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette & MIKE little mouse,

Your Public Works Department just spent $7 million on an EIR that didn’t even satisfy your own agricultural policies, much less the Coastal Commission’s. If you are not shaking in your boots, either because of anger or fear, something is wrong.

The design-build process has been totally corrupted by the Public Works Department.

7:18 AM, August 21, 2009

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote: "I don't think it ever really was about conflict of interest to the people pulling the strings."

Why do you lie sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette and what color is the sky in your world sweetie?

Gadfly said...

First, the 5 members of the BOS short listed MDW, not Paavo. Are you suggesting all of them have a conflict of interest?

Second, ethical issues are completely subjective, and as such who could the County retain to investigate the complaint...the Pope...the Dali Lama?

An investigation must be based upon the LAW, and analyzed strictly by the FACTS / EVIDENCE. That investigation has already been performed by County Council; and I concur with the Council as Lisa has not provided ANY EVIDENCE other than hearsay.

Sewertoons makes reasonable observation in that those supporting Lisa's Complaint are doing so for 'calculated reasons' rather 'sloppy thinking'. (See my comments above).

Lisa claims to want a 'clean' process as it will result in a better, less expensive project. It is reasonable to ask what a ‘clean’ process is, and 'clean' according to who. It is not logical, nor is it reasonable to assume, that a 'clean' process will result in a less expensive or better project. As such, her reasons to file the complaint does not ring true in light of reality.

Mike said...

Those with the authority make the rules... Ms. Schecker has no authority and quite simply, does not speak for the majority of the community...

The wantabe sewer lawyer/experts have shot their wad and are no longer credible, merely a small minority who seek to halt or delay any sewer within Los Osos with any means possible or imagined...

What is the next step for those obstructionists...??? Maybe Al Barrow of the Los Osos Legal Defense Fund will step up to throw another mental breakdown but this time, instead of cursing and threatening, he'll pull out a pistol to shoot the Water Board or BOS or Paavo or anyone else he disagrees with...

So keep encouraging the challeging of every preceived violations of laws and processes, and continue the personal character assasinations, sooner or later one of the extremist obstructionists will go postal... Al is already a certified mental case amd ready to fly off with just a little more cheerleading... Hopefully his aim will be as wild as Schickers "complaint"...

Alon Perlman said...

Word verification today is;rambo

I did not read 1300 pages, Heck I read most of the DEIR and that wasn't easy. Writing a DEIR review that matched very closely with what the Coastal Commission and other Agencies said later? Easy as pie.

In the materials submitted initially, I expected to find the following.
1.)The memo -Bruce Buell instructed to backdate by Paavo Ogren. Check
2.)The actual Contract in question, MWH CSD and the 2 signatures, dated. Check. However, I'm not sure that was in the initial submission or the later material).
3.)The DA's actual comment in context of a formal opinion not as quoted in a news paper article.
Not found in the initial submission. Not found in the later submitted materials.
My review of the initial submission covered more than 50%. The review of the additional materials was not complete and will not be complete because part of it is the correspondence received during the PC's work on the project and I had reviewed that already but, skipping irrelevant materials and duplication.
I was also looking for my comments (I submitted 3 letters) and reviewing some of what else was submitted for content relevant to helping the PC in their project conditions.
Those 3 documents would account for only about 15 pages.
I am asking this question of Gadfly who I hope Isn't former director Legros but fine if UR.
I did find Mr. Legros presence on this Blog to be mostly helpful.

The question: Verification, or Original DA's comment, is it in the original, or in subsequent submissions? and where? Please link to it. This question is open to anyone who has reviewed all the materials, or who was able to find the document in question, without a full review.

Gadfly said...

What 'question' are u asking as i did not see one?

Alon Perlman said...

Uh? I listed 3 documents that I consider critical.
3.)The DA's actual comment in context of a formal opinion not as quoted in a news paper article.
and later...
The question: Verification, or Original DA's comment, is it in the original, or in subsequent submissions? and where? Please link to it.
A document written by the DA who reviewed this case initially.
Not the newspaper article but an actual opinion by the DA who found the statue of limitations and said something to the efffect of "criminal". I will not refer you to the newspaper article, since it issubmitted within the original article.
(I think Mr. Legros would had got that right away, being that there were communications to this effect, on this blog)

Aaron said...

First, Bruce Gibson said, at LOCAC meetings off camera, that MWH was recommended by Ogren because of their "long list of accomplishments and experience they have with Los Osos," so Gadfly isn't correct.

Second, there are ethical investigations that are conducted regularly around the country. The reasoning for starting these investigations may be subjective, but sometimes the results produce new information about those who are being investigated (see Sarah Palin).

Third, investigations don't necessarily need to be based on law, but the law can be used to retrieve information. For example, Californians can request public records and conduct their own investigations under the Public Records Act (Government Code §§ 6250 - 6276.48) and the results of their own investigations can evolve into criminal investigations with facts and evidence.

I think Lynette Tornatzky is -- once again and will always be -- wrong about this issue. What we're seeing here are people who thought "conflict of interest" meant close ties with the interest, not just financial ties. The claim of "conflict of interest" is interchangeable with the idea of guilt by association. Tornatzky consistently presumes conspiracy by talking about "calculated reasons."

What I'm talking about is the appearance of bias and favoritism. So I'm told that it is impossible for Paavo to consider MWH like, "Hey Gibson, I've worked with these fine folks before. They'll get the job done in Los Osos"? You think that thought never crossed his mind? Sure, let's not be the thought police, but maybe it's a good idea to find another person in Public Works to oversee the project, not this guy.

Disruptive to the process? Well we know STEP/STEG isn't going to magically appear on the table if he was replaced and the Planning Commission has already had their say. Some of the flawed cogs in the machine need to be replaced so the machine can run smoothly.

Gadfly said...

The LOCSD 2006 complaint to the DA (included in Lisa's filing) and the DA's 2006 investigation / response to that complaint (not included in Lisa’s filing) focused solely on the post-recall CSD's allegation that original contract between the LOCSD and MDW was illegal.

That is not the core issue of Lisa’s 2009 Complaint allegations of conflict of interest, corruption or bid-rigging by the County. To my knowledge the DA has not been asked to investigate the 2009 complaint, let alone respond to it.

Also, I did not find the response by the USEPA to the LOCSD 2005 Complaint filed with the USEPA even though she included the LOCSD 2005 USEPA complaint in her 2009 complaint to the County.

I do not have on hand the DA’s 2006 response. I have read it; and do not recall any definitive response that the LOCSD had acted illegally. Anyone who has the DA’s response could post it.

The two complaints (LOCSD 2006 complaint to the DA and the Lisa’s 2009 complaint) are separate and not to be confused. Confusing, huh?

Mike said...

...much ado about nothing...!!!

It doesn't matter who is the government, County, State or Fed, lead in the design or selection of engineering, those opposed to any sewer in LO will complain... Lisa is just one... then there are the obstructionism by nitpicing, the Ann and Aarons... and they will create every smoke screen possible to continue the delay... If the Lisa led CSD really wanted an alternative, they would have made some progress toward their "Plan"... but it was just a lie and in reality just another delaying tactic...

There is no honest technical objection possible of the original design or location which was fully permitted and begun... and we just may be seeing the return to that project...

Alon Perlman said...

Thanks for answering GDY. It is even harder to find something that isn't there, but I'd bet Mr. Jenasen had to get a copy.
But yes, the De-novo element (or degree to which prior review and opinion will play a factor) is somthing I'm not clear about.
It is even harder to find something that isn't there, but I'd bet Mr. Jensen Esq. had to get himself a copy.

Gadfly said...

I have to agree with Mike here.....Lisa's 2009 Complaint is a red herring signifying nothing and going nowhere.

As for those that want to talk 'ethics', no thank you. Ethics are completely subjective and fluid; and as such have been under constant debate as long there have been humans. That debate will continue forever. When the issue of ethic is resolved by mankind, give me a call.

I have to point out though that history has repeatedly shown that investigations driven by 'ethics' have usually resulted in travesty, as the outcome usually revolves around the ethics of the investigators / inquisitors.
Over the millennia, many souls have been burned at the stake because the victim’s ethics were out of sync with their accusers.

This is why the US is a nation based upon LAW and NOT self-appointed strongmen exercising their wills as dictated by their particular ethics.

Aaron said...

... and Gadfly completely ignored everything I said. Good job, Mr. LeGros.

Alon Perlman said...

Well.. That gives me an excellent excuse to repost-
Cesar's wife?
Lot's wife?
Would you belive Vaspasian's wife?

- Money and politics -
In 73/74 he (Vaspasian) restored the office of censor, which he held himself and thereby controlled the senate. His autarchy was strengthened. Aside from the control of the population, the finances of state represented a major problem to Vespasian. The treasury, depleted by the civil war, needed filling desperately, forcing Vespasian to raise and and introduce new taxes (e.g. taxing public lavatories, prompting the famous quote: "pecunia non olet" (Money doesn't stink)), causing derision and criticism.

Originally on Ann's Post re Al Barrow 2 blog postings ago, and following a wikipedia link by WM on Cesar's wife.

Mike said...

...sorry Aaron, you seldom have listened to anyone opposed to the continual posting of smoke screens... ..and you sure like to "guess" who anyone is who hold opposing view points... you really are an wantabe obstructionist...

Gadfly said...

Aaron,

First, I did not know that I was required to respond to you, or anyone else for that matter.

Second, as part of Paavo's job and job description, it is perfectly acceptable and expected for Paavo to recommend firms he finds capable of doing the needed work; and to provide such recommendations to his BOS. Do not forget that the BOS can either accept or reject any recommendations during it’s' deliberations; and the final decisions and policy rests with the BOS alone, not Paavo.

Third, I do not agree with you that investigations driven by ethical questions are proper. That is a slippery slope to follow as the investigation’s driving ethics change over time. Again, ethical issues completely rotate around the ethics of the accuser versus the ethics of those being investigated.

Last, regardless of your perception of an alleged conflict of interest, you must provide hard, undeniable proof; not just speculation and hyperbole.
If the sad day comes when only allegations of impropriety (rather than hard fact, reason and the law) becomes a sufficient basis to drive important social decisions and government, then American and its' revolution will have utterly failed.

Aaron said...

Richard,

You're not "required" to respond to me. Rather, it appears you seemed to conveniently skip over what I wrote by reiterating what you wrote before me.

First, when you wrote, "First, the five members of the BOS short listed MDW," that was a response that didn't address the point I made, which was, "Paavo Ogren had a prior relationship with MWH that could easily translate into preferential treatment in the design-build RFQ." If Paavo didn't recommend MWH, you think the BOS would naturally place MWH on the design-build RFQ without input from Public Works?

Investigations driven by ethical questions can reveal two outcomes: something and nothing. If ethical questions are raised and the answers to those questions yield cause for a formal investigation, then it's proper. There wouldn't be an actual slippery slope if the end-result came up zilch.

The slippery slope argument can be established when taxpayer money is being used to fund intragovernment investigations and analysis, but I'm talking about independent investigations that are conducted by third parties. Remember, it's not a bad thing to ask questions especially within a community that believes they have all the answers.

Without speculation and hyperbole, I can establish the following points: (1) MWH has previously worked with the LOCSD and has experience with working in Los Osos, (2) Paavo Ogren worked with MWH when he was part of the LOCSD and with other County projects and (3) MWH has produced projects that experts have deemed to be unnecessarily expensive.

I come before the people with a concern that the other contractors (like ARB, CH2M Hill and J.R.
Filanc Construction) are being underrepresented due to possible favoritism by Mr. Ogren. Since STEP/STEG has been removed from consideration, I'm removing W.M. Lyles from the list of contractors affected.

Allegations of impropriety have long polluted our democracy. We see it on the news when we watch these disruptive town hall meetings on Obama's health care reform. I agree that hard, undeniable proof should be the just cause of an investigation, but looking for that proof shouldn't be frowned upon.

Sewertoons said...

MWH is one of 3 contractors on the shortlist. Has anyone seen the crystal ball report that says they will win the bid?

Sewertoons said...

Can someone list the people on the team that created the shortlist? Mark Hutchinson, John Waddell, Rob Miller, I believe were three of -- how many more and who were they?

Aaron says:
"I agree that hard, undeniable proof should be the just cause of an investigation, but looking for that proof shouldn't be frowned upon."

So what qualifies as proof? Apparently nothing that Lisa has come up with to date. She has delivered an encyclopedia of irrelevance so far.

Has MWH been convicted in Florida or just been accused?

Aaron said...

Ask that team who recommended MWH and let me know the answer.

Mike said...

Since it appears Aaron disagrees with the County Counsel's dismissal of the Schicker "complaint", could someone compare Warren Jensen's professional legal degrees, experience and education with Aaron Och's legal or other degrees (if any) in order to have a clear understanding of the level of experience and education behind the statements expressed by Aaron...???

M said...

Sewertoons said...
MWH is one of 3 contractors on the shortlist. Has anyone seen the crystal ball report that says they will win the bid?

Since that is probably the worst thing that could happen to this town, I would say it's almost a lock that they will win the bid. At an elevated price.
Sincerely, M

Churadogs said...

Gadfly sez:"just tells folks that you are just playing out of the Sewer Project Obstructionist Handbook."

Horsefeathers. You obviously didn't bother to read what I had written. I don't want any "bright line" hooks on this deal that can be used to stop or trip up this project. I like the Planning Commissions' proposed project, I liked the Ripley "focus on Water" plan. I don't want this project to be stopped by some "nail on the tracks." You are not an attorney, are you? Neither am I. That's why this thing needs to be vetted by people who know what "nails" look like. That's why I hope Jensen will continue and if there's a hint of a problem, catch it now, not later when it could cause another train wreck.

Mike sez:"Since it appears Aaron disagrees with the County Counsel's dismissal of the Schicker "complaint","

How can you "dismiss" something by issuing a PRELIMINARY report, pending completion. Not sure "dismiss" is the right word. Maybe he should have said, partial dismissal of point #1?" or some such.

Mike said...

C'mon Ann... Lisa's "complaint" was just more of her disorganized laundry list of her personal beliefs in her crusade to delay any sewer... Lisa's latest complaint should be tossed on the heap of her other complaints... and ignored for the dilusional smokescreens they are... Lisa still has no plan as to what a sewer should be or where to locate the treatment plant... She does not speak for the community, only herself... Her legacy as a CSD Board member will long be remembered as of one of blaming everyone but herself for the utter failure as an elected official...!!! She will be remembered by bankrupting this community's local government...!!!

