Rock 'em, Sock 'em, Part II
"When the Microphone Went Dead, Part II," wherein retired Judge Martha Goldin finishes her remarks to the BOS, at http://www.rockofthecoast.com/
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Calhoun's Can(n)ons was originally published in 1990 in the (now defunct) Morro Bay, CA, Sun Bulletin, and since 1992 has continued in the various resurrections of the Los Osos, CA. Bay News, Bay Breeze, Bay News, Bay News-Tolosa Press. A few years ago, the Can(n)on was added to the Central Coast NewsMission blogsite. Ann Calhoun lives in Los Osos. You can email her at Churadogs at gmail dot com
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162 comments:
Aaron,
I watched the CSD meeting last night and your speech was real good.
Who are you going to run against?... Maria or Bruce Gibson (well, either way you've got my vote!)
...and thanks for all the recent stories in the Rock!
I would likely vote for Aaron even though I often disagree with him. Why?
Because anyone who is thoughtful and careful and not prone to exaggeration but willing to change his mind when he sees evidence that would convince him that he had been wrong ... anyone like that would be a good leader.
I guess it would all depend on who the other candidates are and how the campaign went down.
I suspect that some Los Osos local lightening rod personalities, if they were to get involved ... even in a limited way ... would really tend to play havoc with the results ... witness the last two election cycles. Some folks told us that Maria was beholden to Gordon while we all saw Chuck campaigning for Karen. With "information" like that available it would be really easy to make decisions based on perceived politics instead of what the candidates actually believe and say.
I would also be pretty willing to vote for Alon even though I don't always agree with him. Same reason.
I guess it just goes to show how wise Joe Sparks was to avoid the TW crowd (who wanted to campaign for him) and to make it clear that he was entirely independent.
So glad I'm not one of the Los Osos local lightening rod personalities, Shark
Ed?
Since the transcript is provided and is self evident, I take that the word that rhymes with "rudely" represents an editorial comment rather than a purely "Journalistic" one?
but let's see what happened at the Waterboard friday instead.
“All he had to say was, ‘It appears that Miss Schicker’s complaints have no merit – so far.’ He should have waited and reviewed everything before giving legal opinion on the record,” she said, “rather than appearing to be judging me or the carefully sourced and referenced information I presented in good faith as a responsible citizen and former elected district officer.”
But he chose not to...
Things that make you go hmmmm.
The legal merit of the information presented will not be decided on this Blog.
Wodrd verification (with space added)
"ou that"
Alon,
"Rudely" seemed about right.
Gibson cut off her microphone.
He cut it off on the word "Harza."
He cut it off on a former Superior Court Judge.
He cut it off on a woman.
He cut it off on a senior.
He cut her off because she is not a Tri-W supporter.
He could have given leftover Los Osos minutes but it cut her off.
He cut her off because she is from Los Osos, the worst crime of them all.
..no, Ed, you and I know she was cut off because she was just wringing her hands and crying again in her normal obstinate manner as were all the other sewer obstructionists... They (you?) were only trying to make a mockery of yet another meeting just as they have done for 5 or 6 years... the only purpose being to create some further fracture to point the further delay with no end in sight... We had a legally designed and permitted sewer until the extremists lied into office...
We are still being lied to by those few, take a look at the PZLDF "agreement... tell us Ed, what a wonderful "agreement" that was... You can't, because it was just another lie...!!!!
Sorry Ed, Martha Goldin was wrong, is wrong and certainly does not show us that she could have ever been a very effective judge... She certainly does not sound like a knowledgable sewer expert or even a government process expert, let alone a judge.... If she really knows civil law, let's hear her explain why the PZLDF/CSD "agreement" was anything but another lie...
Fraid not Ed.
The conduct of the meeting was constrained by the preconditions. those condition applied to anybody wishing to speak about Los Osos Sewer Issues during general public speach. Former Judge Marta challanged the ruling by speaking directly to Los Osos sewer issues, as was clear when she said Monkey Harza. He did not challange her when she said she was going to speak to process, because it is possible to speak to process without specifically mentioning Sewer issues.
