Now It Can Be Told
This is a Sewerville Story. For years I’d heard a canard that sounded like an urban legend about a certain Los Osos resident who was delighted by the plans to sewer the community, even with an extremely expensive system, because it would clean out the riff-raff. I had heard that story credited to several different people but never found the person who actually heard it in person. Until Thursday, April 30, at the Planning Commission.
There, during public comment, Jack Hunter went to the microphone to tell the Commissioners that the real “elephant in the room” is the issue of cost, and felt a personal anecdote would suffice to illustrate the real problem facing my beloved Bangladesh by the Bay: Seems Mr. Hunter ran into a former neighbor of his who enthusiastically explained that having an expensive, “unaffordable” sewer for Los Osos would start a process that would drive out the riff-raff, and having a lot of homes suddenly come on the market all at once (the riff-raff’s homes) would drive prices down in general (glut on the market) thereby allowing developers and other people flush with capital to come in and buy up the properties and either tear them down the riff raff houses) and put up McMansions for the wealthy who would soon be retiring and leaving L.A. and SF or sit on the properties for resale at a handsome profit to the non-riff-raff folks who would be arriving in this beautiful, now riff-raff-free little piece of paradise to play golf and enjoy their leisure years.
According to Mr. Hunter, his neighbor was solidly behind and happily enthusiastic about this scenario, not sad or rueful or regretful or ashamed of feeling such glee over his little scenario regarding the economic cleansing that was coming here, as it is everywhere along the “Gold Coast.”
So, yes, Virginia, that formerly assumed Urban Legend is no legend. I asked Mr. Hunter after public comment who was that neighbor, but he refused, for ethical reasons, to divulge his name, though I’ve heard just who it was from several folks, so I can only presume Mr. Hunter wasn’t the only Los Osos resident to hear this gentleman’s happily reported economic scenario.
Ah, yes, only in Los Osos.
Two Down, Five or Six to Go.
Thursday’s Planning Commission hearing again took up the Hideous Sewer Project and in an organized fashion started nibbling down the decisions. First up, Tertiary or Secondary: Hands down 5 to 0, Tertiary.
Second up: Gravity or STEP. After much discussion and additional public comment, including some further input from Dana Ripley, with reference to the so-called “Ripley Report,” the Commissioners voted sort-of 5 to 0 for Gravity. Chairperson Christie stated she had been initially strongly for gravity, but after further study, was strongly leaning towards STEP, primarily for one interesting reason: gravity pipes 23 feet deep leak (all pipes and pipe joints do, sooner or later) and she kept thinking about the environmental damage and financial burden of fixing such a deep leak, until it became clear in discussion that state standards allow a certain percentage of leaks (“discharges”) from pipes. So, leaky pipes are not of particular concern (unless you’re a resident of the PZ; in your case it’s NO “discharge,.”a peculiar anomaly the RWQCB refuses to discuss or explain.) But, in the case of leaky, “discharging” sewer pipes, regulators are fine with it, so the Commissioners certainly weren’t going to fuss over it either. Pipe breaks will cost a bundle to fix, the RWQCB can impose huge fines for “polluting,” especially huge fine, I might add, since a gravity pipe buried 23’ deep can “discharge” a lot of fineable pollution before it’s discovered, so everyone’s happy.
It was also clear that the whole argument over STEP and gravity had been mooted out by the county’s pre-emptive move to eliminate STEP from the plan under review by the Planning Commission by short listing the contractors and limiting the RFP requirements to gravity only, thereby leaving an EIR document under review with a huge hole in it, while pulling an Emily Latella moment: “Never mind.”
And the Planning Commission was happy to oblige because, as was delicately pointed out, if the PC had balked and refused to issue a permit unless it also included full info on STEP , the County could simply appeal that decision to the BOS. (It was a delicate chain-jerking moment, that Big Dog deliciously metallic clank making it clear that the PC had better remember exactly where their part of the porch actually ends.)
Which pointed up another interesting wrinkle in this whole hearing. In usual Planning Commission protocols, there’s the “Applicant” – Mr. Jones – and “The Staff,” and the (Neutral) Commissioners, acting as “judges” in a kind of adversarial procedure, as in, “Did so, Did not, Nuh-Huh, Uh-huh,” after which the Commissioners make a ruling on the points in contention and the “Applicant,” if unhappy, troops off to the BOS to try for a better ruling.
But in this case the Applicant and staff and public and planning commissioners are ALL ONE, since this is a “public project.” Which makes for a kind of odd one-sided, non-adversarial procedure, as in, “Did so, We agree, Yes, Us too, Thank you Me, You’re welcome, Me, Don’t mention it, Likewise,” with the Commissioners left looking around the room for . . . who? Who is there but, perhaps, the public to act as any form of rebuttal or counter any “facts” being presented by the County. And everybody knows that anyone who disagrees with the County’s proposed project is an “anti-sewer obstructionist and general all ‘round urine-swilling, Moonbeam McSwine crazy.” And what Commissioner in his or her right mind would listen to anything they had to say?
As the clock was ticking past closing time, Chairperson Christie added the comment that she could sense the vote would go 4 – 1, and expressed disappointment that the BOS chose to eliminate STEP for the Commission’s real consideration and debate since such a discussion could have allowed significant issues to be brought forward which are now forever short circuited so they’ll never be brought forward. And Commissioner White noted that before they make their final decisions, they could always revisit any section and see if any new information had come up that could change any of their votes to this point.