Aaron said...

Honestly, I have not completely "dismissed" the preliminary report. I agree with Jensen involving the conflict of interest claim and the lack of negative inferences found in other MWH material, however, I believe Jensen's scope has been narrowed to focusing on any "conflict of interest" evidence and not other legal issues that are found in those 1,300+ pages of material.

The conversation ought to be about what is and isn't in the complaint and Jensen's preliminary analysis of the materials, not, "Lisa Schicker is __________." We can talk until we turn blue in the face regarding Schicker's shortcomings, but constantly addressing the past makes it obvious that you cannot comprehend the present or the future.

franc4 said...

Gladfly sez;
"This is why the US is a nation based upon LAW and NOT self-appointed strongmen exercising their wills as dictated by their particular ethics."
...ya mean like, Gibsons dealing with public comment and cutting off the mic when he don't wanna hear something, or interrupting stuff he don't want heard?
Maybe you ought to talk to him about "strongmen", self appointed or otherwise.

franc4 said...

Mike,
You are still an uninformed JERK!!!!.....lost in you ever undying love for Julie and your un ending attacks on Lisa, because you don't understand anything about ethical folks who want to see justice, not what the County is dishing out, but then you can't see how you are being screwed by them because you are so lost in space.

franc4 said...

'toons sez;
"Has MWH been convicted in Florida or just been accused?"
Does it matter? Would you trust a brain surgeon to operate on you (and you really should seek one) if he was "accused" of killing a few folks? Wouldn't be better to use one with a little better record? Aren't you just a tensy bit interested in the past events ("break-in...stolen computer, for one?)of MWH in Los Osos?

franc4 said...

Mike sez;
"could someone compare Warren Jensen's professional legal degrees"
...that's the first sensible thing you have ever written!!!!!....only I would take it a little further, like, did he pass the bar? Is he really a lawyer? Did he ever pass a reading efficiency test? Does he really understand the word "conflict"....since he is obviously in conflict....big time!

Aaron said...

Franc4 brings up an interesting point.

Let's work with Richard's premise for a second. The US is a nation based upon law, not self-appointed strongmen exercising their wills as dictated by their particular ethics.

Gibson has projected his ethical views very clearly. He made it his personal initiative to limit public comment on Los Osos wastewater because he felt that it was unethical for people to speak repetitively in blocks, which in turn would impair board business.

Gibson was the one who made personal judgment calls on regulating Los Osos public comment.

In our government, we see a lot of imposition of personal ethics from all sides.

Sewertoons said...

Gibson has done nothing illegal.

It amazes me that in vociferously defending their right to speak, and by nattering on and on endlessly from the same old viewpoint with repetitive "information," the aggrieved speakers are entirely clueless as to their negative psychological effect on others. To illustrate with two recently over-chewed topics, gravity proponents and defenders of Paavo barely needed any speakers at all to support their viewpoints. When these people speak, they don't club their listeners into insensibility with unnecessary words, which is a far more persuasive technique. Remember Commissioner Christianson's loud NO when Chair Christie tried to get step back in at the last hearing?

Aaron said...

I don't think anyone can say, "Gibson has done nothing illegal." How do you know? Are you his secretary?

I e-mailed him regarding public comment and he had Jensen forward me his correspondence, which turned out to be a lengthy, legal justification for the restrictions. Did Gibson act within the law to limit public testimony on Los Osos? Yes. Was it right? I don't think so. With a $150+ million project in the works, I think the abundance of public comment comes with the territory.

See, public comment hasn't always resulted in constantly repetitive information. Are you going to have aggravated speakers? Of course, but their opinions and research aren't invalid.

We're at a political crossroads because the negative psychological effect on others can be invoked by letting aggravated people speak AND liming their time to speak -- so what you do? Remind the people to set the tone of civil discourse. There is no harm in doing that.

From what I've seen, the negative psychological effects come from leading by example. Since the BOS clamped down on Los Osos public comment during meetings that did not have the monthly project update, there has been an upswing of vitriolic comments against those speakers and threats have been made anonymously -- and in sweet irony, the "UltraOpposition" mannerisms that Barbara Wolcott mentioned in her book have been utilized by the very same people she's interviewed. Here is the finest example of projection.

Sewertoons said...

"Gwen" Taylor is spelled Gewynne.

Mike said...

...keep trying Aaron, your opinions on whether the BOS or the County Counsel are doing everything as "legally" as you personally would question, only shows your lack of both education and experience... Try researching the legal steps the pre-recall CSD took in obtaining permits and funding...then compare to anything the post-recall team obtained... of course they did obtain the temporary bankruptcy protection...

No Aaron, there is not a conspiracy to take away the civil liberties from the "UltraOpposition"... but the community has grown tired of the endless attempts to misdirect and nitpic the County Process... If a conspiracy exists, it's those who seek to derail any project or as Al Barrow has stated, he can tie any project up in court forever...

...but Aaron, let's call a spade a spade... you are not interested in actually solving the Los Osos sewer process, simply want to drag it out for so long that no one can afford to live here...

Alon Perlman said...

S-tunes; step should be CAPITALISED to STEP, and a MWH conviction in Florida would not translate to (legal) relevance, unless the Project managers were the same or the conviction went up to the level of executive level, or that it was found to be Company policy. Welcome to the CAPITALIZED society, isn’t it Capital? We are just like China.

Alon Perlman said...

We are just like China, c’eptin the Nation of Law stuff (they don’t suffer from that delusion). Who you gonna blame? It is what it is.

Re MWH;
I don't like the idea of MWH building the Sewer, but to remove them from the bidding process without hard substantial evidence would be ILLEGAL, in fact foolhardy, even if something came up significantly more substantial. (Which we would know about, because Mr. Jensen would be even more obtuse in his response). MWH would sue the county, and they (MWH) still have deep pockets. Example;
Bechtel, Chaney’s people was awarded the Iraq plum, without vetting but it is fairly likely they would have gotten it anyway, if the process followed bids (real oversight would had been nice also). Because they are Buh-Buh-Buh-BIG, and have Middle East experience. (House of Saud = House of Bush.) And yes, many more Americans have died and will die in Iraq defending the interests of a multi-national Corporation, than died on 9/11.

Alon Perlman said...

Re "what is or isn't in the complaint"; has been discussed on this blog ad nauseum. And occasionally with very specific information. In fact it has been established in this very comment’s section that these 1,300 pages do not add up to “comprehensive”. If part of the strategy was to undersubmit relevant documents and oversubmit tangentials, then it has been pretty affective.
The lesson of Los Osos, is that no one learned the lesson of Los Osos.
(Also copyrighted for “Vietnam”, “Beirut”, “ Afghanistan”, “Iraq”, “South America”, and most of the atlas)
Which brings us to the Lessons of the past;
Franc4- I don't know who you are so I don't know what level of participation you have had, or where and how unfiltered you get your information. Maybe we stood side by side over a period of years, at times, saying much the same thing to the State and region 3 Waterboards, the various manifestations of the LOCSD, County Coastal Commission, BOS, Planning commission. In which case you and I are in a very, very small group, as far as getting RAW Info.(not a clique, since I have chosen to work mostly independently).
My direct observation of past submissions (which I READ) prepared by or supported by Lisa is Document Overkill (Example; 50+ page submission from Lisa as CSD director to the waterboard regarding the Basin Plan Changes (Affecting 4 counties and NOT the prohibition zone.)).
I was a candidate for the CSD and have closely observed the CSD through the critical eyes of someone who potentially would have to assume the AWSOME responsibility of representing this entire community. Ideology doesn’t cut it, at that level. Proponents of this or that, are a dime a dozen. Only a consideration of all factors, including Human factors as viewed directly AND through multiple filters, can diminish the UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES of ACTIONS TAKEN.

Alon Perlman said...

Correction Re; 3:21 PM post; "Mr. Jensen would be even more obtuse in his response"
TO; "Mr. Jensen would be even more obfuscateory in his response."
obfuscate
/obfuskayt/
• verb make unclear or unintelligible.
— DERIVATIVES obfuscation noun obfuscatory adjective.
— ORIGIN Latin obfuscare ‘darken’.
Used in a sentence; Dr. Hilly Lavine’s advice, was to “Always eschew obfuscation”.

Sewertoons said...

There is no "Caesar's Wife" for Los Osos. Anyone and everyone will be smeared no matter who they are. If the Dalai Lama headed up the project, he too would be accused of something. It is the Los Osos way.

Mike said...

Hang in there 'toons... The mad dogs of Los Osos are still frothing at the mouth because they don't like seeing themselves shown to be the real problem... They are trying to spread blame to all they disagree with... Compromise was never in their vocabulary... When they couldn't have their way they invented nasty tales about the brave men and women who worked to create the only sewer project ever approved in Los Osos...

They still have to blame those who have to make the decisions... There never will be a perfect enough sewer for these extremists... but in the end, there will be a sewer whether we can afford it or not... The CalTrans crowd will slink out of town with tax paid transfers, the mental patients will be taken away and those who can't wait will have strokes and be buried in the Los Osos Valley Memorial Park...but you and I will be stuck paying for the failures of those failures...

Aaron said...

You're always going to face opposition in whatever you do, but to reduce the blunt force trauma of criticism, it's best to keep your actions, as a public official, transparent.

Paavo has yet to dedicate any time to explaining his previous working relationships with MWH. If Jensen personally cleared Ogren of any wrongdoings, Ogren should, in good faith, step forward and talk about his affiliations and address misconceptions.

I think most of us can agree that the complaint was a document overkill and the organization could have been a lot better, but at the same time, the complaint serves one purpose -- and it serves that purpose well -- which is the fact that MWH have been in the Los Osos scene for several years. There may be other contractors that could provide cheaper, more effective collection and treatment components and/or have more experience dealing with gravity-hybrid systems (that would reduce the overall cost greatly).

Mike said...

Horseshit... Aaron you are such an immature little boy, you don't realize or recognize the damage Liza has done and is still attempting to do... The sooner the BOS see thru her smoke and attempts to shift blame to someone else, the sooner the process will get back on track... Believe me Aaron, if she thought she needed to, she would throw you under the bus as fast as she could...

Please don't continue to insult this community with your opinions that "maybe" some other miracle solution will come over the hill on the back of another snakeoil sales man... Let's let the professionals in the County do their job without the continual "public" input... Hell, there are so many wantabe legal/engineering "experts" in Los Osos, it's a wonder there isn't a UC school of sewer law on the Tri-W site right now... it sure would have been cheaper and faster to build...

Sewertoons said...

I agree Mike. If they had 80 acres of ponds given to them with a STEP/STEG system powered by solar, all for free, they would complain about that too. They have really lost their power to influence anymore, having protested a few thousand times too many.

Mike said...

I would hope that Lisa's "complaint" would have been the last of those "public" protests, but we can be fairly assured that they won't quit crusading until the State Water Board is vanquished, then the FED EPA, SLO County and every one of us who they disagree with... It may not end until a government agency haul a few of them into court and then into jail... I really hope that is sooner than when Al goes bezerk a fatal time...

Aaron said...

Lynette, how would you know if "they" would complain about it? You've been so many assumptions within the last week, I lost count.

I am reminded of something...

Paavo Ogren likes to play with the rhetorical device, "Some people..." using a strawman. For example: "Some people, who don't support our project, believe that polluting the bay is alright, but it's not," leveling the opposition down to a group of irrational sewer politicos.

Way too many logical fallacies in this conversation.

Watershed Mark said...

Too many liars as well.
Tell us why you lie, MIKE little mouse and sorry, I forgt his last name Lynette.

It is obvious you two peas in a pod are feeling the logical conclusion coming soon.

Watershed Mark said...

But the, uh, truth of the matter is that I'm just interested, you know, in, uh, Principles of Modern Banking and, History of Piracy.
Nor would I ask of any fellow American, in defense of his freedom, that which I would not gladly give myself: my life before my liberty!

It’s like that…

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse, why can't you report your Florida findings?

Alon Perlman said...

Well, I scouted out an alternate location, just in case it needs to be moved again. Posted a scan of it on youtube.
(Seriously-Do not underestimate Al Barrow's power to sabotage a Project. (any project, including ones he supports) and I've spent more 'quality' time with him than anybody posting to this blog)

Advantages of the new location;
No Agricultural issues
Viewshed-Only a few Horse riders will be affected.
Environmentally degraded area.
By-passes any Bay-Estuarian outfall issues.
No noise or construction issues.
No Road impacts.
Distance appears to be closer to Broderson than Giacomazzi. (Rough calculation based on the distance calculator in the http://www.lowwp-eir.net/lowwpeir/ )
Wait till the camera pans to the South. Montania de Orina will be on your left. I apologise for the quality, it was windy.
Alternative Sewer Location HERE


Word verification; tangstif

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez:"It amazes me that in vociferously defending their right to speak, and by nattering on and on endlessly from the same old viewpoint with repetitive "information," the aggrieved speakers are entirely clueless as to their negative psychological effect on others."

Sorta like a lot of "commenters" on this blogsite, eh?

Aaron said...

It's a classic case of projection.

Sewertoons said...

Yes, but blogging is a bit different.

No one is forced to read any of this, whereas at a BOS meeting, your audience - the Supes, and anyone from other county areas with other topics that need addressing (TV viewers have a mute button and a channel changer) must wait while Los Osos speakers off-load their sewer grievances and their upset that they are only allowed to speak at certain times on the topic. While a parent can order a kid not to whine endlessly about the STEP/STEG system that they didn't get for Christmas, the Supes are limited by the Brown Act and the people not involved must listen to the repetition. Think this tactic has won any brownie points? If you yell the loudest and the most often you will be heard?

If you refer to a one-topic writer on this blog, you must be referring to the one who repeats himself endlessly using certain phrases to introduce any of the two or so topics he addresses. You all know which phrases I mean. And you all know who I am talking about.

I challenge any of the rest of you to say you enjoy reading those phrases over and over to speak up right here to say so. Your silence on the topic of enjoying the cited poster's postings will say a lot.

Aaron said...

You're adding exceptions to the rule now?