It takes FINESSE to challange a chair and be allowed to continue speaking. I know, I've been there,and I've done it, and for tougher customers than Bruce Gibson. And I'm not a woman, nor a former superior court Judge, and though I am older than dirt I am not a senior.
I hope you are not so biassed as to suggest that, a former Superior Court Judge,a woman, a senior, should be given preferrential treatment. As for "He cut her off because she is not a Tri-W supporter" hummmm... Well we don't have a Tri-W supporter speaking during non-Los Osos public time and being, or not being cut off, so we'll never know.
Supervisor Gibson, having established "a non sewer-Los Osos general comment time", was required to enforce it. Your complaint should be against the decree rather than against it's enforcement. had he not enforced it, his establishment of the rule would had been ludicrous. Any Tom Dick and Harry would show up. As you clearly stated Marta had an unrestricted opportunity to speak the following week.
What Marta did by forcing the Issue is to cause a constraint on those people coming after her wishing to speak on issues tangential to LO and Sewer, and also limiting those wiley enough to "slip into Sewer talk by the back door".
I'm just not getting the Martyrdom, the Drama, the devisiveness as being what Los Osos needs right now (or ever for that matter). And the Contractor conspiracy should had been presented fully and finally at an earlier stage- Request for Qualifications-perhaps
The Rule of Law exists to protect the free speech of citizens. sometimes citizens abridge the rights of other citizens.
Why even Al Barrow thanked The Waterboard last friday for "Interrupting a person for speaking off topic".
Some of the people reading this may not know of the regard in which I hold you, but I'm afraid I'm in this business for the same reasons you are. I can't allow myself to stand by idely while the people of Los Osos are being misled, manipulated and controlled. Will I be rewarded by having my Character assasinated? of course! no good deed goes unpunished. I hope you are not tempted.
The Whole county watched the last few debacules. Finesse anyone?
Word verification-"ouscs"
Second word verification "wagutable"
Wag the dog?
Mike wrote, "You and I know she was cut off because she was just wringing her hands and crying again in her normal obstinate manner as were all the other sewer obstructionists."
Actually, that's incorrect. Bruce Gibson cut off Goldin's microphone because Gibson felt that the 10 minutes to speak on items pertaining to Los Osos was already up, when in actuality, only two of the speakers before her utilized that time, leaving her the three minutes of public comment and one minute remaining.
That may be your opinion, but that wasn't what actually happened.
And Alon,
This is not an issue of preferential treatment. This has been an issue of fairness. Given the conditions I gave to Mike, do you think Gibson's handling was fair?
Also, you're not making much sense. I've had to read every one of your posts about 4-5 times before I can properly translate it into English dialect. Please be more concise so that it appears that you're knowledgeable of the subject.
Aaron... You need to put a "few" more years on you before you try talking like you really know what you're talking about when talking down to your elders, we have been around and have paid our dues.... you still have much to learn about life, politics and sewers... Mike
As a former judge, Martha Goldin should understand better than anyone the need for order and structure in an official setting. She would never have tolerated that behavior from anyone speaking before her bench.
She did what she did solely to cause the stink she did. She wanted to make Bruce look like he was infringing on her free speech even though all he was doing was enforcing the rules. He had called an end to LO public comment before she came to the microphone, she knew it, and spoke about LO anyway.
Her behavior was appalling for a person of any age or occupation. What an embarassment to her profession.
For the record, age is only a number.
Source: When the Microphone Went Dead (Part II), The ROCK"The irony in all of this is that only two speakers had utilized the chair's 10-minute Los Osos speech rule... When I got up to speak, nobody else had spoken on Los Osos, so six minutes were gone and I started. Theoretically, there were four minutes left for Los Osos, the prohibited speech. Instead of allowing me the three minutes or asking again if anyone else wanted to share the four minutes or doing anything that might have amounted to reasonable process, the Chair again prohibited me from speaking in violation of his own – in my opinion – unconstitutional 10-minute rule."