The meeting was adjourned until May 28, starting time 8:45 a.m. but not known exactly when the Sewer issue will be fitted in until the agenda could be shifted around. Best to check the planning Web site: www.slocounty.ca.gov/planning.htm and track down the updated agendas.
Anatomy of The TV / Talk Radio / Print Media Ratings Game
Day One: KILLER PLAGUE, WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!
Day Two: KILLER FLU STRAIN, WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE! HIDE YOUR CHILDREN, KILL ALL THE PIGS, WEAR MASKS, BE VERY, VERY AFRAID!
Day Three: Flu Variant, May Be More Dangerous Than Normal Flu, Maybe Not
Day Four: Flu Outbreak Likely to Be Typical, Wash Your Hands, Take Usual Flu Season Precautions.
Day Five: BRAD TWEETS JEN, ANGELINA FURIOUS!
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28 comments:
Awesome report, Ann.
Ann wrote:
"Seems Mr. Hunter ran into a former neighbor of his who enthusiastically explained that having an expensive, “unaffordable” sewer for Los Osos would start a process that would drive out the riff-raff... I’ve heard just who it was from several folks..."
So, who is it? Who's the garbage?
"... the Commissioners voted sort-of 5 to 0 for Gravity. Chairperson Christie stated she had been initially strongly for gravity..."
Wanna have some fun with Google?
"Sarah Christie" "Gordon Hensley" -
Long-time buddy-buddies. ("Prepared by: Gordon Hensley & Sarah Christie")
"Day Five: BRAD TWEETS JEN, ANGELINA FURIOUS!"
ooooooo... I wonder if John Mayer's mad?
Ann,
While I do believe that there may be some who would prefer Los Osos become a community of wealth, I don't know of anyone who wants to drive folks out of town just to accelerate that process. Presumably an individual who would think that she could make a profit by flipping a house because of this would be far less optimistic thesedays than they would have just three years ago.
No matter ... the key point is that you started by telling us that you had heard that there were people who felt happy about gentrification but now you have heard that there are people who are happy about gentrification. Seriously, did Hunter's comments give you any new, verifiable, information or were they just another repetition of the often repeated story, personalized as people often do by saying "my friend" or "my neighbor" or "my cousin" because that will presumably carry more weight than "I heard some random guy say" or "I suspect that some people feel"?
Oh yeah ... to Ron .... three things.
1st ... In a small community (like SLO county) nearly everyone knows everyone and, with just 1 degree of separation everyone could be connected to Gordon and Pandora, you should know that your "fun with google" comments really play more as an obsession and as wishful thinking than as any evidence of bias. Heck, I would even be willing to bet that Julie Tacker has met someone who has met Pandora, so clearly Julie is biased in favor of TriW and gravity.
2nd ... As Mike may have suggested, it would be nice for you to look into the question of whether the LOCSD has been duped into paying the lion's share of the PZLDF legal bills ... whether there has been fraud by PZLDF and Sullivan.
3rd ... when are you gonna do a in-depth investigation of the "cheaper" out of town plant which is estimated to run us $50/month more than TriW. Clearly someone was full-o-shit when they told us that out of town would save us money. Ron, who was that and what was their political motivation to lie to us? Clearly with your crack reporter skills you can figure out this riddle and let us know how the "cheaper" out of town plant will cost us $50 per month for 20 years (or about $12000) more.
4th ... I noticed that at least 90% of the comments in your blog this year are essentially attributable to my choice to make comments there and and your deletions and replacements. Without me, Ron, you might just be completely ignored. You may thank me now.
Jeez shark. We got mike telling us your the "man of this blog", now we got you telling us you're "the man" on Ron's blog?
It's enough to make one ill.
Sincerely, M
Yup, Ann, thanks for another story!! Another meaningless, pointless story, and that is all it is - a story - nothing more than Jack's orchestrated compilation of real flippant sentiments.
Jack Hunter, woooo-booooy, way to go, he who provided the planning commission nothing except for a display of his ignorance and ego in public. Seems 'ol Jack needs to go dress down his neighbor. No wonder the LOTTF was nothing more than hot air.
'Ol Jack's story was some lame attempt to derail yet another project, just like his previous yarns were to derail the last project, ho-hum, ho-hum. Thanks in part to Jack, the project has been jacked up already.
And then we have Ann, jumping in on innuendo and psuedo-science. Bwaaaaaahhhhh!! Bwaaaaahhh!! 'Leaky pipes, we can't have leaky pipes' Duh, Ann, even sealed pipes leak, so let's all debate the meaning of leak, and in so doing, we can prove with our psuedo-science and twisted law that any regulation is contradictory where there are leaks in the pipes!!!!
Bwaaaaaaahhhh!!! Do tell, Ann, do you really have a clue??? Ooohh Lucy, Ann's got a looottta 'spainin to do.
Of course Ann has a clue. That's why she won't answer a simple question. How much has she paid in legal fees?? How's that lawsuit going?? Here's some innuendo back at ya!!! Jack 'n' Gail are LOTTF and Ann and Gail are PZLDF so it's all one big conspiracy with Ann as the PR hack aimed at weeding out the riff-raff by stopping a perfectly ok project, imposing your egos and accomplishing what exactly??? Jacked up costs, miserable legal maneuvers, miserable management, miserable columnists. Ann running around writing endless cliches and ideas with no coherent plan!!! OOhhhhh Lucy, Ann's got looottts of 'slainin to do!!!