No one is forced to watch the meetings either. Even if you're at the actual meetings, nobody is telling you, "Listen to this person speak!" You're free to stand up from your seat and leave the room, but the problem is just that. People have been tuning out of what is being said. Instead, they complain about how repetitive other people are when -- if you ask them -- they won't even remember what people have said at the podium.

As far as the claim that public officials have to listen to repetition, you're assuming that they actually are, which is funny. You're not taking into consideration that they can daydream or simply pretend that they are.

For someone who is an avid note-taker, you haven't provided a shred of evidence showing that you listen to people. For all I know, you could be drawing doodles of Oxycotin bottles.

Nevertheless, I accept your challenge.

I like when people repeat themselves because I appreciate those who are assertive in their beliefs. If people are repeating "phrases" over and over, that's completely fine with me because I respect their right to free speech -- and when someone respectfully disagrees with me, I'm more than ready to have a conversation even if the material is repetitive.

That's how public officials should operate. They should raise the level of their tolerance and engage in a discussion. Yes, public meetings aren't meant to be open debates, but town hall meetings are. We need to have more of them.

Sewertoons said...

You think that the county staff and Supes have not engaged in discussion? I see why, you haven't always show up to the County's town hall meetings or at Bruce Gibson's office hours either. Paavo, Mark, John have all attended those at varying times and there have been many, many discussions. You could have participated but I guess you chose not to.

Since the Supervisors have asked questions of staff on speakers' comments, I don't know why you think that they might not be listening.

What shred am I supposed to provide for you Aaron? I could repeat the STEP and magic sand mantras verbatim I am sure as I have heard them so many times, but would really rather not repeat them. I don't agree and have posted my responses on this blog and others.

Aaron says:
" People have been tuning out of what is being said."

Gee, I wonder why?

Aaron says:
"I like when people repeat themselves because I appreciate those who are assertive in their beliefs."

Unless of course they support Bruce, Paavo or Taxpayers' Watch. Then you prefer to tell them how they are wrong. I'm glad to hear that you are a fan of wsm. It suits you.

The speakers I refer to: Apparently no one has clued them in that being rude, repetitive or abusive wins alliances or conversions to their opinions. Their parents did them no favors to not curb their speech as children, and here they are, full of themselves as to how valuable every utterance they make is. Maybe someday they will notice that we all don't feel that way.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

Unless and until my questions are answered I will keep asking them.

Here are two that will continue to show up on Ann's Land unless and until she says different.

Why wasn't vacuum collection studied in Paavo "If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive, then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away" Ogren's $7,000,000.00 incomplete study of "alternatives?"

Why do you lie?




Why do you think that ignoring the question about your lying will make it go away?

If you haven’t figured it out by now it won’t

Aaron said...

Lynette,

What's the difference between going to an office hours meeting and communicating by e-mail? I've e-mailed them when I had something I wanted to say. Now you're saying that since I "chose" to not participate in office hours, I'm... what now? I'm not following.

Bruce Gibson's office hours consist of a U-shaped banquet table. There is only room for a few people to attend. Some people show up, many don't. I'm not seeing you ostracizing those who don't show. I haven't seen LeGros there (but he did explain to my why he doesn't attend them). I don't see Hensley there (he feels the only way to communicate is through lawsuits).

The times I did show up at office hours meeting, Gibson said to me -- quite a few times in fact -- "I'm not going to respond to that comment." Even if Gibson and the rest of the board is listening, they're not going to respond and if they care to respond, they'll use their power to belittle. I think that's unprofessional.

The most neutral the board has been is with their "out of office" replies: "Thank you for your comments, but I am out of town on important business." That's nothing more than someone in retail saying to you, "Have a nice day!" as you're leaving the store. The acknowledgment that you made a comment doesn't automatically mean they listened to it.

I'm not a public official, but I can tell you that everyone has something unique that they're bringing to the table. Some of them will continue to harp about STEP/STEG and that's fine, but others have different points that don't necessarily fall in the "repetitive" category. The problem I have with you is that you're casting this blanket statement, saying everyone repeats the STEP/STEG mantra and it's not worth it to repeat it verbatum. Don't bother.

Can you tell me about the other concerns that people have in Los Osos? I haven't gone to any BOS meetings lately, but even I found some comments that were not in lockstep with the, "I want STEP/STEG!" comments you're referring to.

Your move.

Watershed Mark said...

Why wasn't vacuum studied?

Watershed Mark said...

Why was STEP/STEG removed from the Design Build Process?

Watershed Mark said...

Why did Paavo "If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive, then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away" Ogren remove STEP/STEG from the Design Build Process?

Mike said...

Have YOU asked Paavo YOUR question directly...??? If not, why not...??? What are you afraid of...???

If he answered, then please publish HIS response...

Sewertoons said...

Aaron,

The town hall meetings allowed you talk time face-to-face with County staff. It was a good place to ask questions and get immediate answers.

No one has ever been turned away from a Bruce Gibson meeting, there are extra chairs and sometimes they are unfolded and put to use. I'm not sure what the problem is with the room.

Not everyone has the job freedom to attend those meetings - are you unable to attend due to job constraints?

The comments that Gibson did not respond to - I do remember there might have been one or two? Can you refresh my memory - what were they? I recall they were something like, "When did you stop beating your wife." Along those lines.


If those who don't show up blogged, or made complaints to me in person, I would say to them as I have said to you here. Why do you think that I haven't?

You say of the Supes, "they'll use their power to belittle." Maybe that is just your perception? Do you deserve to be?

What should "out-of-office" replies say - aren't they just polite information?

I made a generalization as I had no intent to write a book in a blog comment. So?

Comments of late have been on Jensen's tardiness, Paavo's alleged bid-rigging with MWH, basin overdraft, the ISJ, the proposed HCP, not wanting the graves of military veterans used as a reason to stop the project at Giacomazzi, the cost of the project -- is that enough?

Aaron said...

There were town hall meetings that covered the recent 218 assessment vote. Half of them were televised, the other half wasn't. Half of the ones that were televised included pre-selected questions from the audience that were hand-selected by Gibson himself. People weren't given the opportunity -- at most of the town halls -- to speak.

Someone asked Gibson, "When did you stop beating your wife?" Sounds like Michael Jones went to one of the office hours. At the last office hours meeting I attended, I asked Gibson why he felt compelled to antagonize STEP/STEG supporters -- and I stated that he failed to make the case as to why STEP/STEG was inappropriate at the April 7th meeting.

I've sometimes wondered if it was my perception, but I'll use an anecdote, which indicates why my beliefs go a little bit further than perception.

Remember when Keith Wimer was asked by Gibson -- I'm paraphrasing -- "Are you a hydrogeologist?" and Wimer said no? Well, in March 2009, Wimer submitted to the record the LOSG basin plan to the board and he said during public comment, "I am not a certified water expert but I have done research on the subject [of saltwater intrusion]." If Gibson was really listening, he would have known that Wimer is not a hydrogeologist. By asking the question if he was one, he was attempting to discredit the information.

Questioning the credibility of someone with expansive testimony is a common legal tactic meant to discredit the speaker.

Look, if you're going to make generalizations, don't say them or else you're going to look real stupid.

And no, sadly, that's not enough. I think you should read The ROCK more.

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez"Anyone and everyone will be smeared no matter who they are."

mike sez" Aaron you are such an immature little boy, you don't realize or recognize the damage Liza has done and is still attempting to do... The sooner the BOS see thru her smoke and attempts to shift blame to someone else, the sooner the process will get back on track... Believe me Aaron, if she thought she needed to, she would throw you under the bus as fast as she could..."

You mean, like that?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

I am happy you can't live up to your words.
It makes my work easier.

Per your suggestion:

From: Mark Low [mailto:mark@nowastewater.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 7:48 AM
To: pogren@co.slo.ca.us
Subject: LOWWP Collection Alternative Study

Greetings Paavo,

Would you please illuminate why “vacuum collection” was never studied by your consulting engineer?

After hearing your words: “if there is a technology that is significantly less expensive, then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away” during an August 2007 BOS meeting Prior to the 218 vote, I and others were led to believe you intended to actually intended look at and study technology that is less expensive than the leaky energy intensive conventional gravity you RFQ’d.

I and others will appreciate your prompt response.

Regards,

Mark

T- 480.834.7975


Any bets on whether this public employee responds in a meaningful manner?

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

You forgot to include "your lying" as a subject of discussion.

Why do you lie?

Mike said...

Gee mark... after months of your blather, we find out you have never asked Paavo that question...

You really are a non-player in the Los Osos waste water treatment solution...

Watershed Mark said...

From: Mark Low [mailto:mark@nowastewater.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:29 AM
To: pogren@co.slo.ca.us
Subject: LOWWP Collection Alternative Study -Corrected Copy


Greetings Paavo,

Would you please illuminate why “vacuum collection” was never studied by your consulting engineer?

After hearing your words: “if there is a technology that is significantly less expensive, then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away” during an August 2007 BOS meeting Prior to the 218 vote, I and others were led to believe that you actually intended to look at and study technology that is significantly less expensive than the leaky energy intensive conventional gravity you RFQ’d.

I and others will appreciate your prompt response.

Regards,

Mark

T- 480.834.7975

Now if only Paavo could get his work "corrected."

Aaron said...

Toonces sez, "Anyone and everyone will be smeared no matter who they are."

Like this?

"...sorry Aaron, you seldom have listened to anyone opposed to the continual posting of smoke screens... ..and you sure like to "guess" who anyone is who hold opposing view points... you really are an wantabe obstructionist..."
(3:53 PM, August 22, 2009)

"Grow up Aaron... It's sad watching you trying to act grown up when you don't have a clue; wantabe lawyer or journalistic critic..."
(2:25 PM, August 19, 2009)

"You just can't accept still being just a little boy, can you Aaron... Your childish responses in some silly attempt to divert honest folks questioning the obstructionism certainly show how immature you are... Richard certainly pegged you correctly...!!!"
(2:44 PM, August 19, 2009)

"In case the rest of you couldn't understand Aaron's intoxicated drivel..."
(7:47 PM, August 02, 2009)

"Have a Q&F day you 2, try not to burn your house down..."
(12:40 PM, August 03, 2009)

"Did you graduate from a high school...??? certainly no higher education, although you seem to get "high" quite often... now go back to your mommy's porch and have some warm milk...."
(1:09 PM, August 03, 2009)

"you are a little boy... time you woke up to the community who doesn't trust you...!!!"
(8:14 PM, August 03, 2009)

"You really are a screwed up little boy...

Is that your reason for fighting any authority...??? Hitler scared you that much in your parents wet dreams...??? Or have you puffed too much pot or meth....???? You really should seek help because you aren't in this world..."
(8:59 PM, August 03, 2009)

"Aaron...you keep on proving what an idiot you are... "
(11:02 AM, August 04, 2009)

"...hahahaha... you really are a child.... time for your nap..."
(12:52 PM, August 04, 2009)

And that's just the month of August. For these examples, I intentionally omitted the posts he's made toward others. There's about two years worth of material that is archived.

Sewertoons said...

Aaron,

What you missed about the town halls was the informal discussion part before the formal meeting began. There were various tables headed by staff and vendors where you could ask questions, personally, one on one.

I don't agree with your assessment of Gibson's conduct toward S/S supporters. For one thing, the voters voted down STEP/STEG. When you realize how much cost to that system would fall on to the individual owners, that decision should be understandable. To keep beating up staff and Gibson over the S/S decision makes these people look like they simply cannot hear or that they feel they must insist on having their own way as they somehow are more important/knowledgeable than everyone else and that MUST be recognized.

Wimer has no degrees in the field of the information that he puts out. He may have done a lot of internet study, but this isn't the same as having a degree on the subject. That is valid information for the public to know.

I'm not too worried if I look stupid in your eyes. I have read every ROCK put out. I just don't agree with the conclusions therein, but find it to be interesting reading to educate myself on certain viewpoints.

Watershed Mark said...

Aaron,

Several of MIKE little mouse's comments were made after he couldn't keep his word about not posting anymore...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

Please tell us why YOU LIE.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry I forgot his last name Lynette,

As Aaron pointed out, what gets posted here will stand as long as Ann allows it.
I posted your post about Mr. Dean (sorry, I forgot his last name), just so you couldn't skulk away by deleting it.

The heat of battle reveals character as well as it develops it. Why are you so happy with yours?
Your lying is squarely on the record so get it over with already, fess up and have some crow.

Why do YOU LIE?

Aaron said...

Lynette,

You wrote on my old blog something along the lines of, "I will refute your experts [on The ROCK]," but you never followed through. I don't understand. Forgive me for the shameless self-promotion, but I've heard a lot of people say, "I disagree," when it comes to the paper and they will make statements that directly contradict the material presented in there.

As I said to Gordon Hensley's father at the Tri-W groundbreaking in 2005, "You can disagree, but you can also be wrong."

Please be careful when you mention the word "vote." The community survey was just that, a survey, a poll (more like a push-poll in my opinion). It's also the very same survey, which showed that an "overwhelming majority" supported out of town or the edge of town, which TW forcefully rejects. You really can't pick and choose here.

Also, to be fair, I really wasn't talking about Gibson's attitude toward S/S supporters. I'm talking about his attitude towards those who oppose the County's plan and their interpretation of the design-build process. One of his campaign pledges was to "respect every individual’s rights and opinions. Every citizen deserves respect and fair treatment from their government."

One thing I know for sure: Gibson has been treating my friends poorly when they've been completely respectful to them in return -- never once asking, "When did you stop beating your wife?" Gibson has personally treated me poorly when I know that if I were to be in his shoes, I'd be respectful to everyone, jokes aside.

Going back to town halls, those town hall meetings were based on the 218 assessment. The assessment posed the question, "Do you want to be assessed for a sewer?" NOT "Do you approve of what we're going to do after the assessment?" Quite a few things happened after the assessment. There were no town hall meetings to address those things.

Not only were there no town hall meetings, several months later after the 218, the BOS -- who proudly declared the results of the 218 a "mandate" -- invoked restrictions of public comment at BOS meetings, the only public venue that allows people to ask questions and discuss issues on public record. People can't talk about the wastewater project much at LOCSD meetings because AB2701 transferred that responsibility to the County.