Approaching this from a legal perspective, Gibson started to recently enforce a rule, which was an extension of something already in place (Rules of Procedure, Section III.B), which allows the Chair to provide 15 minutes or any reasonable period of time per Public Comment period. The Chair had designated 5 additional minutes to speak about Los Osos so there is 10 minutes to speak about it in the morning and 10 minutes to speak about it in the afternoon.
Out of the 10 minutes in the afternoon, two speakers utilized those minutes and each person is allowed a maximum of three minutes for public comment. 2 x 3 = 6. There was four minutes remaining. Without closing Public Comment, without asking for a show of hands to see if anyone else was to speak on the subject, Gibson invited Goldin to the podium. Violating his own rules, he cut her microphone and that, in my eyes, is far more unprofessional than a retired judge having a strongly held opinion.
If you're not a judge, don't lecture about how appalling her behavior is given the circumstances she was in.
Gibson had no further slips requesting speaking time on LO so he closed public comment on the subject, Aaron. The only slips he had left were for speakers wanting to speak on general public comment for items not on the agenda, and it appears Judge Goldin knew it.
Don't lecture me about criticizing a supposedly professional judge for abusing the process, in my opinion, for the sake of "theatre".
Until you've actually held a job as a manager in a professional capacity, you really have no room to criticize Bruce Gibson - or me.
A BOS Meeting is not a Court Proceeding.
Judge Goldin knows what she is doing, even others do not.
Aaron,
You are laying down way too much dispassionate common sense.
Would you please cease and desist your very logical reasoning and discussion.
Judge Goldin knows what she is doing, even if/when/though others do not.
It boils down to an issue of whose words are more credible: Gibson or Goldin.
I don't know what she put on her slip as far as what she was going to talk about, but typically, she's consistently been on topic regarding Los Osos. Gibson should have been more prepared. 10 minutes is 10 minutes.
It's not that I have a predisposition against Gibson, but I'm not going to take his word on everything and leave it at that.
I like it when people say, "Unless you're in their shoes, don't criticize them," because they never take into account that the criticism is based on the decorum that the public is exposed to. Your argument would have more credence if I were judging Gibson based on matters discussed -- or events that occurred -- privately or in closed session.
Many Americans have said, "George W. Bush was a bad president," but you know that not every critic has been the president of the United States and not every critic of the Bush administration has served in the executive branch.
Not every sports commentator has been a professional athlete.
Using a more localized analogy, not every critic of the SLO County Board of Supervisors has served as a supervisor or a similar administrative position of government.
Your logic needs a little more fine-tuning, Realistic1.
Realistic1... You are so very right about Goldin only acting for the "theater"... She apparently still needs her weekly 2 or 3 minutes in the spot light...
We can only hope she was a much better judge than she is the over-the-hill melodrama queen...
Given the performances we've seen from Goldin, maybe the obstructionists have valid concerns that judges are corrupt...or at least incompetent...
Alon,
Good, clear explanation of your position. I won't pick at it, but will share a few points where we differ profoundly.
You are swinging way too far in the opposite direction, giving 'preferential treatment' to Gibson, who created the bogus 'time-limit' issue in the first place.
First he breaks his and County's promise to carry STEP through design-build, then suppresses public comment when people in danger of losing their homes complain about it. That's a double whammy and can't be tolerated. It borders on harassment.
You say she was infringing on Los Osos issues and eating into others' time. I say she was talking about corruption off the agenda, and Gibson could have offered her the leftover Los Osos minutes but he didn't. Why?
Because Gibson and Paavo are married at the hip and serve MWH -- and he flipped out and cut off her microphone because he didn't want a former Superior Court judge raising the issue of stopping the process because of the potential or appearance of conflict of interest.
Gibson turned it into a protest because he has an itchy trigger finger oiled with the sweat of guilt and had to stop her on the word "Harza." Cutting off the mike is the act of a coward for whom free speech is an anathema.
Gibson the Dictator was ready for her the following week, when he and Counsel Jensen were forced to issue a preliminary finding that was premature and incomplete, to say the least.