What? Silence!!! Lotta 'splainin to do Ann!!!. It really is dishonest Ann for you to constantly attempt to install doubt and innuendo, all the while claiming your distance from responsibility. Careful Ann, that riff-raff you drive out just might end up being yourself!!! Oooohh, that'll be some 'splainin to do. Oh Lucy!!!!
Every public works project gets its CEQA review from the agency proposing the project. It isn’t just the County’s wastewater proposal. All California counties, cities and special districts do this. State agencies do it too. Caltrans does the CEQA review for its highway projects. The Water Board reviews its own policy proposals, and so on across the spectrum of California governmental units. Does this mean that governments can give their own projects lighter reviews than private projects? Sure. It happens everywhere, but it is part of the fabric of CEQA and not some homegrown conspiracy. Paavo and Pandora didn’t invent this one.
An individual has on at least 3 times told me some variation of “Let the sewer be expensive, it’ll get the Rif Raf out”. Most recently in front of a witness on March or April this year. This was done in the context of a civil conversation and while I mentioned that I was one of the people who would have to go, no offense was given, this person is aware of the current economic situation, which was what the conversation was about. I chose not to divulge this person’s name, because I don’t see how divulging it could be used by a reader in a manner that would help Los Osos. I at the time did ask about the persons relationship to Taxpayer Watch but have since forgotten
That is my only ethical consideration.
I at the time did ask about the persons relationship to Taxpayer Watch but have since forgotten the answer-What is important to some people means little to others.
While the conversations were semi –private there was no implied confidentiality. And this person (I am assuming it’s the same person, lives in Baywood, but I will not bother to confirm with Mr Hunter) has expressed this sentiment to others, as is clear from Ann’s comment at the end of this subject. Incidentally statistically if Ann got verification from audience members she may had been speaking to a no-sewer proponent.
I am making the point that individuals on any of the seven sides may hold positions that are extreme, and occasionally it is useful to extrapolate from those extreme positions and frequently it isn’t. Mr. Hunter contextualised his remarks. And used the “Story” format. He took an approach intended to give the Commissioners a perspective that would allow them to put some of the vitriol in context.
Telling of a true event in the form of a story does not invalidate its truth any more then stating “such and such is a scientific fact”, does not guaranty truth or relevance.
As for “Dukes” comments, putting parentheses around “leaky pipes” does not make them a non-issue. If you read the state agencies DEIR and CUP responses, primarily the WQCBs and fish and game, you will find that the 7million dollar effort failed to impress them. And since I did personally submit to the DEIR and since my comments correlate rather nicely with the comments by Agencies. I invite you to point to your own “scientific” verifications.
Please Alon... could you verify that, to the best of your knowledge, the Tri-W WWTF and collection system had all the legal government permits to allow construction...???
Tantalizing (word verification =tanized, close but no cookie)
Without further research- Yes, at the time the pre-recall CSD’s project had met the requirements. And though some have presented re -outlying nitrate values and bait and switchiness and backdating of documents, and loan disbursements, in the eyes of the Law the then project had a go. And then something interesting happened (rhymes with the passage of measure “B”) and for a short period of time the temporary halting of the project was legal in the eyes of the law. Some time after that a new Law was signed. And some time after that the county formed a Technical Advisory Committee that looked at various options of technology and location, and that committee did not have presented to it, a consideration of “the Tri-W WWTF and collection system”, at least not the TRI-W (Midtown site) element (though it was not off the table).
During the pre TAC meetings, I’m on record for saying that “There is a worse sewer option than a Tri-W sewer in the middle of town, and that is a Tri-W sewer out of town.” It may come as a shock to you but some time back then I even stated somewhere in a different context “Tri –W is not the worst possible environmental sewer”.
Then again I am not claiming to represent a “Typical” move the sewer viewpoint.
At this time, I personally am not attempting to “stop” or significantly delay the sewer. Just preventing whatever sewer, this way comes, from being worse. Perhaps my comment at the end of my submission to the LOWWP Tannini DEIR can clarify this-(remember this was written Jan 30, before the agencies comments were released.)
“DEIR FINAL DISCUSSION AND SUMMATION
The _Fatal Flaw
Though it is appropriate to use questions, this reviewer is not able to avoid stating that
(and as presented to the SLO counties supervisors) applying secondary treated wastes
(liquid or solid) to agricultural lands or, to replenish a reliable thousands of year old aquifer and a still mostly intact sand filter that created the aquifer, will not work.”No, that’s not it. Wait for it… Emphesis in BOLD is added.. here it comes…..
“The county needs to obtain guidance from it’s own EIR Document. This need is hampered, by this disparity between what the EIR is stating (secondary treatment), and what will more than likely happen, after more delays(Tertiary treatment).http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/Page11149.aspx, under Perlman
Inlet sez:"Seriously, did Hunter's comments give you any new, verifiable, information or were they just another repetition of the often repeated story, personalized as people often do by saying "my friend" or "my neighbor" or "my cousin" because that will presumably carry more weight than "I heard some random guy say" or "I suspect that some people feel"?"
Seriously, Mr. Hunter, a very "reliable source", put on the record, a very public first-hand confirmation on what had perviously been an of-repeated story or rumor. Seriously.
Which, of course, will be followed by the Shoot The Messenger Crowd, as usual.(see above)
Prefix528 sez:"Does this mean that governments can give their own projects lighter reviews than private projects? Sure. It happens everywhere, but it is part of the fabric of CEQA and not some homegrown conspiracy. Paavo and Pandora didn’t invent this one."
Not saying it was or is. It's just business as usual and always fascinating to watch. Same way that the numbers can be massaged one way or the other, depending on who's doing the massaging. Again, always fascinating to watch.