The discussion has not been open. Office hours are off the record, off the cuff. Anything that goes down in those meetings ultimately results in a "he said, she said" argument on the blogs -- and that's it. The conversation doesn't evolve from there.

Don't worry, Lynette. It's not me that you should be concerned about, it's the people reading what you're writing -- and soon enough, it will be on the record.

Watershed Mark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Watershed Mark said...

A “corrected copy” of Bruce’s and Paavo’s study of alternatives that includes a chapter on “vacuum collection” would go a long way towards making their study complete.
They can always simply dismiss it as they did STEP/STEG but at least the citizen’s who will be pay for the work would be getting a full and complete piece of work.

I LOVE LO!

From: Mark Low [mailto:mark@nowastewater.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 12:49 PM
To: BGibson@co.slo.ca.us
Cc: pogren@co.slo.ca.us
Subject: LOWWP Collection Alternative Study -Corrected Copy


Greetings Supervisor/Chairman Gibson,

In light of the current financial and economic circumstances that did not exist when the County began its work towards a sewer, this time around, I wondered if you could shed some light on “why vacuum collection was never studied” by Paavo’s sole source/no bid consulting engineer.

I will appreciate any insight you could share with me regarding what appears to be an oversight of a very viable technology that was not part of your $7,000,000.00 study of alternatives.

Respectfully yours,

Mark Low

From: Mark Low [mailto:mark@nowastewater.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:29 AM
To: pogren@co.slo.ca.us
Subject: LOWWP Collection Alternative Study -Corrected Copy


Greetings Paavo,

Would you please illuminate why “vacuum collection” was never studied by your consulting engineer?

After hearing your words: “if there is a technology that is significantly less expensive, then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away” during an August 2007 BOS meeting Prior to the 218 vote, I and others were led to believe that you actually intended to look at and study technology that is significantly less expensive than the leaky energy intensive conventional gravity you RFQ’d.

I and others will appreciate your prompt response.

Regards,

Mark

T- 480.834.7975

Watershed Mark said...

They can always simply dismiss it as they did STEP/STEG but at least the citizen’s who will be pay-ing for the work would be getting a full and complete piece of work.

I'm going to have to get an editor real soon...

Mike said...

Aaron... I do stand behind all of my opinions directed specifically toward you...!!!

...and to you and your buddy Mark, your reading comprehension is extremely poor... when did I say I was leaving and never coming back....???? Didn't I say that I was "fading away"...??? You may wish I was gone forever as you both don't seem to understand that this community finds you rather repulsive, arrogant and simply immature...!!!!! You just might be surprised that there are quite a few of this community who feel exactly like I do...but I think you are so caught up in nitpicing and agreeing with yourselves that you don't have a clue what the real community is thinking... This blog is not the definative word on the sewer that is coming....!!!!!!

As far as archiving any of this blog, it's not worth the computer memory space... This blog is not going to halt or design the coming Los Osos sewer....

I am on record as being in complete support of what ever and where ever the Los Osos sewer is decided on by the County... My preference being the Tri-W site for the central WWTF and the basic collection system as was legally designed and permitted.... I am totally opposed to the financial mismanagement, and probably illegal, dealings of the Schicker led CSD.... I am totally repulsed by the manner in which the recall was run and the lies by the extremists that tore apart this peaceful community.... I am totally opposed to the PZLDF theft of taxpayer funds from the CSD via an non-exististent "agreement"...

Do you need any further conversation to make that clear enough for you two....???????

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

Keep digging my little buddy, just keep digging.

Aaron said...

Toonces sez, "Anyone and everyone will be smeared no matter who they are."

Like this?

"this community finds you rather repulsive, arrogant and simply immature...!!!!!"
(12:58 PM, August 26, 2009)

"Yup, You might want to stand farther away from your "medicinal" weeds Aaron, you are trying to climb too high again..."
(6:29 PM, July 22, 2009)

"Go back and read the Laws and court decisions... all your parade of clowns, fat ladies and trolls have not been able to overturn the State or the County...and now you've lost the CSD again... [...] You still think this is a high school play yard where you can "call someone out"... what an immature moron you are...!!!"
(10:42 AM, July 26, 2009)

"F-U.... I don not trust you Aaron...!!!! You have no credibility, just a smart ass kid who chose to agitate in the recall..."
(2:53 PM, July 26, 2009)

"You'll still be parading the clowns and trolls and fat ladies, but the sewer will be constructed...!!!!"
(3:28 PM, July 26, 2009)

"I did indeed lower the level of my postings to the level of those who have, and still are, so nasty to the wonderful men and women who worked within the legal boundaries and restrictions of the CSD... I doubt they will ever understand..."
(7:13 PM, July 26, 2009)

"Simply look in a mirror and then follow your Drum Major and going postal, Mr. Al Barrow and the rest of the parade of clowns, fat ladies, cheerleaders and trolls..."
(6:00 AM, July 29, 2009)

"If they want to continue the parade, then they should expect characterizations such as clowns, fat ladies, overaged cheerleaders and trolls... afterall, they themselves were and still are, far worse in their attacks on the pre-recall Directors..."
(12:49 PM, July 29, 2009)

"I hope your impending stroke is indeed quick and you aren't left as a financial burden to the community... Q&F..."
(4:38 PM, July 03, 2009)

"Yes, all those clowns, ax grinding cheerleaders, snake oil sales persons, gossip columnists, wantabe PI's and fat ladies are the biggest jokes in SLO County..."
(9:50 AM, July 06, 2009)

"I'm sure glad you are such a role model for your kid, especially during his attempts to work through puberty... He seems to think that character assassination began with the pre-recall Directors... probably from listening to your phycobabble...and you continue to babble today...

Ed, you've never had a positive thought in your life... just a born loser who apparently revels in his silly attempts at muckraking... You Ed, are just one of the reasons this community finds the No Sewer Obstructionists to be so disgusting... but do keep up the smear tactic's, you're helping put Tri-W back as the most viable solution..."
(5:18 PM, July 06, 2009)

Mike said...

...guess the truth hurts in that you apparently don't like to see what the past Directors had to put up with prior to the recall... and you Aaron tried strutting around like you knew what you were talking about while attempting to discredit the Directors... There is also an archive full of the comments of extremists and anti-sewer folks that would more than out weigh all I could possible say...

Aaron said...

I only posted July. I could go through June and work my way backwards -- but then again, I have a life.

I think it would be a good exercise to do what I just did (with Mike) and quote everything I've said at CSD meetings. If anyone tried, I wouldn't be embarrassed at all. In fact, I would love to know how my opinions equate to the legitimacy of character assassinations and death threats thrown around by the "Dreamers."

I'm confident knowing that people like Mike will not step up to the plate. Instead, at my leisure, I'll continue to post Mike's comments -- and I won't have to say anything. I'll let the community decide whether those comments are warranted or not.

Mike said...

...wrong Aaron... You DON'T have anything to say...!!! but keep amusing and deluding yourself...

Have a truly nice day...

Aaron said...

You too.

Alon Perlman said...

********* Booooring Alert *********
Central California Region 3 Comment interest level Control Board has issued the following Alert;
Interest has fallen below sustainable levels due to over use of non-topic material.

"Keeping the words of California, interesting"

Alon Perlman said...

"Sewer Saga
Enters New
Chapter
By Jack Beardwood
The never-ending saga of the Los Osos sewer project is
entering a new chapter.
As expected, the County Planning Commission’s Aug.
13 approval of a permit to allow construction and operation
of a sewer system in Los Osos will be appealed.
Al Barrow of Citizens for Affordable and Safe
Environment (CASE) told The Bay News that they would
file an appeal before today’s deadline. "

Watershed Mark said...

“All of the alternatives should be on the table for
the design-build process,” he said.


At least someone understands what the process is design to accomplish.

Watershed Mark said...

"At least one person understands how the design build process is supposed to work."

Sewertoons said...

Aaron, do your homework. The EIR refutes your ROCK experts. Don't rely on MY word, which I'm sure you wouldn't. If I shortcutted and cited a few examples, you would cut me down for that, to quote you:

"Look, if you're going to make generalizations, don't say them or else you're going to look real stupid."

You are right - my word should not have been "vote." Here is a new one, "select." The community SELECTED GRAVITY in very impressive numbers. Unlike the VOTE for measure B - which with its own version of push/pull -- $100 out of town -- won with a 50.3%. A real landslide, that.

I'm not picking and choosing. Clearly I see the results for "out of town." But what remains to be seen is the cost of the new version of the project via the Planning Commission. We won't know the results until September 29 or after. Too bad we don't get to get to know until then. Tri-W may not look so bad after all, but then, it is a moot point. If people want more expensive, then they can have it.

Regarding the attitude of those who oppose the County's plan: Many are disrespectful. Clearly those people don't give any respect to Gibson, County staff or those many of us who SELECTED gravity.

Going to be at Mr. Gibson's meeting this afternoon? Would you like me to witness how he treats you and report back here?

The town halls covered ponds and pipe and a lot of topics.

When given the 218 vote, it was made very clear that the technology/location had not been chosen. People didn't vote on technology - just if they wanted to assess themselves to pay for a sewer. I'll bet you voted no.

I'm not concerned about what I write here. If I was, I wouldn't write.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote: "I'm not concerned about what I write here."

So why not tell us why YOU LIE?

Aaron said...

My, my, my. And I thought I was testy sometimes.

I have a quote from you here that says, "I will refute your experts." I believe you meant to say you were going to refute me, not the EIR.

The community didn't select gravity, 80% of that 34% sampling did. That makes 27% of the actual community who selected gravity in an optional survey.

I've seen Al Barrow's outbursts, I've seen Ben DiFatta ramble on about the board. Yes, many have been disrespectful, but that doesn't mean you should be, that doesn't mean "Mike" should be, and that most certainly means that Gibson should be.

Yes, I did vote no. Being assessed for a sewer -- that everyone within the actual basin should be assessed for -- that has a "blank-check" cost was a mistake. If I want to make an investment, I want to know how much money (in total) I'm going to be putting in. I want to know if that investment is going to yield benefits for me.

Sewertoons said...

Aaron says:
"That makes 27% of the actual community who selected gravity…"

And those of no opinion don't care which way it goes?

Yes, by all means, let's keep polluting. There is no agency other than the State who can build the thing if it covers everywhere. And then you would balk at that cost. It would make this project look like peanuts.

Leaving for the Bruce Gibson meeting. See you there?

Realistic1 said...

Aaron,

Those who don't vote cede to the majority who do. It's the American way.

Sewertoons said...

Nice to see you at the Gibson meeting Aaron. Your comments were very respectful and your apology to Mr. Gibson was well said. You contributed something to the meeting. But it looked like you were troubled or uncomfortable with Linde's comments. I was tired of hearing them again. Maybe you were too? The argumentative tone doesn't play that well the 4,735th time. Oh, thanks for the dig. Ouch.

Nice surprise visit by our dear snake oil salesman (no not you wsm, the other one). He sailed over to Paavo and Bruce when his time came to speak and plopped a weighty, spiral-bound tome down for each of them. I glanced through a copy and am very, very glad that I don't have to read it.

It was interesting that he did not appeal the Planning Commission's version of the project - maybe there was a name he was using other than his own? Oh wait - he is above the law - he doesn't have to. Silly me! Sixteen others did. Names you would recognize. Some complaints legit and others off the wall. Paavo got the information slightly after the appeals time limit closed from John Waddell back at home base. I think these will be posted on the County website, but don't quote me.

I wish the PC had just left it where the County preferred it. Obviously they were not going to go for Tri-W, my preferred spot, but Tonini made a good second choice. We will be facing lawsuits if the BOS agrees with the PC to put it at Giacomazzi. We have seen how delay causes the price to rise. Lucky us. Here we go again. Well, it is up to the Supes. Let's see how this plays out. Stay tuned for the tentative date to hear this, September 29.

Aaron said...

I needed a nice brisk walk to break the tension on here. I admit, the discourse on here got me heady, but after seeing Linde Owen, I thought, "Okay, maybe I should take a few steps back."

It wasn't the repetitiveness that got to me. It was Linde's tone. In response to her presentation, I just closed my eyes, took off my glasses and rubbed my forehead. I believe she could have stated her case better, that's all.

Tom is Tom. He does his thing. He leaves and the meeting continues. The only satisfaction I get from seeing him is that I hear the theme song from "Deliverance" running through my mind.

Yes, there were 16 appeals. I was slack-jawed when I heard the number. 16? That's a lot. I'm not going to comment on the merit of the appeals, but what I can say is that it's an excessive amount. It does lead to delays. Delays increase the cost. I'm not comfortable with how things are going on that front.

Sorry for the dig, but to be honest with you, I wasn't referring to you. I looked at you, but I wasn't referring to you. I looked at you because I suspect you know the others who... well, tend to be a bit on the wild side when discussing things on here.

It feels good to be respectful.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote: "Yes, by all means, let's keep polluting."

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

There is no scientific proof that septic tanks are polluting.
When are you going to prove what is being polluted?

Why do YOU LIE?

Watershed Mark said...

WHereas bell and spigot sewerage will pollute raw untreated wastewater into your drinking water aquifer.

Watershed Mark said...

There is no scientific proof that septic tanks are polluting, in the PZ.

Raw wastewater leaking from a bell and spigot is considered spillage and that is "pollution."
No doubt about it.

Watershed Mark said...

There is no scientific proof that septic tanks are the source of nitrogen loading, in the PZ.

Third time is the charm.

Sewertoons said...

Aaron the reason I thought you were referring to me was, to quote you,

"Don't worry, Lynette. It's not me that you should be concerned about, it's the people reading what you're writing -- and soon enough, it will be on the record."

But that's OK, although I don't know what you meant by that. If anyone considers a blog a record, it is out there right now.

I hear the cowboy song "Arizona Killer" when I see Murphy, but "Deliverance" works as BG music rather well. Murphy would probably take offense at either.

Aaron said...

Lynette,

Office hours does not go on public record.

Hopefully what I said will have some effect so I don't have to recite what people have said on here and in other places.

Alon Perlman said...