Gibson is digging a big hole for himself, and it just keeps getting deeper and deeper. And he did it all by himself ... with a little help from his friends.
Gibson has shown an extreme amount of patience, as did Patterson... but the same character actors continue their same retoric of badgering, threatening and just plain saying anything in the very obvious game of trying to do everything to delay any sewer, any where and certainly at the highest cost possible...
That's the bottom line... DELAY, DELAY, DELAY...
Goldin is just one of the sewer obstructionists with her now very tired and very same bullshit... She should be ashamed to even admit she was once a judge... She has never offered anything positive toward the much needed project, only her hand wringing and whoa-is-me act..
Foe those who belive Goldin is some kind of legal mind, get her to explain the PZLDF not paying it's share of the failed lawsuit....???? Why did the community paying the entire PZLDF legal fee of some $320,000...????
If Goldin wants to show the community she is more than a has been judge, then let explain what Ann has ducked...???? I'm not worried about how poor Mrs. Goldin got cut off, I'm really pissed that the Chuck, Lisa, Julie, Gail and Ann lied to the community over that "Agreement"... A flat out bold-faced Lie....!!!!
Forget Goldin, show us the money that the previous CSD stole and paid for the PZLDF's legal bill...!!!!!!!
I wanted to elaborate on what I said earlier. I just want to preempt the claims that I was applying some sort of double standard.
I wrote to Realistic1, "If you're not a judge, don't lecture about how appalling her behavior is given the circumstances she was in." When you make a statement like, "What an embarrassment to her profession," that establishes an assumption that the person saying it knows how a judge should act inside and outside the court. What we saw for that one meeting doesn't and should never be a means of judging how effective of a judge she was when she served.
Also, on another note, without dismissing the legitimacy of the grievances against PZLDF, I must say that PZLDF is completely irrelevant compared to the issue at hand. To keep discussing it over and over and over again shows a very narrowed focus and a lack of understanding of the bigger picture.
Gee, all this angst over a completely untrue and not relevant issue. Within a week or two this topic will be just old news; with all that motion resulting in nothing.
Did anyone else notice in the last CSD board meeting several 'public speakers' telling the board not to settle the MWH v LOCSD lawsuit?? THAT topic has never been discussed publicly by the CSD board or Staff. Seems to me that if that topic was discussed that it have been during closed session and not privy to the public. Seems to me that there is a 'leak' on the board telling closed session discussions outside the meetings. If this is so, not good!
-R
The focus needs to be put right smack on those individuals who are continueing to derail any sewer project through any means...
Continueing damning Paavo and Gibson and attempting to nitpick the very preliminary County Plan and the Process is the problem with this whole sewer issue... The obstructionists are well known to the community, they just need more publicity to show the community and indeed the county, just who and what these few individuals really are... Gail should be the top of the list, followed by Lisa, Julie and Chuck.... They are doing nothing to solve a community problem...!!!! It's not the County or the State who are the bad guys here....!!!! It's the PZLDF crooks and the theft of District Funds, it the CSD5 and the theft of District Funds...
I'm not afraid of the County or the State stealing from me, actually, they have been more than fair in my experiences with them... I am concerned that a handful of want-a-be sewer lawyers and engineers can rob this community... Don't you have any remorse for the financial burden you have heaped on this community.....???????
Glasses and hearing aids for all!
Quack and Fib...Quack and Fib...
Why consider anything new?
A sufficiently motivated person who spent years working with law knows a thing or two about "process" or they would not put their reputation on the line needlessly and without tremendous consideration.
There is Law and then there is Order.
Aaron,
Sorry, but it doesn't take a JD to know how a judge is supposed to behave. Judges are held to a higher standard of decorum, both in and out of the courtroom. I would have expected better behavior from someone who no doubt demanded proper decorum in her own courtroom.