Thanks, Alon, for your observation. Helpful and apt, as usual.
Alon wrote:
"An individual has on at least 3 times told me some variation of “Let the sewer be expensive, it’ll get the Rif Raf out”."
Every time I read stories about driving the "riff-raff" out of town, or fining the town out of existence, I can't help but think about how much Rod Serling would have loved the Los Osos story. A real-life Twilight Zone episode.
I'm going to take a guess... the person that wants the most expensive sewer possible in order to drive out the "riff-raff," is also one of the people that f-d up and listened to Nash-Karner, and e-mailed Roger Briggs asking him to fine not only the CSD "out of existence," but individual property owners, too.
The level of maliciousness, and not quite thinking things through, is similar
Duke wrote:
"Ann as the PR hack aimed at weeding out the riff-raff by stopping a perfectly ok project..."
"I don't remember anything with as many cautions and questions that came up with an approval, than this project."
-- California Coastal Commission member, Toni Iseman, August 11, 2004, discussing the Coastal Development Permit for the Tri-W project.
Ann wrote:
"It's just business as usual and always fascinating to watch."
The best.
M,
I'm not saying that I'm the man on Ron's blog ... after all ... he won't let me make comments there. I do know this ... the only time when I tried to participate is the only time that Ron has gotten comments (and many of those are his ... but even those are more than normal).
I'm sorry you're feeling ill. I hope you feel better soon.
Ann,
My point was really that I don't know Hunter to be someone who would not embellish a story. Alon we know would not. Typically I am reluctant to believe "a friend of a friend" stories because they are quite often ... um ... not 100% truthful, even when the teller of the story believes it and has good intentions.
I do have to chime in agreeing with Duke about one thing ... the folks who argued against TriW in 2004 because it was too expensive are, in some large part, responsible for the increased costs and for pushing some others over the edge, financially. I am sure that these folks did not have that intention, but our costs being higher now than they would have been without a recall is a huge issue.
Shark says:
"I am sure that these folks did not have that intention, but our costs being higher now than they would have been without a recall is a huge issue."
And it is a huge issue that both Ann and Ron have refused to address.
Speaking of Ann and Ron, when are we going to hear from plaintiff Ann how much she has paid for her share of the PZLDF lawsuit, and when is "crack investigative reporter" Ron going to write an expose' on how PZLDF conned the CSD into paying the entire cost of the loser PZLDF lawsuit?
As WM says..."I'm going to keep asking the question until you answer it..."
Cheers,
Real 1
It is funny to me, that Shark, associated more with “get it built already”, commented that he did not expect me to embellish a story, while a well known “move the sewer” activist, accused me of "embellishing" my “league of woman voters” CSD candidate Webpage (no specifics for that accusation given).
Maybe I really am a PNK spy? Manchurian candidate? if the word verification happens to match my secret activation code, I may just go crazy and virtually assasinate someones character?
If you don’t think this is “crazy town", just try running for the CSD.
This gives new context to, "We have met the enemy and it is ourselves". I have high regard for Mr. Hunter, but of course cannot vouch for his activities prior to '04 when I first met him. He told the "let them eat cake" story very closly to how I heard it in first person from (his?) source, so very little of the acceptable form of embellishment (decoration) took place.
I take “Embellishing" in these contexts to be a polite way of saying “Lying”. But, in the great American tradition of story telling, embellishment can be considered, to be a way of making the story more interesting, and also can serve to focus the reader away from the details (in a story that may have true origins), to the underlying Moral message, which is frequently the reason for the telling.
Thanks Shark, and also because,I had hoped to find a good lead in to;
Los Osos Urban Area Legends Redux.I heard this from a person early upon coming to Los Osos. She probably said that she herself heard it second-hand, and confirmed by others (non-point source legend dischargers). I chose to believe, though I added some embellishments (and the neighborhood may not be Cabrillo; septics outside PZ, but no mini-sewer), that there is a grain of truth in this legend;
There was a person living in Cabrillo estates a long time ago, perhaps before 1983.
This person happened to sit down with a real estate broker, and in the conversation happened to ask-“What can I do to increase the equity in my home?” The broker said “You live in Los Osos, don’t you? Well, if the town gets a Sewer, the property values will go up.” The Homeowner replied “ yes, I see, but that would not work for me, since I live in Cabrillo estates and we have our own arrangements, we would not be required to hook up to the Sewer.” The Broker countered with “ You don’t have to be connected. If the town is sewered, all property values will go up". The very next day, bright and early, the homeowner showed up on the doorsteps of the houses in town, with a clipboard, and a petition to get a sewer project started.Independant verification, anyone?
Alon,
Two clarifications ... first, I am more about the "let's go with the option which is most certain and most certainly cheapest" than the "get it built already" faction (or tradition).
Second, I don't view embellishing as lying, per se. In a context such as this one, it is important to not get carried away with blaming or crediting folks for what they might not have actually said. I know that here there have been some who have put words in my mouth (as it were) and then others ran with it. While I don't doubt that there would be some who would want gentrification, I really do doubt that many would be interested in paying $50 or $100 or more per month extra just to achieve that misguided goal.
Instant gratification! (relates to speed of reply. I'm stuck at work with free time and internet to boot.) Shark, Thanks for the clarification. I did take the risk, in that we(here he goes again puting words in people's mouths) understand that there are no real monolithic groupings and while there are dittoheads within the camps. Individual viewpoints vary.