Did anyone look and review what was submitted to the PC? 4 meetings? I submitted 3 things but 2 didn't make it into the Electronic record, still need to check if it's in the Offricial paper copy)
Makes this blog (comments section)look like a lesson in susinct berevity.
repeat after repeat. I call it Bum-rushing the process. I'll post a link to County PC Agenda-Letters, at a future date.
Anyhoo, at LOCAC last night, 16 candles were mentioned by Supervisor Gibson, and Gadget Murphey pulled out a tome called "Blue Carpet". Apparently Murphey can make discharge at the source safe. (and a magic wand that makes the waterboard go away).

Well looks like Lynette and Aaron are agreeing to partly agree and the news i posted isn't new, but the LOCAC meeting will be part of the public record and another "Rashomon", where each witness sees a different truth.

Aaron said...

I do agree with Lynette, not partly.

I just think we have different philosophical approaches to handling the County. That's all.

Mike said...

I'd like to thank all of you sewer obstructionists, and especially include the 16, for assuring the community that I won't have to pay for a sewer in my lifetime......

Sewertoons said...

Mike - one appeal was NOT by an obstructionist - but by someone very sane and concerned about our bottom dollar. That report gave rational points why the project should be moved back to Tri-W.

As for the others - some were from residents/a business (the cemetery) near the site the PC chose. I can't blame those people one bit for protesting that. If they had any use for it (they don't) or could hook up to it (they can't) -- then it might be different.

The rest however - I can only imagine. I'd bet money that some attempt to insert STEP/STEG back into the process. I'll be happy to obstruct that myself. NO WAY will I support THAT coming back. I'll raise a toast with champagne when that tank is emptied for that last time.

Churadogs said...

Toonces sez:"I'd bet money that some attempt to insert STEP/STEG back into the process. I'll be happy to obstruct that myself. NO WAY will I support THAT coming back. "

Here's where the hypocrisy gets laughingly stunning. "Anti Sewer Obstructionists" are evil, disgusting people who must be stopped at all costs because they want a system DIFFEENT THAN THE ONE I WANT."

And to get the system I WANT, I will protest, appeal, block, lobby, and file lawsuits, but that doesn't make me an evil Anti Sewer Obstructionist. No, no, that makes me a citizen fighting for my rights and working within the system and Process.

M said...

Dang'it Ann, you beat me to the punch. I was going to say we've come full circle now with sewertoons promising to become an obstructionist if she doesn't get her way.
Why wasn't vacuum studied?
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

Ann, you really believe you are the one with the only correct solution....

Well Ms. Citizen of the Decade, WE, the community did elect several good folks over several years to select a waste water treatment system, to purchase the sites and to begin construction... BUT then a few of you "citizens fighting for YOUR rights" went beyond YOUR rights and lied your way through a recall and NEVER had an alternative solution... just YOUR rights...and the hell with MY rights... but you don't understand that do you...!!!!! You would rather steal from the taxpayers and derail any plan because it somehow will never suit YOUR Plan...!!! You don't give a damn that the good citizens of Los Osos came together and actually designed a very workable plan... but again, because YOU didn't get YOUR way, you got your feather ruffled in some righteous indignation because it wasn't YOUR Plan...

Well Ann, what started as a community sewer has become a test of "Citizen's Rights"... It is truly sickening to have watched a small band of extremists who are so willing to obstruct a sewer and quite frankly, ANY issue, just for the thrill of protesting and obstructing...and all in the name of "Citizen Right's"...

Let's not continue the charade of "Citizen's Rights"... It's "MY Rights override YOUR Rights", I don't even have to have to be right or wrong, as long as I work within the "System", I can run over you and do what ever I please...

We will probably not have a sewer in our lifetime thanks to this sewer war and test of YOUR Rights to run over everyone you disagree with, but the other "citizens" outside Los Osos are fighting back... They don't want our crap, they don't need our crap...They actually believe they have rights also and are telling Los Osos to build the sewer in Los Osos...

But thanks Ann, for being so truthful and forthright in cheering on YOUR Rights before the Rights of the whole Community...

Too bad you have never seen the big picture, but then you would never want change no matter that it would be for the good of the entire community... YOU would rather listen to the mental cases and the snake oil sales...

YOU could never come up with a solution, so you chose to fight for YOUR Rights and the hell with everyone else...

M said...

Wow.
Sincerly, M

Aaron said...

... and people complain that I'm repetitive?

M said...

mikes comment of "elect several good folks over several years to select a waste water treatment system, to purchase the sites and to begin construction" is disturbing. Did these fine folks you are talking about also cancel a project that was ready to go at about one third of the cost that your fine people came up with?
One could look at it as though these were the "no sewer people." Remember, sewertoons has already gone on record as obstructing anything other than gravity for collection.
Sincerely, M

M said...

sewertoons, do you happen to know how many houses will have to use a pump to get to their gravity system?
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

M, I believe it was around 220 houses. It was 205 or so with the old CSD's project.

There was never a project that was a third of the cost, that was fiction by a contractor who left off enough elements to make it sound that way, that's all. But the spin doctors sure got a lot of mileage out of that, didn't they?

Aaron, I don't believe you are the repetitive one, it is wsm, wouldn't you agree?

Not true M. The BOS and County staff has selected gravity and up until that point I was willing to let it fall either way, without protest if my always preferred technology, gravity was not chosen. I didn't say I wouldn't try to be persuasive for gravity, but I would NOT file any protests or lawsuits. It STEP was chosen, so be it. But now that gravity is chosen THIS FAR ALONG IN THE PROCESS, you bet I am going to fight for that. The BOS made it very clear that they were not going to reconsider, so to fight that now just throws giant rocks on the path to getting anything done. Nice how the 50.3% vote -- gained on lies was OK with the No-Sewer, Move-The-Sewer crowd was legit and thrown in our faces at every turn, but now that the survey has come back HEAVILY in support of gravity -- this is somehow a misrepresentation of what people want.

M said...

The survey which got us Tri-W was written by the same people that wrote the survey you are referring to. The current survey asked us to talk them out of gravity.That survey also listed Tri-W as an option. Too many links and bias's in that survey to give a fair sampling. Surveys are worth crap as far as I am concerned in that they are easily manipulated to lean to one side or the others point of view.
Other than maybe a little of your own sacrifice what if the other system was chosen?
I believe I might be one of those 220 you speak of. So I guess I sacrifice a little as well? Would I have already have been notified that I would have to use a pump? I have not to date been notified of that.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

Vacuum was studied M, it just had so many flaws for this area, it dropped out early in the process. Why you are so willing to believe any snakeoil salesman's assertions is interesting. But I bet it has more to do with mistrusting the County from that bad old days that the County of now than believing the salesman.

There was one citizen, a smart one who understands engineering -- who was pro-vacuum for quite a while in this process. When he learned that the salesman had misrepresented the figures as to feasibility of lift, he dropped that idea quickly. Vacuum as proposed by the salesman would have been cheaper. Vacuum as constructed in reality, would not.

I can see why some people mistrust government generally speaking - I have myself on specific occasions. But to be so willing to trust salesmen - not people living in the area so that you know their trustworthiness and can determine that they are truthful - is amazing to me. They are trying to get you to BUY something. That is THEIR motive, not what is best for the community, although that WILL BE and IS one of their ARGUMENTS to convince you to buy.

But then there is also the outward show of trusting salesmen to be able to use their supposed "better" technology as a rock to throw at the County process - or rather ANY process that looks like it might result in a sewer.

Aaron said...

I was referring Mike's comments, not WSM. I think Mark knows about the repetition. He knows where I stand on that issue.

The fact of the matter is that I don't see the "good versus evil" theme as being relevant anymore. I only see what's true and false.

To put it bluntly, I don't see STEP/STEG coming back on the table. It's gravity. Lynette and I may disagree on the methodology behind the County decisions, but we both understand that gravity is here to stay. Gravity has been the County's choice since day one. Appeals and lawsuits are not going to convince the powers that be to redo the design-build process.

A good idea would be to focus on supporting a strong water conservation plan, looking at how we could keep the monthly costs down through grants and stimulus funds -- and make sure that we can keep the costs down without the delays. We have to play smart now and by playing smart, that means we have to cut down on the lawsuits except if there's a clear and compelling reason for filing one.

And hey, I like people who have a fighting spirit, but don't pull a PZLDF on us and file a lawsuit -- based on a hundred suspicions and misconceptions -- that drains people's life savings. And guess what? The money that people are donating to these lawsuits is also money that could go to paying for the sewer.

Sewertoons said...

M,

Official notification has not happened as as of yet, there is no project. As to where those grinder pumps go - were you on the list for the last project? You might be on this list this time too, I don't know.

Tri-W is only an option if the CCC recommends it - County has made it very clear that they will not. Putting it on the survey sealed its fate as it was voted down. Putting it on the survey made sense as it has so far been the only project permitted and started.

Think what you like about the survey, but plenty of people were hoodwinked by $100/out-of-town and voted for Measure B. How do you recommend people express their opinion then? Informed voting/opinions isn't likely to happen anytime soon. No one forces you to vote or give an opinion either.

Maybe ripping up your yard for the new tank and adding a circuit to your electrical box and paying for pump-outs every few years to test the seal on the tank is not a big expense for you as opposed to having a grinder pump, I don't know. Have you compared the prices for your situation?

(Personally, the stench of the pump-outs of tanks and the diesel truck's fumes wafting about in the tightly packed yards around here is something I'd rather not smell as I am at home a lot. And having seen in rural Ohio this summer the beauty of man hole covers in yards offends my aesthetic sensibilities, but hey, that's just me.)

Sewertoons said...

Thank you Aaron!

Alon Perlman said...

Thank you, Aaron!
I hope you also realise that one person's "repetition" is another person's "staying on message".

And then there is repetition in submission to a government agency.

I invite you all, again, to review what has been submitted to the planning commission and by whom.
Look at THESE SUBMISSIONS WITH THE FOLLOWING FILTER- AS IF YOU WERE A PLANNING COMMISSIONER, DOING THEIR JOB.
NOW; look AT THE SUBMISSIONS BRIEFLY, AS IF YOU WERE A MEMBER OF PUBLIC WHO IS NOT KNOWLEDGABLE, ON SEWER TECHNOLOGY, AND WHO DOESN'T KNOW HOW THE AGENCIES INTERACT.
IF YOU DO IT CORRECTLY YOU WILL COME UP WITH VERY DIFFERENT OPINIONS AS TO WHAT THE PC HAD TO DEAL WITH.
"True or false" Versus "Good or Evil"?
Words, Just words. There are plenty of "leaders" in Los osos who tell their followers that "THE TRUTH"" IS THAT "They" are "Evil" and "WE" are "Good".
(and if it turns out that you disagree to part of the truth- Then you are one of "them")

Now while the 16 (Valid and Bum-Rushing alike) appeals are not yet posted, let's review the two prior actions; Lisa's Complaint and Gail's Lawsuit.
Do you actually beleive that there is no connection between them?
You may have to remove the (family) filter that convinces you that Gail =Bad, whereas Lisa =GOOD on this one.

Sewertoons said...

The Planning Commission did not have to take into account what happens to us if we miss the possible stimulus money. The PC did not have to care if all the water issues will be paid for by the PZ. The PC did not have to be aware of lawsuits caused by their changing the location -- or be aware that lawsuits cause delay.

Or did they?

They are giving away -- they HOPE -- the treated water. What if the farmers will not take it? Even Monterey County has not MADE any farmer TAKE it if they prefer to pump their own water. And if they don't take it - where is it going to go? Circle back through the plant again? Seems like the put-it-out-of-towners didn't like that idea.

Want to see a lawsuit to make all of ours look puny? Challenge the farmers on their rights to the water beneath their property.

Could the Sustainability Group be thinking of this possibility when they advocate MANDATING the farmers to TAKE the recycled water? Even Ripley didn't go that far.

Aaron said...

People can stay on a message and not repeat themselves ad nauseum at the same time.

Alon's question was, "Do you actually believe that there is no connection between Lisa's complaint and Gail's lawsuit?"

There's not a connection in subject matter. Gail's lawsuit is about vacating the CDOs and challenging the legality of the PZ. Lisa's complaint is about Ogren being in conflict of interest with MWH.

However, Gail has submitted additional documents and information to Lisa's complaint, hence the line from the preliminary analysis, "...others who have staked out partisan positions that are consistently at odds with County staff."

There never was a "family" filter of Gail being bad and Lisa being good. It's about the results. It's about what they've contributed. Lisa contributed an unorganized complaint that alleges wrongdoing. Gail has filed numerous lawsuits and non-profit organizations that have taken thousands of dollars away from her core group of supporters -- each of those lawsuits was either dismissed or left to amend over and over again.

In the end, it's just one massive headache.

Sewertoons said...

Since the result of Gail's lawsuits would have been a dismissal of the PZ as an entity, which would mean the sewer issue would start at square one back with the bankrupt CSD, who thinks that this was not an aim to block getting a sewer at all in our lifetimes anyway?

Lisa just seems confused (I'm trying hard to not say crazy here) to throw 1,300 pages at the County in such a disorganized fashion. She's had years to put these pages into some sort of order -- or in fact make a case - why this mess, with no sticking points, and why now?

Both cases aim toward slowing down, hampering, confusing, STOPPING us from getting a WWTF, regardless of the wordy window dressing to make it sound relevant. But that's just my opinion.

I feel sorry for the people who have spent money on these subterfuges.

Alon Perlman said...

First -I apologize for my spelling “beleive”. I should never forget that “believe” always has a “lie” right in the middle

Taking tangentials as to subject matter? a talent for stating the obvious? "It's about what they've contributed"? darned straight it is.
How about "Strategy"

Lisa does nothing in the legal arena without going to her sources. If you haven’t figured out by now that this is a case where Gail set Lisa up, and now is going to let her hang in the breeze, then there really is no hope for you.

It's a little late for you to be describing to me that Lisa's complaint is disorganized.
Really, I did not know that? let's read back, or no, let's not and say we did. I am simply referring to Gail's Lawsuit which at one time you dismissed as frivolity while championing Lisa's complaint. I'm suggesting a longer look, at the more real of the two.
I'm not for any lawsuits but since the ROCK and yourself have taken a position that the county is corrupt and that an ORGANIZED complaint would be a good thing, don't you feel a bit ...
same Live in Winterland, Final show, the Sex Pistols
The medium is the message- the comment is after six minutes and 45 seconds into the clip.

Aaron said...

Firstly, I've always known Gail was the puppetmaster. We've talked about this on the blogs here and in person. I haven't changed my opinion about Gail.