By definition, judges are supposed to be unbiased and unemotional. They make decisions based solely on the rule of law - no emotion involved. I don't care that she wasn't in a courtroom. She was in an official meeting of the County government which has established rules of decorum. She appeared to deliberately violate those rules and then rudely challenged Gibson for enforcing them. She would never have tolerated the same behavior from an attorney making a case before her and Gibson shouldn't have to tolerate it from her, or anyone else!
She may have felt she had a valid complaint (though from watching the exchange live on TV I don't believe she did), but every attorney and judge I have ever encountered in my professional life would have found her method of dealing with it totally out of line.
This is the kind of behavior that makes every agency dealing with Los Osos dread seeing our business on their agenda. If more people conducted themselves the way you did at the last meeting, perhaps the "powers that be" would be more inclined to listen.
Judge Goldin and many others could take a lesson from YOU.
"There is Law and then there is Order."
Any way you slice it, judge Goldin was out of order.
Then there is Law and without Order.El Suphre!
Aaron, you said:
"What we saw for that one meeting doesn't and should never be a means of judging how effective of a judge she was when she served."
Show me where I ever criticized her performance as a judge.
R1, your pronouncements could carry a little weight if you “Get Real” and give us your name.
If you don't you appear like "sorry, I forgot his last name" Lynette.
I've told you before, Mark - as a non-Los Osos resident your opinion on any subject means nothing to me.
Have a great afternoon.
"R1, your pronouncements could carry a little weight if you “Get Real” and give us your name."
When you were kissing up to someone named FOGSWAMP on the last thread, Marky, did you say that?
Didn't think so.
Now, you wouldn't be so hypocritical to assign weight to anonymous posters you agree with and not others you don't, would you?
Not you Marky, right?
Realistic,
Judges and lawyers, contrary to popular belief, are human beings with feelings. Your profession is not who you are.
You can criticize Bruce Gibson, for example, for his decision-making and logic as the chairperson of the BOS, his profession, but when you call into question his personal integrity (i.e. the chair of SLO Surfrider), he takes exception to that. That questions who he is and he'll often break out of that professional decorum to address the questioning of his character, but I haven't seen you take that into account on this blog.
In other words, if an "obstructionist" does it, shame on them, but if the people you support breach the rules of decorum, then it's the obstructionists' fault. See what I mean? See where I'm going with this?
Don't feel that I'm being disrespectful to you. I'm not. I'm just saying that you've unintentionally been turning the other cheek for so long when it comes to the behavior of the people you support that your judgment of others outside of your circle of trust is clouded.
Also, I was referring to Mike's comment ("Martha Goldin was wrong, is wrong and certainly does not show us that she could have ever been a very effective judge") when I said, "What we saw for that one meeting doesn't and should never be a means of judging how effective of a judge she was when she served." I was not referring to you nor anything you said.
And Richard,
I was the one who initially brought up MWH in closed session public comment. The fact of the matter is that the litigation with MWH is common knowledge. A long time ago, it was posted on one of the agendas as an agenda item that would be discussed in closed session.
No leaks here, sorry.
"In other words, if an "obstructionist" does it, shame on them, but if the people you support breach the rules of decorum, then it's the obstructionists' fault. See what I mean? See where I'm going with this?"
Aaron,
I never called Judge Goldin's integrity as a person (or a judge) into question. All I did was comment that her behavior in an official setting was inappropriate and as a retired judge one would think she'd know better.
Sorry, but I don't believe Bruce was out of line in this case. We must agree to disagree on this one. Gwen Taylor spoke immediately following Judge Goldin on essentially the same topic. She avoided anything specific about Los Osos or MWH, speaking only to process - and Bruce let her speak without interruption. Had he interrupted her, I would have said his behavior was out of line.
And, for the record, I have NEVER turned the other cheek when anyone who shares my views behaved the way that Judge Goldin did. It's inappropriate in an official setting, no matter who does it, and I would be the first to speak out against it. Rules of decorum exist for a reason in a courtroom, a BOS chambers or a corporate boardroom and everyone should adhere to them. Tantrums from anyone undermines credibility - period - no matter who does it.