In other words, contributers to the comments section of this blog, are for the most part too knowledgable or intelligent, to allow easy clasifiction. so excuse the mental laziness, I couldn't come up with anything better. I know from your comments here and elswere that your erudition would not classify a single narrow definition on "embellishment" but in context of the string and others' comments, I needed to make that destinction. I agree with your conclusion. Frankly I don't belive the person who said it, paraphrasing "let them eat the cost of the sewer"(for shock value, out of frustration, in reaction to a preception that activists have socialist leanings-whatever.) is actualy wanting to pay more than the minimum of whatever it costs. I cannot argue against the caveat that delays, even in an inverted economy (concrete not as expensive as previous) are going to cost more. And certainly-
If the new project does not exchange a long term benefit for the cost inherant in the delay; then "not stopping the project" is a preffered alternative to "stopping the project".
Now where did I leave the keys to the time machine?
Oh Shark,
You just don't quit!
Selling the Tri-W, year after year, day after day...
Why don't you address the fact that the plant won't correct nitrates for 30-45 years if ever?! ..how could it if the source of pollution is from natural sources and surface run-off????
Mark from the County can't say that it (wastewater system) would help nitrates recently, Dan Berman said the same at the Planning Commission, hey, even Stan and Gordon said it. Of course, the soil experts have said it too. The Tribune printed the RWQCB study and said the pollution was from farming and run-off.
Don't you think, or, can you admit that this is all a big hoax to rid the town of not just riff-raff, but everyone except the top 10% of the very wealthy...and you, of course, you weren't assessed, were you???
Isn't Bob S.'s home up on the market now for a couple million? He sat on TAC, sold everyone on the most expensive gravity project money can buy, and now wants out of the PZ? What, the noise? What, the destruction and chaos? What, the bill?
Yep, the story is true. The riff-raff -- I mean 80-90% out of town so all the homes come on the market at once and the realtors cash in. Don't we just love the Starlings group? Van Burden? Hmmm...
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE WATER FOLKS! ...
IT'S ABOUT THE LAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From the sublime to the ridoculous.
currently by my count;
Tri-W; Dead,will not re-animate even if it smells brains.
Ripley Plan; RIP, and so young, such promise.
Tonini sprayfields; vomiting blood. (L) pupil fixed and dialated (R) pupil constricted, partial response.
Affordable Sewer; Spontaneously aborted.
Actually GRO, if those individuals who said 30-45 years belived that there is NO septic nitrate contribution to the groundwater they would have just gone with "or ever".
Of course septics pollute the ground water, just not at a rate that would compete with a slipped Gasket on an eight inch Gravity sewer line, undiscovered for x numbers of weeks (or years). You also left out the contribution that the allowed construction post problem (moratorium) adds in the PZ.
And of course Osos septic nitrates enter the Bay, just not at a rate that makes them worth worrying about. The nitrates from other sources overwhelm the Osos contribution,; the Farms including the Organic farms, the ranch houses (Pharmaceuticals and Coffee too) the reclaimed water from the Moro Bay golf course that once coursed through the vains of Men's colony inmates. Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera.
All that (AND THE KITTS study) makes pollution to the Bay a non issue from an actual preservationist point of view. (and still a real hot topic for political "environmentalists" who are willing to talk "science" and "Experts say" and "National estuary")
The groundwater will continue to receive nitrates and other contaminants from those "out of the PZ" septics (dependant on depth to groundwater and on "perching", and implementation of AB 885 or equivalent). Like, forever.
The post recall CSD tested the upper Aquifer and found Coffee carbamazapine, and every thing else under the sun, in the groundwater wells.
But how much? and how much coffee and pharmaceuticals does secondary, or even tertiary treated water contain?.
Even the waterboard allowed the plan, very conservative, less than 7 mg nitrates to be applied to Broderson where it would very quickly (and therefore, without additional critical ground contact processing),swiftly mix into water that has less nitrates.
Heck we could inject "Avian" directly into the lower aquifers and not see a difference for decades.
Siemonsen? the Evil Genious behind all this? what's the diplomatic way to say "absurdly insane"?.
GRO UP!
So right and yet so wrong (or is it the other way round)
if you know where the leaders of the conspiracy live then it's not much of a conspiracy.
If I had 2 Million to spare, it's a nice house and Bob did a very nice job of contributing his work to make an access to the Audubon Lookout. He may had contributed some land too.
How about you GRO? done something good for Los Osos lately? claiming 90% moving out? well, I claim it's 95% percent, so there. I win. I'm a better whatever you are then you.
Yes it's about the LAND but, like in the movie Chinatown, if you dont work out the incestuous relationships correctly you end up watching the bad guys get away, and yourself the tool of destruction of what you loved.
We are ? on the same side? but dagnab it, I've spent so much time (sucsessfully by any LO measure) keeping the water board on its toes as per science, why should i sit silent when some self proclaimed environmentalist/social activist butchers same.
My email is open source I probably know you, contact me and let's work it out, confidentiality respected.
Anyway, thanks for the fine example of embellishment.
Inlet sez:"I really do doubt that many would be interested in paying $50 or $100 or more per month extra just to achieve that misguided goal."
Actually, the majority of people who responded to the survey are willing to cough up up to $50 bucks MORE a month to get the system they want: i.e. gravity. If the majority of those answering the survey were, like you say you are, interested only in the cheapest possible cost for the sewer, they would have said so. They didn't.
Inlet also sez:"My point was really that I don't know Hunter to be someone who would not embellish a story."