I did find legitimacy in the material presented in the complaint such as the backdating of contracts and altering records. The issue, in my mind, was: what are the overriding legal principles? What matters more? Government Code § 6200 or promissory estoppel?

For what it is, the allegation of conflict of interest, I took no stance. I was more concerned about the fairness of competition -- and no, that's not code for, "I want STEP/STEG back!"

I wrote on my blog June 16th: "Not only does this not hurt the process, it strengthens the process and encourages the County to look at all the bidders that are new to the Los Osos playing field. Granted, the County addressed MWH’s qualifications in light of the accusations brought forth in the formal complaint, but the problem is that MWH has dominated the conversation. What ever happened to the competition? Why should they compete with a contractor who has — for at least five years — had such deep involvement with the town and its politics?"

To me, it wasn't all about conflict of interest. It was about MWH being placed highly on the pedestal -- and I thought that Paavo gave the impression that he was more cozy working with them than anyone else.

Second, I believe the County is as flawed as this process. Personally, I never described the County as "corrupt," but The ROCK has posted about the Edge/Wilcox investigation as being something that involved corrupted County employees.

There hasn't been any backtracking. If you feel there is, provide some links that prove your point.

Alon Perlman said...

Close enough, Aaron.
Garbage in, Garbage out.
poor judgement is poor judgement.
That's not how to get a crack in the door or trigger a larger investigation. But there is a payoff, so why ask why.
Lynette. Think of the image. Think of the last CSD election-Immaculate Conception and the beginning of the age of martyrs.

When a person occupies the space that a real ________ would occupy, they ARE the problem.
A. Environmentalist.
B. Conservationist.
C. Leader.
D. Statesman.
E. Low income Housing Advocate.
F. Activist.
G. CSD Director.
H. Journalist.

Etcetera etcetera for everything other than Politician, or puppetmaster's tool.
Goodnight

M said...

So sewertoons, i'm just a gullible old lug that believes anything told to me? Why should I believe you? If I remember correctly, the ones that brought us the mess that is Tri-W sold us on a "better, cheaper, faster" system than the one proposed. Didn't that make them snake-oil salesmen? Are you telling me that $207 a month was the bottom line price for Tri-W? No extras, no overuns, nothing left out, everything out in the open. I find it hard to believe that the County's plan starting at $77 a month could have possibly risen that high. Maybe you could espouse on things that were missing from that project.
Do you happen to know what the inherent problems with vacuum was that got it dropped immediately?
Bottom line, when I see a notification go out for bids to multiple contractors for a project that is right for our situation, and competively bid on, will I possibly feel okay about what will transpire.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

Hi M,

You are not a gullible old lug in my books, and you are not wrong that better, faster, cheaper wasn't. I don't agree with the term "snake oil," as snake oil salesmen know their product is a fraud or are unknowledgeable or know that it won't work in a certain situation as they claim it will, but push to sell it anyway. The BCF group fully believed it would work, (yes, I do know Pandora, Sylvia, Stan [I have met him] and Gordon) and in instances where the exact degree to which the water needed to be cleaned up, the Oswald system would work. They were either unaware or it came up later that 10 years of clean-up proof would be required, and Oswald could not supply that proof. (They sued Oswald and got their money back.) Naivete was the biggest problem, I think, and the Water Board did change the rules mid-way to require that the entire town be sewered. So there went better-cheaper-faster.

Let me tell you my knowledge on how that went down, second hand from friends who lived here during the time and fought the County project at that time - the one over by the middle school. We didn't live here then so I can only comment from mid-2005 on with my own, direct knowledge. My friends protested the Pismo location because they had a kid in school there and the disinfecting chlorine would have been stored too close to the school. They also had problems with the County in that they could never get them to pin down exactly where the boundaries of the plant would be - close to the road, far from the road - the boundaries were never pinned down.

So far - you see two choices for a WWTH - both IN town. And it wasn't location that decided it - it was chlorine and cost, according to the information from the neighbors.

Tri-W went ahead with an altogether different technology and it was to cost between $185 to $220 per month, $205 being the average for homeowners. No, it was not going to end there, but the price wouldn't change until around build-out, when more water would need to be disposed of. What couldn't be re-used recycled back through the plant and at build out - that wasn't going to work. As to who would pay for that? I don't know. Maybe through water rates as purple pipe might need to be installed?

Please read next post!

Sewertoons said...

I wrote too much so it wouldn't publish! Here is the rest:

Which is the problem I have with the Planing Commissions additions. The money that will need to be spent to do it their way should be paid for all who buy water from the purveyors, not just us in the PZ off the project.

We can't go back to the County's $77/mo. ($90 - $140) plan as that property is not available and regulations have changed to where that plan probably would not pass through any regulatory agency now. I don't know what more would have been require from that plan as new regulations hit the books.

Vacuum was dropped for a number of reasons - the same problem as step - where to put the pits (tanks), as public right-of-ways won't work and to be cost effective two or more houses need to be hooked up top one pit - so whose house gets the pit? Hydraulic capacity - not enough for the hills we have, you'd need a lot of lift stations. This is more what has come out since the report, which I think didn't go into the detail we all would like to have seen. If you want to reference what was written, go here:

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/Assets/PW/LOWWP/document+library/RoughScreeningReport.pdf

See the relevant chapter start on Pg 101, Vacuum is on Pgs 112-113 and the summary is on Pgs 112-113.

We'd all like to see this thing go out to bids ASAP I think - to keep the costs down. Two years from now - if lawsuits stall the project - where will those costs go? I think that is why the County choose Tonini - less likely to raise a ruckus, but then the Farm Bureau didn't like it. That is why I like Tri-W, despite its problems (ALL sites have problems), no farm land is used and people were OK, in fact voted for, having a plant in town until the poison brigade passed out the Kool-Aid. Tri-W has been litigated TO DEATH. Don't know if any lawsuit there could actually stick.

Hope I didn't make you stop reading paragraphs ago M. There are no quick answers to a WWTF for Los Osos! You are always polite M, so that is why it was worth my time to write so much. I appreciate your civility.

M said...

Thank you sewertoons for your kind assessment of my posts. Since I do not attend meetings of any sort, I would sort of think that you could maybe capture me as a voice of a large number of residents in the prohibition zone. One other than one of the known obstructionist.
Sincerely, M

Sewertoons said...

You are welcome M. I do think that you do represent many other residents as to content and tone. Questioning and polite. I don't see you, or the others like you, as obstructionists at all. You are just not sewer geeks like those of us who stay up at night reading reports and who attend meetings like mad. Which alludes to the fact that you (collectively) have other things in your life of more importance. I do not doubt your concern.

it is really a shame that this became such a mess. So many reasons. But all we have to work with is tomorrow. I hope that agendas of the spin-meisters working against the County now will become apparent to all. We will not get a perfect sewer. That is an impossibility. But get one we must if we want to keep our town.

Alon Perlman said...

Couple comments, anecdotes from other people etc...; I also was told there were also concerns at the school site pismo that with proximity and with some ponds/basins. Kids could drown.
In the very early dayz there was another out of town Turri (landfill area), with the land donated in exchange for development rights. This is without historical research.

As a real time participant at the TAC to PC stage;- At a critical stage, Perfect Storm coincidence, "Vacume also" proponents were overshadowed by those who were "invested" in STEP. I doubt it was all by design. Just that the proponents had boned up on STEP-There was enough Information out there so that any-body could come up and be a STEP proponant expert, and that was not true for vacume.
And "M" do you watch the Channel 20 and 21, or via SLO-SPAN?
If you want to develop a Two bottle of Aspirin headache;-
Minutes of meetings are online at CSD and at The County Website for LOWWP
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=swKbSrfCGIaKsgOal7STDg&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=vacuum+lowwp&spell=1
Toons what is the last on Questa BTS- is any portion of it by vacume/Hybrid?
DEIRitis

Mike said...

Hi Alon... the "land fill" site was the old garbage dump with toxic concerns... also, the Tri-W collection system was also a hybrid with some pressurized portions... The prerecall Directors were not stupid by any means, well we could exclude Lisa and Julie... at least they didn't have personal agenda to over turn the State Water Board...

Oh well, we wouldn't want to upset Aaron with too much "repetition", it might remind him of the attacks against the old Directors... It might also remind him that the Tri-W site and design was fully permitted...all very much within the legal process... Could someone tell me how many permits that the post recall gang obtained...????

Aaron said...

Paavo Ogren said at office hours that he worked on a team competing with MWH during CSD WWTP bids originally and his team lost. What was the name of the team Paavo worked with?

Sewertoons said...

Alon, I don't know - what is BTS?

Aaron, I don't know.

Aaron said...

I'm sure Semonsen would know if he was on the interview team at the time. Does anyone have his e-mail address?

Alon Perlman said...

UTB-W DBTS

Oh Sorry tunes -Questa,
It's more of a lack of access to the CP conditions- where are the PC final conditions-posted?. Also visibly absent- CCC comments
The Vacume part-Is any part still in the now-PC "project" Hybrid section-

Alon Perlman said...

wow broken link, try again
UTB-W DBTS

franc4 said...

A Perl,
Right, you don't know me, have no idea how (un)filtered my info be, nor have I stood (literally) next to you on any occasion. However, our thoughts and opinions (in most cases) are similar. I feel your mention of "50+" pages submitted by Ms. Schicker on a issue not related to her "complaint", is irrelevant to the "complaint" submitted to the attorney (?) for the BOS. If, in your opinion, the "complaint" is too lengthy, I submit that she must have put alot of time and effort into same, was thorough in compiling documents and due to the injustice about to occur, wanted it to be complete and accurate. Reguardless of what her critics imply, I feel she, in my opinion, being genuinely an honest, concerned person, feels someone should bring to the attention of the citizens of Los Osos, the injustice and deceit being perpitrated by the BOS et al towards the community she loves.
To paraphrase, ideology has no place in politics.....and I KNOW her ideals are impeccable. That's the rub!

Sewertoons said...

Alon, look under #3:

http://slocounty.granicus.com/AgendaViewer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=751

franc4 said...

'toons,
What is your basis for calling Ms. Schickers complaint "un orginized"?....did she forget to number the pages or what? In fact, how do you know this......did you read it? What are your credentials for declaring an persons mental state?...."crazy". A little birdie told me that you don't like her very much for personal reasons. Know what....it shows.

Sewertoons said...

My reasons for disliking Ms. Schicker's actions are the terrible impacts of her poor decision making on the community of LO. I won't discuss them further. I have enumerated them for years. If I did, you will simply repeat that it wasn't her fault.

I don't dislike people.

I am not the only person who found her report disorganized. Why are you picking on me? I downloaded all of her postings and read many of them. There was a great deal of repetition. Guess you didn't notice this when you read it all, did you? Did you read any of it?

I guess if a person were trying to persuade the BOS and County Counsel of a guilty act, they wouldn't make it so darn hard to find the guilt part. Of course if you are not sure you have anything, throwing every little thing you can find against the wall to see what might stick is the best that you can do. Clearly it didn't work. If you think Warren Jensen is suddenly going to do an about face after making the statement he did, your head is clearly planted in wishful-thinking-land.

Newspaper articles are not used as "evidence." Giving Warren Jensen a wikipedia definition of bid-rigging was completely absurd. But these examples and others were meant to sway the PUBLIC as to the righteousness of her claims and to cast suspicion on the process. Why would she do that?

So why do you wish Paavo to be guilty?

Sewertoons said...

Vacuum or a low pressure system will be bid along with the main part of gravity, for those certain areas designated by the BOS & CCC. It is out of the Planning Commissions hands now.

Aaron said...

I was the one who originally said the complaint was unorganized, not 'Toons.

I read the complaint documents (had the May 2009 submissions but got the other documents from her Sky drive).

Schicker states her case by saying she has concerns that Paavo may have a conflict of interest, but she doesn't specifically pinpoint any evidence (in all the material she submitted) that shows Ogren receiving money from MWH.

Jensen writes in an e-mail, "To have a legally cognizable conflict of interest, Mr. Ogren would have to have (1) a financial interest in MWH, or (2) a common law conflict of interest." Schicker doesn't provide that, but what she provides is documents that show Paavo's willingness to backdate contracts for services already rendered; this invokes, according to Jensen, the legal principle of promissory estoppel.

Then the complaint starts to move away from the conflict-of-interest claim and establishes the argument that MWH shouldn't be part of the process because of some bad press they've received in the past. Jensen found no negative inferences in the material provided prior to May 2009.

Conflict of interest is extremely hard to prove. I find merit in concerns about Paavo (because he, himself, never publicly addressed his connections with MWH), but the accusations are misleading.

Alon Perlman said...

Bizzaro World.
To Paraphrase CSD council Jon Sites to Lisa almost a year ago=“Not everyone has the same idea of what “original” means”. Fanc4’s address to me was very specific.

Franc4 is not askin’ who can ante-up the mos’ hi-fallutin sevente fahv scaint woids.
What Franc4 is rilly sayi’n is ----**How come people don’t like Lisa.**

“She is honest therefore she writes well, therefore her complaint is complete and accurate. (no need to read it, her integrity guarantees the best possible complaint.)”

Well, back to the real world.

It’s My opinion that the Sun also rises. Any day that the Sun rises it will rise on a complaint that is too lengthy. It is too lengthy by virtue of it’s extreme length, not by virtue of MY opinion. The document that is to decide the future of Los Osos is the EIR for the project, all 490 page of it (see further down...)
The statement of yours I can partly agree with- I do believe that Lisa is doing what she thinks is the right thing and is doing it for what she thinks are the right reasons. And as long as people who haven’t read it think it’s great, why should she reconsider that there may be UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES?
I know that even if valid (true malfeasance at the county level) this complaint submission is flawed as something that can have any affect on anything other than internal Osos politics. Now here is why I’m involved-writing this today- because I’m trying to reach the citizens of Los Osos, such as yourself-to let them know that the project is in the hand of the County, and that the planning commission is only able to do so much, and only on the basis of the EIR, and only (affectively) on the basis of comments that the coastal commission makes. And they can either read Lisa’s complaint at 1200 pages, or an EIR (draft at 490 pages), or they can read specific PRACTICAL comments having to do with the actual CDP and project before them.