Mike,
You say about Judge Goldin, "She has never offered anything positive toward the much needed project, only her hand wringing and whoa-is-me act.."
Please explain why you say "much needed project".
What's the rush?!
If a system won't correct nitrates, what's the rush?
If a system would only increase home values (ha ha), what's the rush? Home values won't go up for some time, and won't go up while any construction and chaos is going on.
What's the rush?!
Construction costs ARE down, no matter what YOU say, what's the rush?!
Judge Goldin has offered a lot. She doesn't like throwing water out of Los Osos, she's worked for a sustainable project. What's your problem with that?!
And, BTW, if the RWQCB didn't want pipes out of town for Step and talked out leaks and odor control a few years back, then why would the County put their current favored project as preferred?!
Why waste millions of our dollars?!
Yep, the County has done a real great job!
I say it looks very much like "the more they spend, the more people they drive out!!" That's good for Van Burden and Starlings, but not too considerate of the LO homeowners.
All this is more than okay with you. Nice, real nice!
Willy: Glad to see I have raised your awareness.
A blind mouse by any other name is still a blid mouse.
R1, aren't you a retired Men's Resort worker?
If so, I understand about "turning cheeks"...
A blind mouse by any other name is still a blind mouse.
Realistic, you wrote, "What an embarrassment to her profession." I read that as, "Once a judge, always a judge," like she is what she does.
We can agree to disagree, but I'm not trying to convince you to change your mind. I'm just trying to broaden your scope on the issue.
If I were Gibson, I would say, "Ms. Golden, I apologize if there was any misunderstanding, but I feel it's my fiduciary duty to ensure that board business flows smoothly. If you want to talk about the Los Osos wastewater project, I suggest that you save your comments for when we do the monthly project update. You will have your three minutes. If you have any grievances, please contact my office or e-mail me and I'll clarify my position."
If he did that -- or if he started to conduct the meeting in that fashion -- then Gibson would come across as being diplomatic and approachable. What he did was, in my opinion, not the best way to handle the situation. It's always good to consider alternative scenarios to see if there could have been a better outcome.
True, tantrums undermine credibility, but what happens when someone takes your voice away?
Richard,
You say, "Seems to me that if that topic was discussed that it have been during closed session and not privy to the public. Seems to me that there is a 'leak' on the board telling closed session discussions outside the meetings. If this is so, not good!..."
Richard, it is pretty obvious that this CSD board would settle with MWH to pave the way for them to get the entire project.
It's all a "fix" remember?!
They would have to settle. That's one of the reasons Maria and Marshall are on the CSD -- to do things just like that. Again, obviously, they work entirely for the County.
Sounds to me like you are getting closed session info, or why would you say this?! Hmmmmmmm...
GRO: What a "rush"...You are hitting the nail on its head!
MIKE needs glasses and a hearing aid, even then he is deaf and dumb to anything that resembles a challenging thought.
I'm still waiting to find out about his Florida research and whether his freinds and family ever determined what city or town they live in (Phoenix is not in overdraft).
Hi Aaron,
Yes the MWH vs. the LOCSD lawsuit has been pending since 2005; that is common knowledge.
The lawsuit has been the topic of numerous closed session BOD meeting since then. As to what was discussed was not reportable to the public (including occurrences in the last closed session too.) Never have I heard one word or suggestion about 'settling the lawsuit' in the last 3.5 years....nor was such an idea ever raised at any CSD meetings.
However, all of a sudden comments come from the public about resisting 'settling'? It is reasonable to take the position that an apparent breach of closed session confidentiality has occurred; and that breach must be sealed for the protection of the CSD.
Let me put it this way. I do not have a clue if 'settling' was ever discussed in closed session. But as a past CSD director such discussions occur all the time. By my experience it seems odd to me that this 'issue' comes up NOW after so many years of silence. Not only that, but your comments were very specific as to WHY such lawsuits SHOULD NOT be settled... why not WHY it SHOULD be settled? A clear 'agenda' is suggested by your taking a stand on an issue that has not officially agendized or discussed by the CSD Board.