I do know Mr. Hunter and he's not someone who would "embellish" (i.e. lie) about a story, most especially NOT on the record, in public, with his name, face and reputation on the line. What's interesting about the "Riff Raff" story is the in-context meaning of it as it pertains to the overall "Los Osos Sewer Saga," something which Mr. Hunter made clear at the BOS before he spoke, but which, apparently, some of folks commenting on this (or merely trying to discredit the messenger?) chose to forget. It is the "voice" of Mr. Riff-Raff that's truly of interest -- what that "voice" says about the moral landscape of Mr. Riff-Raff's soul/worldview. That "voice, I hear often in several "regular" anonymous commentors on this site. They think by being "anonymous" that "voice" can be hidden. It can't. It's as revelatory as a magnifying glass. And it's constantly fascinating to me. Creepy, but fascinating.
And Alon, yep, your narrative and observations connect some key dots very well indeed. For example, this observation:"Of course septics pollute the ground water, just not at a rate that would compete with a slipped Gasket on an eight inch Gravity sewer line, undiscovered for x numbers of weeks (or years). You also left out the contribution that the allowed construction post problem (moratorium) adds in the PZ."
That's what's been so fascinating about this whole saga, the Humpty Dumpty use of words and meaning. Septic tank discharges "pollute" the groundwater = BAD, but a sewer pipe, under engineering standards and state codes can "pollute" the groundwater = GOOD. A building moritorium must be imposed because of an overburdened water basin BADBADBADBADEEEEEKKK! HOWEVER, right after the moritorium is in place to save the basin from BAD overbuilding, we will now issue 1,000+ MORE building permits, including septic tank permits, all of which are now GOOD.
Crazy World? Indeed. And this,"if you dont work out the incestuous relationships correctly you end up watching the bad guys get away, and yourself the tool of destruction of what you loved."
Ah, yes. And most interesting of all, The System sets up legal requirements that the various regulators must "look at" X,Y,Z, but there is no legal requirement that they actually have to "see" what they're looking at or connect the dots or even to follow out the dots to logical conclusions or to oxymoronic Mad Hatter foolisheness. Instead, lots of leeway to look away. Lots of leeway for the final shrug before the hands sweep the whole thing off the table. Move Down! Move Down, More Tea! More Tea!
Alon wrote:
"Ripley Plan; RIP, and so young, such promise."
That's true, and, again, if you're keeping score at home, that was the FOURTH sewer system that the Solution Group/1998 - 2004 CSD Board/Save The Dream/Taxpayers Watch types have torpedoed in Los Osos.
So true, and SO awesome. Check it:
#1) The county's 1998 "ready to go" project -- tossed in the trash dumpster in early 1999 by the newly elected CSD Board/Solution Group members in favor of their DOA "better, cheaper, faster" project.
#2) The DOA "better, cheaper, faster" project, tossed in the dumpster in late 2000, because it was never going to work, as predicted by a bunch a professionals BEFORE the LOCSD election.
#3) The forced-fit-to-cover-up-the-fact that the "better, cheaper, faster" project failed SECOND Tri-W project, tossed, understandably, in the trash in 2005, because it was also never going to work, because, as I first exposed, the only reason it was permitted in the first place was through four years of "bait and switchy" lies by the Solution Group/1998 - 2004 CSD Board/Save The Dream/Taxpayers Watch types.
and;
#4) The Ripley Plan -- torpedoed in 2006 by the Solution Group/1998 - 2004 CSD Board/Save The Dream/Taxpayers Watch types, with their scorched earth policy of "fining out of existence," and dissolving, and suing, and... because there was NO WAY IN HELL they were going to allow their replacements to fix everything in a matter of months, after they spent over six years developing two failed projects, at the wildly unpopular mid-town Tri-W site.
That's four systems.
And, you know what? Since the county isn't going to build their ridiculous "sewer-park" in the middle of town either, it looks like the Solution Group/1998 - 2004 CSD Board/Save The Dream/Taxpayers Watch types are well on their way to torpedoing a FIFTH sewer system for the town.
But I know, I know, everyone BUT the Solution Group/1998 - 2004 CSD Board/Save The Dream/Taxpayers Watch types are the "anti-sewer obstructionists."
Welcome to the crazy, upside-down world of behavior based marketing.
"Trust the Truth!"
GRO wrote:
"Isn't Bob S.'s home up on the market now for a couple million? He sat on TAC, sold everyone on the most expensive gravity project money can buy..."
Don't forget that Semeson was also a Solution Group member, AND a former LOCSD Director, partly responsible for throwing some $25 million and six years at the wildly unpopular, failed Tri-W project... THEN he was appointed to the TAC.
Best... story... EVEERRRR!
...Ron and Ann keep sticking their heads in the magic sand... along with Alon... It dosn't seem to matter to these folks that the State Water Board has said, and backed up with a judicial ruling, that Los Osos is required to eliminate the septic tanks... PERIOD...!!!!
Wring your hands and cry all you want, a sewer, not a wrecklamator toy septic tank, not a Ripley what ever that CSD wanted, but a sewer will be coming to Los Osos... The delays only continue to allow one million plus gallons per day of sewage to pour through the kitty litter and into the aquifiers... Beat your gums about nitrates, nitrites and caffine, it doesn't matter folks... There will be a sewer, not just a septic tank farm... All the noise we're hearing is the bleating of those who only want more delays... So keep cheerleading and pointing out your favorite bad guy of the week..., but there will be a sewer...