THE PLANNING COMMISSION
I read what she submitted after the initial complaint.
Politics is ALL about ideology. Where ideology does not belong is in the provision of essential municipal services.
http://slocounty.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?view_id=3&clip_id=728&meta_id=145482
This is part of the correspondence RECEIVED by the planning commission
(has some interesting vacuum commentary, later). I will address the relevance of the lengthy communications 50 pages to RWQCB3 later.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote:

"I'm not concerned about what I write here."

Vacuum was studied M, it just had so many flaws for this area, it dropped out early in the process. Why you are so willing to believe any snakeoil salesman's assertions is interesting. But I bet it has more to do with mistrusting the County from that bad old days that the County of now than believing the salesman.

There was one citizen, a smart one who understands engineering -- who was pro-vacuum for quite a while in this process. When he learned that the salesman had misrepresented the figures as to feasibility of lift, he dropped that idea quickly. Vacuum as proposed by the salesman would have been cheaper. Vacuum as constructed in reality, would not.

Vacuum was dropped for a number of reasons - the same problem as step - where to put the pits (tanks), as public right-of-ways won't work and to be cost effective two or more houses need to be hooked up top one pit - so whose house gets the pit? Hydraulic capacity - not enough for the hills we have, you'd need a lot of lift stations. This is more what has come out since the report, which I think didn't go into the detail we all would like to have seen. If you want to reference what was written, go here:

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/Assets/PW/LOWWP/document+library/RoughScreeningReport.pdf

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette is still using falsehoods to further her shadow county campaign in order to try to deflect why vacuum another less expensive non-leaky technology was never studied i.e.- There was one citizen… Like Mr. Dean (sorry, I forgot his last name) or was it County stooge Bill Garfinkle?

The report she refers to is not stamped by the consulting engineer who wrote it.
The county did not pay reduced rates for a “non-stamped” engineering report, so why was it not stamped?

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,
Why was vacuum never studied?
Why not tell us why YOU LIE?

Interesting Paavo and Bruce can't/won't/don't answer my very simple question: Why was vacuum collection never studied?

Mike said...

...how many MONTHS did it take BEFORE the sales person actually asked Paavo that question....??? How many times did that dubious "sales" person repetitively ask that question BEFORE he asked Paavo...and now expects a quick answer...???

I give Paavo alot of credit for simply ignoring a sales person who doesn't even try to work within the system... This blog is not the "Process"....

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

Give credit where credit is due but be very prepared for the final result.

When the process that Paavo presided over goes for funding he will find something he is not expecting.

Don't you wonder why the county hasn't begun issuing tax billsd for the "project" yet when their "schedule" called for those initial bills due out first half 2009?

If you think Paavo hasn't been questioned about his "process" by me and others from the start, you really need to get out of that closet.

Rest easy little fella, credit will be given where and when it is due.

How did your Florida research turn out?

Mike said...

Apparently you have been given more than enough "answers" to your questions which were found to be lacking in substance and dismissed...

You continue to amaze as to how you, who have absolutely no ownership within SLO County or Los Osos and live somewhere in Arizona, how you incessently think you will ever "sell" anything to SLO County or the Contractors who will build the sewer in Los Osos... You seem to think your blog sales spam is going to influence anyone except the Plan-less Obstructionist... Oh well, you could be out trying to sell something that might actually bring you a paycheck...

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse:

The LOSTDEP is special, like you.
Did you do any research in Florida or are you just a liar too?

Watershed Mark said...

Why was vacuum collection not studied?

This is a very expensie question that seems to have stumped you and others.

Too bad because unless and until that question is answered there really isn't any way of claiming an "evaluation of alternatives" occurred under Paavo's process.

Mike said...

Call me anything that makes you feel like a man... I just don't feel like wasting any time on your silly, non relevant BS...

Watershed Mark said...

Why was vacuum collection not studied?

This is a very and needlessly expensive question that seems to have stumped you and others.

Paavo should have actually studied as his unstamped report attemped to suggest.

BTW, I do not represent collection technology, MIKE little mouse.

Watershed Mark said...

Facts are stubborn things, MIKE little mouse, wait and see.

Watershed Mark said...

Too bad you are feeling less than manly little mouse.

Aaron said...

Maria Kelly has a bad habit of putting people down.

I may be "outside the wheel," but at least I know how the wheel turns.

Mike said...

Thank you Aaron...

Watershed Mark said...

I'm happy I could get you two together.

Sewertoons said...

Aaron, how on earth do you imagine that her comment was about YOU? PLUS, it wasn't even a put down!

She was advocating for focus - keeping the focus on the resolution of our wastewater problem. A lot of people are spending time with distractions to that goal, they are not really looking at the goal.

But I guess if the shoe fits…

So the question is - how are you helping us to get a WWTF? You have a blog, I look at the topics - all is accusation and innuendo that something is wrong with the County employees/elected officials and the process.

When the final Jensen report is out, will you comment positively - that there was no wrongdoing?

Hey - did we ever get that report on Mr. Wrecklamator, who slinked out of town, but reappeared with big thick Wrecklamator books to shove under Gibson's and Ogren's noses? Did we ever get a report on Gail. Gee, I'd like reports with just as much suspicion and innuendo about those two - (of course you might actually have some FACTS on those two) -- but then they are not County employees or elected officials and might fight back? Does that account for why you have not written about them? Or are you sympathetic to the causes they believe in? Just curious.

Aaron said...

You misunderstood. I know she didn't mention me, but she did take a pot shot at people (those who are "outside the wheel") without ever saying if she was speaking as a resident or as a member of the CSD.

The County clearly has momentum moving forward in the process so the, "Keep the focus!" message was unnecessary and repetitive. I think she went up there to sucker punch people who disagree with the County process.

Are you asking me, a private citizen, on how I'm helping us get a WWTF? I don't understand. I have a blog with opinions -- but I just re-read my "topics." None of them are "accusations and innuendo." If you can point to where the accusations are made, I'd appreciate it -- but every time I actually challenged you to read the material and add substance to your claims, you come up empty, not me. I'm ready when you are.

If you actually read my blog, I've covered Murphy and McPherson. You ask the question, "Does that account for why you have not written about them?" but why would you ask that when you've even commented on one of the articles that I wrote on McPherson.

I thought we were making some progress after the office hours on Thursday, but now you've reverted to making -- wait, what's that word again? -- "unsubstantiated assertions."

Short term memory loss?

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote: "Aaron, how on earth do you imagine that her comment was about YOU? PLUS, it wasn't even a put down!"

Aaron said...
You misunderstood.


Aaron,
Your response is an understatement of epic proportions to say the least.

Watershed Mark said...

When the final Jensen report is out, will you comment positively - that there was no wrongdoing?

Do't you mean "if" Jensen sticks it out long enough to author a "final" report?

Don't forget he may actually have to defend his "opinion."

Don't lose sight of the fact that the WaterBoard does not have any scientific proof that the legally permitted septic tanks are contributing to the nitrogen loading in their v-e-r-y arbitrary PZ.

Watershed Mark said...

Don't you mean "if" Jensen sticks it out long enough to author a "final" report?

Alon Perlman said...

Sewretoons you public official apologist you, You are so ossocentric.
How come you don't understand that Aaron is the Absolute Center of the Universe and the wheel (including those who are moving along the spokes toward his centeritude) exists only at his whim. We are only guests in his world. Everything that happened today in the BOS and hearafter is but a distraction.
Today's BOS project update

170 conditions? 111?
Smurphey's Blue Flying Carpet with Waterboard stelth cloaking?

WELL, I JUST WOULDN’T WANT TO HAVE THE LAST WORD HERE.

7:12 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________

Aaron said...

Blah blah blah!!!

7:13 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________

Watershed Marksaid...

Blah blah blah

7:15 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________
Watershed Mark said...

Blah blah blah

7:16 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________
Aaron said...

Blah blah blah

7:17 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________
Watershed Mark said...

Blah blah blah

7:18 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________
Watershed Mark said...

Blah blah blah

7:19 PM, September 01, 2009
___________________________________
Watershed Mark said...

Blah blah blah

Aaron said...

Alon,

If only you spoke English.

Alon Perlman said...

beankers
Word verificaion 4 2day

Aaron said...

I don't think it's fair that someone -- who has made a business out of insulting me regularly -- goes up to the podium and makes no sense. Alon, you're not exactly leading by example when you speak in fragments and then come onto the blog and insult without a foundation. Try focusing on making your message clear instead of the insults.

Originally, I was referring to Maria's line about some people being "outside the wheel" who don't have a grasp of the issues -- and these people are causing the board to lose focus.

I get it. I have a good idea of who Maria is referring to, but at the same time, if you want the board to focus on the issues, how does dismissing her opposition help the board focus in any way? I don't understand. I would love an e-mail from her to explain her reasoning. How does talking about people being "off the wheel" help those who are trying to stay on it?

It would be a good idea if she actually named those she's actually targeting. She mentioned saltwater intrusion in that she knows people who have been studying it for 30+ years (implying that maybe they have more of a handle of that particular issue than the LOSG).

It's disappointing that a CSD director can only contribute to the process by cheerleading with no constructive suggestions in sight.

Alon Perlman said...

I think the supervisors got my message. Members of the audience who have 37 years of experience in county politics had absolutly no problem with it.
I know you like people who repeat themselves and summerise what other people say, write statements and read from them.
Try actually engaging in discovery-as in actually forming new technical observations while at the podium somtimes. You know:
like-an original concept that no one has thought of before.
Oh I forgot, you can't do that.
Ok I guess that you will just have to wait till my words come out of someone elses mouth. You will like them then, like youv'e done before.

Aaron said...

I need to educate you on a few things -- and I'm not doing this in a vindictive way. It's just something I need to get off my chest.

I've had many people come up to me and say that you're incompetent -- but they didn't want to be the bearers of bad news. I never uttered a bad word about you in public. Instead, I opted to listen to you at the back of the room while you hurled derogatory, misogynist slurs at Lisa Schicker and Karen Vendetti.

After that, people looked at me with this puzzled look on their faces and they asked me, "Aaron, do you believe what Alon is saying about these women?" and I've told them, "No," but I listened to you, assuming that you had something to say.

Here you are, painting a picture of me as if I'm the "center of the universe" when after the November 2008 election, you were foaming at the mouth over why people didn't give you the credit that you felt you deserved for the "scientific data" that people cited in their arguments.

Even then, I didn't say a word, but you sure had plenty to say about me: enough so that you would call me repeatedly and personally threaten me. What a "centrist" you really turned out to be.

You're one sick puppy, Alon. If the people you criticized knew about the things you said about them behind closed doors, you would be shunned.

You have no business insulting people, Mr. Perlman. I kindly suggested that you should make your message clearer, but you continue to berate.

Stop acting like a failure.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse,

See what I mean about the LOSTDEP being "special?"


Sources outline a long list of alleged misappropriations such as supervisors handing county contracts to family members.
County Counsel Warren Jensen and Administrator Jim Grant were unavailable for comment. Numerous calls to the Public Works Department were met with a busy signal.

Where there is smoke there is fire.
Why was vacuum never studied?

Sewertoons said...

Hi Aaron,

Maria spoke as a homeowner. She mentioned that.

You say about Maria that her, "'Keep the focus!' message was unnecessary and repetitive." Why pick on her? Did Al, Linde, Lisa, Keith, etc. say anything new? Maria speaks every once in a while - the above mentioned speak at every meeting on the same things. Why did you pick her out special today? I don't know when she has stated that message before. Maybe you can fill me in. Do you think that the Supes might want to hear (deserve to hear) something positive now and again instead of criticism, anger and whining?

How is what she said a potshot? How did she "sucker punch people?" Not all the speakers seem to notice that it is a wastewater project that must be built and take preeminence over the other concerns. They address along the periphery but seldom add anything to help the process to move along. They seem to harp on STEP, Paavo, and every bell and whistle that must be added to the project (read additions of time and money) -- where is the understanding that we really stop putting a million gallons of pollution into the ground daily? I hear, "We only need a septic management plan, we don't need to sewer all of Los Osos, STEP must go back in, save the basin, MWH is corrupt," etc.. Maybe how you can explain how these people are people "trying to stay on the wheel?" and get us to the goal?

Can you name one thing you LIKE about what the County and Paavo has done?

In going back to see what you posted about my calling you out on not writing about Gail, you were right. You did give Gail a pretty good send-up. I suspect there was more that you held back. Follow-up maybe? We know she is not knitting afghans just because she is offstage at the moment. Sorry about misspeaking on Gail.

But on Tom Murphy however, I believe these are Ed's writings.

http://www.rockofthecoast.com/archives/AprMay08.pdf
March of ‘The Reclamator’

"On March 1 AES Discharge Elimination
Services’ Tom Murphy began installation
of a Reclamator water reclaiming/repurifying
device at the home he had just purchased in
Bayridge Estates in Los Osos."

"But on Saturday morning, March 1, Tom
Murphy woke up a Los Osos homeowner and that
gave him a new toehold and fresh perspective."

___________________________________________and________________________________________

http://www.rockofthecoast.com/razor/2009/07/08/reclamator-man-exits-los-osos/

"In mid June Tom Murphy, of “Reclamator” notoriety, was evicted from the house he had been occupying in Bayview Estates since March 2008."

"Murphy never had it as good as he had it in Los Osos, living free for over a year in someone else’s spacious house overlooking the Valley and Bishop’s Peak…"

– Ed Ochs

Neither article is very harsh, compared to others on Maria, and Bill G..

So there is a good article I can see for you to write - on the conflicting information. In April/May of '08 Tom purchased the home. But in mid-June, he was evicted and had lived in the house for free. Your turn, Ed has done his part.

In looking back on the Gail thing, I found this on Ann's blog:

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 25, 2009
Sewer Viewpoint

To quote Aaron,
"I'm no longer in the insulting business…"

11:38 AM, February 25, 2009

http://calhounscannon.blogspot.com/2009/02/sewer-viewpoint-following-appeared-in.html

Please explain your quote today:
"You're one sick puppy, Alon."

We have made progress Aaron, but I just want to make sure it will stick this time.

Sewertoons said...

Al was whining about no ponds today. So aside from the massive amounts of farmland they would take up, here is what pond neighbors (this is in Utah) had to say about them:

http://www.ecprogress.com/index.php?tier=1&article_id=8215

Could this be why some folks out by Giacomazzi are protesting?