Now Aaron, I am not suggesting you are responsible for the leak. Such a thought never crossed my mind. However, it is apparent that you (either knowingly or not) have had access to leaked information given by another. I do not care who that 'other' is....but the 'other' should be more respectful of CSD closed session confidentiality protocols.
-R
R1- Almost everyone working to solve the septic tank discharge in the PZ does not live in the PZ.
None of the supervisors, Mark H or John W or Richard LeGros or any of the RFP "people" live in Los Osos.
Blogs are tough business and things get flushed.
Please remember this one is a hobby of mine.
Anyone seen or heard from "sorry, I forgot his last name" Lynette lately?
Leakage, If the county accepts the project and buries bell and spigot, better get used to it.
"If I were Gibson, I would say, "Ms. Golden, I apologize if there was any misunderstanding, but I feel it's my fiduciary duty to ensure that board business flows smoothly. If you want to talk about the Los Osos wastewater project, I suggest that you save your comments for when we do the monthly project update. You will have your three minutes. If you have any grievances, please contact my office or e-mail me and I'll clarify my position."
Aaron,
Bruce did exactly that when he set the rule in a previous meeting. Several speakers have done their level best to challenge him on that rule, and he got fed up. Like Judge Goldin, Bruce is human.
No one took Judge Goldin's voice away. She chose to express it in the wrong forum, and behaved badly when Bruce called her on it.
R1: Your opinion(s) regarding Judge Goldin, do not hold water...
Real,
You say, "And, for the record, I have NEVER turned the other cheek when anyone who shares my views behaved the way that Judge Goldin did...."
What I find interesting Real is that your "side" doesn't have to show up at any meetings (only Joyce at the Planning to read Pandora's speech on why they should go back to Tri-W) -- but your side knows the planned fix. They don't have to show up at any meetings to plead for their lives. How does one behave when pleading for their life (especially when the BOS acts like nothing is wrong with 50% of homeowners having to leave their home) Tell us please.
Who wouldn't plead for their life? Bruce Gibson has given 10 minutes to plead. How nice of him.
Gibson took Step off the table after Blakeslee and the County promised to consider alternatives. They promised this to pass AB2701 and the 218. They lied -- obviously.
After they dropped that bomb on April 7th, Gibson takes a stab at eliminating descent about it the week after with his 10 minute rule. Wow.
A planned fix for Tri-W, a planned fix for MWH, and spending millions of our money for nothing. How can anyone say that these people aren't totally corrupt?!
I ask again, has this gone on in this County so long that you people think it's normal?!
Mark says - "R1- Almost everyone working to solve the septic tank discharge in the PZ does not live in the PZ."
Mark, you are not working to solve the septic tank discharge problem. You are not a player in the process by any stretch of the imagination (except maybe your own). You are doing nothing but promoting your own self interests.
Don't be an ass. The other folks you named are either County or local government officials (past or present) who either have actual jurisdiction or a long history of local involvement in an official capacity. The RFP folks were invited to become involved because we lack local expertise and ability to build such a project. They are, you know, actual experts.
Richard may not live in the PZ anymore, but he was involved in the County process before there was a CSD, and as a director was involved in every phase of the Tri-W project. He has a body of knowledge that the Los Osos "arm chair experts" can only dream of.
Blogging is tough business? Dude, you need to get out more.
Tough, tough, tough.
I guess you did spend your career behind bars, eh?
I remember Richard telling us there were 20+ more miles of sewerage in the "out of town" location and just recently that USBF Clarifiers are 30 feet tall.
I don't believe that he could be more incorrect about both of those pieces of the puzzle and he is your hero?
See what I mean about flushed...
GRLO,
"My side" spoke at the ballot box when we voted to give the project to the County by passing the 218.
I'm fine with the County process. I don't need to show up at meetings to tell them so. I expressed my views in the survey. Wherever they put the treatment facility is fine with me. Turri Rd, Cemetery, Tri-W. Whatever treatment technology they use is fine. I DON'T CARE. As long as it's a gravity collection system, and the water comes back to the basin, they can do whatever they want with the rest.