Consider this, the Tri-W MBR limited development of Los Osos... ANY sewer treatment outside Los Osos frees up development all around Los Osos... I would not be surprised to see the Ag Land disappear and housing developments appear along with Naciamento water... But isn't that what you want...??? No WWTF in Los Osos... yup, inspite of the best efforts of the LO Extremists, development and tax money go hand in hand...
...hmmmm, maybe I've been wrong all these years, what I thought to be obstructionism, was only a grassroots push to develop Los Osos...!!!! WOW, what a revelation, we can have big box stores, and real subdivisions by Centex and Pulte, maybe even a nice 5,000 home Del Webb community... Our CalTrans friends have fought the sewer so long, I overlooked their job security Plan, a 6 lane expressway all the way up the valley and on over to Morro Bay... We can have nail salons and real estate sales offices, banks and a PetSmart... maybe even a few parks.... We just might become a real "town"...
WOW... Ann, I'm sorry I've misjudged you and your PZLDF buddies... I still wish you would pay back the CSD for paying for your lawsuit.... But, oh well, life goes on, soon the big regional sewer farm will give us all the room for development that even Edwards could want... Yipee, I can't wait to Lisa and Julie on the end of a shovel, breaking ground for their very own Jenny Craig building...
Hi Mike!
Just think - all along people "thought" they were obstructing a sewer, when actually a select few knew that they were actually gathering unsuspecting troops for promoting growth! I think we didn't guess who was behind all this protest! They certainly have aided the cause of economic cleansing! Chew on that speculation for a while GRO!
No one has commented on this yet, but it was very interesting to watch Ripley backpedal like mad when asked questions at the Planning Commission hearing. I find it VERY interesting that this has not been commented on by blog owners (maybe their profound disappointment in Ripley has led to an anguished silence?).
The "not enough cleaning velocity" myth was put to rest (now we know where that idea came from - Ripley).
The "no damage by directional boring" myth was put to rest.
When Ripley was asked about the cost on the collection system by Sarah Christie, he said that it was difficult to isolate the collection system numbers from the rest of the project (where HIS numbers on that very collection system were worked into the County's plan with no protest from Ripley until just now!).
Ripley says he has been following the Los Osos sewer issue for 25 years (and gee, he WROTE the Ripley Report, didn't he?) and then when asked about the problems of space regarding the location of septic tanks, he said he wasn't the expert on retrofit, that Mike Saunders (not present and pointed out to be an equipment supplier) was that "expert." He didn't answer her question.
The half-day installation for the new tank (remember - only a half a day without a pottie?) was suddenly not guaranteed.
It was pointed out that a contractor could not guarantee the delivery of permanent easements to the project - that was a function of government, namely the RWQCB and their "big stick" methods or the courts - Eminent Domain (not a popular concept in Los Osos)- and that the legal costs to get those easements did not show up as part of the costs for the project.
Well, I'm sure that there were other points, but even with this recounting, step, as presented by Ripley wasn't quite how it was represented to the community earlier.
It was telling - that in the process of "short-listing," it is expected that if your group didn't make the cut, you would appeal. This is a normal part of the process and done all the time. The group Ripley consulted for did NOT appeal. Since they are the contractors and not about to give "engineers'" estimates, but contractor guarantees, perhaps this is where the reality of the expectations asserted by Ripley all these years could not make the transition into the cold, hard reality of a guarantee, so they backed out.
Ann says, regarding the present lesser cost of Tri-W as opposed to the higher cost of out of town:
"If the majority of those answering the survey were, like you say you are, interested only in the cheapest possible cost for the sewer, they would have said so. They didn't." (Meaning Tri-W only got a 15% "preferred" return rate.)
How was Tri-W ever represented to Los Osos by the County in sewer design costs? On a "level playing field" where all the sunk costs of design, land acquisition, and permit costs was not admitted into evidence. How would anyone know the cost as it wasn't compared in REALITY.
Why not? It is a given anyway that the out-of-towners had poisoned Tri-W to the point that the County KNOWS better than to go there, there is no point to even try. Cost be damned. Apparently step was as hated as Tri-W, no?
Ann says that SC says:
"…disappointment that the BOS chose to eliminate STEP for the Commission’s real consideration and debate since such a discussion could have allowed significant issues to be brought forward which are now forever short circuited so they’ll never be brought forward."
What "significant issues" at this point have NOT been brought forward? Were step people saving something "really important" for - well ----when?
Sewertoons asks:"What "significant issues" at this point have NOT been brought forward? Were step people saving something "really important" for - well ----when?"
You'd have to ask Sarah Christie what prompted that comment. Also, Mr. White noted that they could always revisit this gravity/STEP issue if anything later came up that warranted a second look, so they must have felt that perhaps there actually were some quesitons left to ask.
Missed The Point Again Mike sez:"Ron and Ann keep sticking their heads in the magic sand... along with Alon... It dosn't seem to matter to these folks that the State Water Board has said, and backed up with a judicial ruling, that Los Osos is required to eliminate the septic tanks... PERIOD...!!!!"
Yep, Mike missed the point, again.
Missed the point AND got his info wrong Mike sez:"Consider this, the Tri-W MBR limited development of Los Osos... ANY sewer treatment outside Los Osos frees up development all around Los Osos... I would not be surprised to see the Ag Land disappear and housing developments appear along with Naciamento water... But isn't that what you want...???"
"Isn't that what I want?" Gee, Mike,you got that wrong as well as the other stuff.