Aaron said...

Why does Maria pick on her constituents? I wouldn't "pick" on her if she really meant what she says -- about keeping the focus. How does berating those who are "off the wheel" help the focus of those who are on the wheel?

I can give you my opinion based on his writing if that will suffice. Ed isn't here, reading the blogs. It seems like most of your beef is with him -- so why don't you e-mail him?

The Reclamator saga has been ongoing and talking about Murphy is a dangerous, legal tightrope walk, but in the article you cited contains some gems you might have missed, like:

"[Murphy] made a colossal blunder thinking a carpetbagger could just walk into SLO and rip off honestly-stolen money from thieves in suits who have been doing it here for years. Tearing a page from the Genghis Khan Scorched Earth Guide to Public Relations, Murphy strutted into Los Osos with Federal Water Code in one hand and an imaginary sword in the other, claiming to be “above the law,” spending thousands on “Vote No on Prop 218” TV ads, and swearing heads would roll."

Not a very flattering picture, wouldn't you say? You can say Ed is not harsh enough, but what more could he say that people haven't said already?

I will explain my quote.

Alon has made derogatory comments about women that were, in my opinion, perverse in nature. Calling him a "sick puppy" is a drop in the bucket as far as I'm concerned -- unless, of course, you feel that I've insulted the sick puppy advocacy groups. Remind me to apologize to Spongebob Squarepants for saying he's a "damp sponge."

And finally, Ed and I are different people. Father and son. He writes his articles, I write mine. I don't know if the comparison of our writing works in this case. Stylistically, we have two unique approaches to the same subject matter.

Alon Perlman said...

Oh Aaroon I guess I have to respond now.
A hit, a palpable hit!
What is this Rose like chrimson stein growing, unfolding the petals of my life's blood, erasing the whiteness of myn shirt, as my skien beneath pallors like the waxing moon, as it silently slithers to oblivion down the back side of the dunes.

Alon Perlman said...

This is the letter I sent you, after you deleted a posting on your blog. No do-doo words were in the post you deleted
"Escalate"n only means "physical threat" to self absorbed ninnies

From: "Alon Perlman" alonatwork@mail.com> To: "aaronochs@charter.net" CC: edochs@charter.net
Subject: What we have here is a failure to communicate
Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:19:07 -0800
(written earlier, given that you are addressing me on your blog , without my entry post present, please call me after 6 tonite ### ###{redacted} 7709 and after reading what is below. please consider removing todays post, I can easily esculate this)

Aaron,
I really don't have any reason to embaress you, in fact I belive you have been an asset
to Los Osos. about a month ago, I seriously was looking for a posting from you that would justify my then asking Ann to place you on the refence links to blogs along with Ron et al. I tried to increase traffic to your site a couple of times in minor ways then.
Since then I found myself wasting my precious time (and only I get to make that judgement) reviewing BOS tapes (and no, reading this even twice is not time consuming) only to find out that I was right. I remain my own most critical critic. I still dont know what exactly happened (due in part to your debating away from specifics, and due to my scientific training-I always assume I may be wrong) but I did confirm that by far my read was more accurate than yours. And this is the paragraph that is least important in this email.

I called you
1. to ask if you deleted my post. your twitter posting did not clarify that. (more below)
2. I had intended to talk to you, earlier in Agree to disagree or, (what is now gone?) in mutual support. for not having done so earlier, is my only apology. And I did think you were 34, so that does change how many times you had made mistakes and learned from them. (I win, I made more mistakes in my lifetime than you have)
3. As a centerist in a divided town, I was hoping to see someone somewhat like minded. As a self appointed watchdog of government, I was not about to overlook improprieties, on either side. I am obligated to respond to things I think are wrong and if other citizens react to the injustices and manipulate rather than educate their fellows, you bet I will be there.
Please do not try to include me in who'se the bigger dog contests. I have a moral obligation not to pick on someone who is not my size.......
There are indications in your last twiterings that you are taking things very personaly.
In other words; Imagne yourself twenty years from now reading your own writings as they exist today.
I don't usually look at the twitter column.
I am sure I am not unique in that. If your latest message was a "reply" to me, than there may be an issue with the fact that I left a message for ED with PAM.
I only called you once. I usually save copies, but as I was using a friend's Laptop. I didn't save one last night when I posted on your blog. I recollect seeing the post as submited but due to; the occational need (on ann's mostly to get the verification posted) to repost due to initial failure (broken link etc...) Please do not assume that one chanel of communications can be used to respond to another more direct process. Even if you did delete it, (and curently I don't have a conviction that you did, but your choice to not respond to me directly, speaks louder than vague twitterings) that's fine, we can get along, but you will be wise to call me. an esculation surves neither of us, but having committed some unnecessary time to your indulgences, I hope I am not tempted.
Well, now you have some of my words, what's your ego telling you to do?
What are your ethics telling you to do? Is it the same thing?
Sincerely, all the best.

Alon Perlman said...

{{{AArons twitterings, inserted }}}
The blog has some technical issues, but I kindly ask to not call me repeatedly in the morning regarding blog content.about an hour ago
It's my belief that people are too afraid to stand by their opinions (due to overwhelming inaccuracy) so they become "anonymous."1 day ago -I could never imagine that in a small town like ours, there would be such deep, spiteful feelings.2 days ago


Similarly Your posting has errors and assumptionzs, 1/2 truthes, Character assasination, and I will have to respond further. If you respond with anything other than a link to the meeting(s) that allthis supposedly occured I will not be responding further, at least until I have responded to your Magnum Opus.

Meanwhile let's see if anyone sees the threat to MY Life and Liberty-in the following;
--------------------------------
From: "Aaron Ochs" aaronochs@charter.net Save Address Block Sender This Is Spam
To: Alon Perlman alonatwork@mail.com
CC:
Subject: Warning
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 22:49:04 -0700

Show Full Headers Close This Window

Alon,
I warned you to leave me out of your trolling. I was nice about it
before, but now I'm tired of the harassment.
Enough is enough.
Aaron"


I can't resist-So people come to you and say bad things about me, (and though your charisnma is stunning, they probably say this to other people) and they say this, not to me, but behind closed doors. and that is ethical in your mind.
I guess as the only centerist in town I should not be suprised that
people from the extremes of both sides may not like what I say.

Watershed Mark said...

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette wrote: "Sorry about misspeaking on Gail."

Sorry, I forgot his last name Lynette,

If you can apologize for making a statement about something you did not read, why can't you apologize (thereby admitting) that you lied about something you wrote?

Why wasn't vacuum studied?
FACTS are STUBBORN THINGS.

Where is your intellectual integrity?

Aaron said...

Alon,

Is that it? I have an e-mail too. I'm not going to post it, but I said that your behavior toward me was unacceptable. Why didn't you post my response I wonder?

You seem to take disagreement to a whole new level of harassment. I was the one who said, "Let's agree to disagree," not, "If you don't respond to me, I'm going to escalate this."

On this blog, "Mike" used to say -- and I'm paraphrasing -- that the attitudes expressed by the "obstructionists" are quickening the process to bring the sewer back at Tri-W. All the fighting, all the hard work done by people who thought they could move a sewer out of town -- all of that is undone by a few people who antagonize and threaten others, especially those who share the same core values.

If this is how you behave, if this is how the "centrists" really conduct themselves, then have fun dealing with a sewer at Tri-W. Your behavior has made the perfect argument for the WWTF to be there. Now I know what "Mike" is talking about.

Watershed Mark said...

After looking at yesterday's SLOCO BOS meeting LOWWP segment I noticed a couple of things:

1- Why is Bruce Gibson losing wieght?
2- Why is DAvid Edge still shown as AGENDA BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
David Edge
County Administrator?

Alon's presentation got me thinking about why the WB is concerned about protecting an aquifer from an alledged, imagined (or worse) nitrogen loading from legally permitted septic tanks that is being eroded by salt water intrusion.

Magic Sand or Desalination?
At what price and why?

The LOSTDEP is very special indeed.

Watershed Mark said...

Regarding Maria "Damn the Torpedos" Kelly's statement at yesterday's BOS meeting that
her husband took a 10 % cut in pay ( $500 a month ) and she is o.k. with getting a job and willing to pay for $ 200 to $ 300 dollars a month for a sewer.

I wish she would "wake up" to the fact that she may not be able to "find" a job and that her husband could be laid off permenantly.

How do you solve a problem like (that) Maria?

Given Bruce's weight loss and the circles under his eyes, he "may" be having some nightmares over the county's et al behavior.

Sewertoons said...

Aaron,

I asked why YOU had not written about Tom Murphy, you responded with links to ED'S articles. But you have at least explained now why YOU have not written about him. No beef with Ed on this.

I didn't miss that point you quoted, but again, it was written by ED.

So derogatory remarks make name calling OK? But not raping and pillaging a town. Interesting viewpoint.

How did Maria "berate" constituents? I am trying to figure out how you came to that conclusion. She is very respectful of people and their viewpoints.

Are you aware that there are people in Los Osos trying to stop a sewer? (And I am NOT talking about the people out in the Clark Valley area. They have a legitimate beef.) Do you think that the lawsuits threatened by Al and Linde will be helpful to the process, or will they just slow it down and make it even more expensive?

You still did not answer me though. Why pick out Maria? There were 15 other people who spoke. Two threatened lawsuits, At least seven berated the County. No comment from you on that.

So I'll ask again. Can you name one thing you LIKE about what the County and Paavo have done?

Aaron said...

Lynette,

I have not written about Murphy. Ed has because that's his beat, his area of knowledge. It's really simple.

I hope you're not going to make an issue out of the "sick puppy" comment. If you think that's bad, you'd have a cow over the comments made by your friends over at the SanLuisObispo.com discussion boards -- but wait, you condoned their behavior.

I believe you wrote to Wonky1, "You're right on!" when he wrote about tying nooses on Lisa Schicker and Julie Tacker's necks. You remained silent when ReApprazor talked about beating the "thieving Jews" of Los Osos with baseball bats days after resident Tom Salmon had his property vandalized with anti-Semitic graffiti.

You talk about raping and pillaging a town, yet you remained silent when Jon Arcuni wrote a few months ago, "When rape is inevitable, you lay back and take it." I called Alon a sick puppy and Arcuni talks about Los Osos homeowners getting raped -- stay classy, Dreamers!

I remember when Bill O'Reilly got in a hissy fit after comedian Bill Maher called him a "doodiehead." Then you check the tapes and realize that O'Reilly has said his share of derogatory remarks.

Regarding my reasoning for "picking out" Maria, I'll refer to a statement that Paavo often makes: "I gave you an explanation but you just happen to disagree with it."

I am aware that people in Los Osos are trying to stop a sewer. Are you going to play your hand and say that four people in a town of 15,000 are the only ones causing problems? Get real.

If you want my comments on the appeals and lawsuits, scroll up and read my comments. My opinions haven't changed after the BOS meeting. We actually agreed on that -- and now you say I have no comment? What else could I say that I haven't already said? Oh, wait, if I just repeated myself then you'd say I'm being "too repetitive."

Here's what I can say about the County. I liked how they reinvented the wheel in terms of handling every component of the process compared to the pre-recall board, which had everything behind a smokescreen -- and they relied on the Bear Pride and a non-functional CSD web site with broken links to educate the community.

See, you keep coming back up and I keep knocking you back down. If you can't deal with a 24-year-old guy, you most certainly can't handle the real world. It seems we're lightyears apart.

Mike said...

OK Aaron... I will take you to task...

"...when ReApprazor talked about beating the "thieving Jews" of Los Osos with baseball bats days after resident Tom Salmon had his property vandalized with anti-Semitic graffiti."...

Aaron, YOU are totally out of line... ReApprazor DID NOT write or say that...!!!!! I am REApprazor and I certainly did not write that, nor do I know of the graffiti incident....

I can only conclude that you have a very screwed up motive for saying that... I had a little respect for you, but this is at least the 2nd time you have posted this shit... You really are a disgusting little boy who needs to grow up... It is indeed YOU who makes things up and have now lost what little respect I had for even your words...

Mike said...

Aaron... I really am pissed at your remarks... I have some very good friends of the Jewish faith and just can't imagine you making up that shit... I doubt you have any faith or religion, Christian, Jewish, Musslim, Buddist or any faith in a God.... simply a pimply faced little kid wanting to sound important... You have lost all credibility and respect...!!!!!

Aaron said...

You got busted, admit it.

Your comments were out of line.

Alon Perlman said...

Mike, a while back you posted that you thought Aaron said some nasty things during the recall, That was probably me. Maybe it was him, but I really don't remember him around, probably Suckling, as he still is. Once I became involved in local elected government, almost 4 years ago, I realized that I would have to attempt to represent ALL Los Osos (pause for wry chuckle). I also chose not to appologise but instead WALKED across town and started to talk to people from "the other side"
I also saw a lot of people caught in a cycle that was not working (ESP in regards to CSD-Waterboard) and I did make some adjustments, especially as I had some Regulatory experience from back when I made the medium large bucks, as much as it is fun to yell at the waterboard, I toned down, and became a measured constructive critic and earned a measure of respect (I provide no evidence for this assertion). So when at the televised Candidates Forum, Last CSD election I stated "...and my secret agenda is to heal Los Osos" quite a few people "got it" and some people "didn't like it".

Mike said...

I did catch that Alon...as for the the little boy, if he was trying to "Out" REApprazor, then he sort of accomplished that... HOWEVER, he sunk to the lowest level of his parent's septic tank in creating his out and out LIE...!!!!

That unfortunately was, and apparently still is, the preferred method of character assassination the Obstructionists like amuse themselves... Straight out LIES and enuendo.... Seems like it's straight out of the handbook for destruction of local government...

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse:

You are anonymous, so it is hysterical that you claim you are yet another anonymous blogger.

What are you so afraid of my little buddy or should I say coward?

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE little mouse:

Lynette is a liar.
Why wasn't vacuum studied?

franc4 said...

why am I getting all you guys childish rhetoric on my e-mail account? I really am not interested in your insults to each other....really!

Aaron said...

I always knew Mike was ReApprazor. Writing styles are similar. I never questioned it.

Sorry that I interrupted your KKK rally, gentlemen.

«Oldest ‹Older   1 – 200 of 240   Newer› Newest»