In the preliminary CC memo, they have made a very, very specific point (shot across the bow) of limiting the size of the treatment plant to ONLY serve the PZ,( just like Tri W )did so as to prevent ANY service to ANY new housing, thus limiting growth, just like Tri W did.
Finally, Gets It Wrong Mike sez:"Ann, I'm sorry I've misjudged you"
Ah, finally, you got that right.
Toonces sez:"The "no damage by directional boring" myth was put to rest."
Both gravity trenching and directional boring have their settling issues under re-surfaced roads and both will have areas needed to be re-fixed.
And, "The half-day installation for the new tank (remember - only a half a day without a pottie?) was suddenly not guaranteed"
There may be well half-day or more delay problems with the gravity hook up as well, not to mention don't flush for days if and when pipes break and need fixing & etc. Comes with ANY sewer system.
And," It was pointed out that a contractor could not guarantee the delivery of permanent easements to the project - that was a function of government, namely the RWQCB and their "big stick" methods or the courts - Eminent Domain (not a popular concept in Los Osos)- and that the legal costs to get those easements did not show up as part of the costs for the project."
Enforcement from the RWQCB is not Eminent Domain. The county would not pay a penny for any of that squabble, the individual homeowner will. (remember the Los Osos 45? They're on their own) And near as I can tell, Toonces, don't you support the RWQCB's CDO enforcement against evil pollutors?
I thought Ripley's suggestion absolutely an elegant hoot! Homeowners could sign on and give the same kind of easements we do for gas lines, power lines & etc, or the county would just bypass them and leave them to the tender mercies of Roger Briggs so they could be "fined out of existence" ($5,000 a day retroactive to 1983 and jail time, after which their now foreclosed house could be resold and the new owner calls the county, installs the tank and runs the lateral and hooks up. Problem solved.) Hey, sounds like a swell plan to me.
Toonces also sez:"The group Ripley consulted for did NOT appeal. Since they are the contractors and not about to give "engineers'" estimates, but contractor guarantees, perhaps this is where the reality of the expectations asserted by Ripley all these years could not make the transition into the cold, hard reality of a guarantee, so they backed out."
I never thought Ripley was a fool. Only a fool would have "appealed" when the county has made it absolutely clear that under NO circumstances would they go with STEP, no matter what. They even "sort sheeted" the planning commission before they could weigh in. Signal doesn't get any clearer than that. And, remember, the survey showed that the majority of the community that bothered to return the survey wanted gravity as was willing to cough up $50 bucks more to get it.
So The Process has worked as planned. Sure there were some interesting thumbs on that scale and at the table, but the public has had a long opportunity to check in, put their eyes on the documents and decisions, and let their voices be heard all along the way. What happens now (and what has happened from the start of this Process), is and has been in the hands of the community. It's their choice,it will be their bill, which is exactly how it was supposed to work.
And Toonces sez:"How was Tri-W ever represented to Los Osos by the County in sewer design costs? On a "level playing field" where all the sunk costs of design, land acquisition, and permit costs was not admitted into evidence. How would anyone know the cost as it wasn't compared in REALITY.
Why not? It is a given anyway that the out-of-towners had poisoned Tri-W to the point that the County KNOWS better than to go there, there is no point to even try. Cost be damned. Apparently step was as hated as Tri-W, no?"
Ah, good questions: Why were NO prices for ANY system put on that survey form? There were hi-lo guestimates on the TAC, but zip on the survey. Why? Thumbs? Spin? Nudging? Resulting in pig-in-a-poke choices? Take your pick.
Well, no matter. The people of this community had the info there or could see the info that went missing, so it was their responsibility to decide if that was acceptable or if they required further or better info -- like maybe prices? Clearly 60% couldn't be bothered with any of this, and 40% who returned the survey made their choice. So the community will get what the majority of that 40% wanted. As I said, The Process worked as planned and community has chosen and then they'll get the bill.
Alon,
You said, "Actually GRO, if those individuals who said 30-45 years belived that there is NO septic nitrate contribution to the groundwater they would have just gone with "or ever"....."
I guess I didn't make myself clear, the only people who said up to 45 years were Gordon Hensley and Stan.
The experts don't say that. Like Dr. Ruehr, Dr. Alexandar, Wade Brimm, Spaulding, etc. say farming and surface run-off. I think it was Dana Ripley that said if you just take horses out of the equation we'd be okay. And a recent test away from any houses showed 10. So, what does that say? Common sense would say it's from natural sources.
It's all a big hoax. The realtors and food chain will profit, while so many will suffer and have to leave -- all for nothing.
Say what you want about Bob S., Pandora, Julie & Jeff, and the rest. I say that they're evil, just like the RWQCB who heaped this on Los Osos to keep MWH bringing in the big bucks.
Lynette,
You wrote, "I think we didn't guess who was behind all this protest! They certainly have aided the cause of economic cleansing! Chew on that speculation for a while GRO!..."
Lynette, you are such a dope -- that's what I've said all along -- move the same sewer out of town, a big trick on the community thanks to Jeff & Julie, and let's not forget about Gail.
And, why don't you ask Pandora why she had to sell the formation of the CSD on ponds at Tri-W? She KNEW there wasn't enough space and that the RWQCB said NO! But, of course, that's what she had to do to sell the community on forming the CSD to let the County off the hook after the USEPA told the County their project was too expensive and further testing needed to be done-- and of course, the County would have had to do a Prop 218 vote and knew that wouldn't work for them.
Yep, Pandora's plan was all based on a lie, just like the so-called nitrate problem (and the millions of gallons a day from the RWQCB bullshit).
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