BTW, where is the rest of "your side"? I only see the same 8 or 10 people, saying the same thing over an over again, claiming to represent us all.
And when did the number of displaced get to 50%? First it was 20%, then 30%, now 50%. Where are the facts to back that up? Or is it just more hyperbole? If I heard correctly (from her own mouth), Judge Goldin doesn't live in the PZ and hasn't even been in the community that long. She wasn't pleading for her life - she will not be one of the displaced. Her behavior at the podium was appalling. Los Osos gets free reign at the podium when the project is on the agenda. She could have stuck to the rules and she wouldn't have been shut down. She should have saved those comments for the day when the project was on the agenda. No one is trampling on our right to free speech about the sewer project. All Gibson is doing is making sure anyone else having business with the BOS actually has an opportunity to speak without having to endure the never ending tantrum that is Los Osos at every single meeting.
lastly, I find your paranoia about the "fix [being] in" just plain bizarre. You see corruption around every corner, you distrust everyone and everything. I find that very sad.
Aaron,
One last comment for tonight. You wrote:
"Realistic, you wrote, "What an embarrassment to her profession." I read that as, "Once a judge, always a judge," like she is what she does."
My brother was a decorated Naval officer. He served our country for three years as a drafted soldier at the end of the Vietnam war, then re-upped to the Navy as an officer candidate after completing his master's degree. He was a full Commander (and veteran of the first Gulf war) when he retired 20 years later.
Even after his retirement, when in any kind of setting traditionally requiring decorum, he conducted himself as if he was still in uniform, representing the military. He didn't walk around announcing he had been an officer, but he still behaved as if he was, no matter what. You see, Aaron, my brother WAS what he did for a living. Once an officer, always an officer. I suspect most judges feel the same way about their profession.
If Judge Goldin wants us to forget what she did for a living, so she can behave however she wants, she shouldn't remind us she's a retired judge every time she steps up to a microphone. Perhaps if she stopped doing THAT, people would ratchet down expectations as to how she should conduct herself at official meetings.
Have a good night.
Here are my last comments for the night.
Martha Goldin, and her husband Leon, have expressed their concerns like everyone else. I haven't seen anyone here -- as of yet -- really talk about what she said. Rather, the focus was on her demeanor and I believe that focus is very narrow. Sure, you can talk about that, but you're also getting in the habit of discrediting people solely on the grounds that you detest their mannerisms. That takes away from the facts. That takes away from what really happened.
Here's what really happened. Bruce Gibson mismanaged the time, interrupted a former judge twice -- which is not the brightest thing to do -- and cut her microphone when she was about to say "Montgomery Watson-Harza." Did she make a stink about it? Absolutely, but should her protest negate her message? I say no.
I personally feel that Gibson could have handled the situation much better. Am I a member of the board? No, of course not, but common sense prevails enough -- in this situation -- to provide an informed observation.
Realistic, your brother served his country and as part of his military creed, he conducted himself as a man in uniform. Even though he was a soldier, he was a human, made of flesh and bone like you and I. Every one of us expresses our emotions differently and we should never be bound by the typecasts set by our professions.
To Richard:
I personally arrived at the scenario that the CSD could settle with MWH because settling would be a way for MWH to place a bid with a clean slate. I logically arrived at that scenario without leaked documents, hearsay from other board members, no eavesdropping during closed session, nada.
Because MWH is now on the shortlist, I think people arrived at the same conclusions on their own. You ask, "Why now? Why after all these years?" You know why. The County brought them into the process and they beat out the competition to make it on the design-build RFQ shortlist. Those who are aware of the district's current litigation are also aware that MWH is pending litigation against them. 1+1=2, Richard.
MWH, by their own doing, made themselves relevant again.
'Nighty-night.
R1: A BOS meeting isn't a courtroom or a battlefield.
The Supervisors are public servants and should consider that every time they take public comment.
It's tough to ignore these facts.
As Aaron helps to illuminate: Judge Goldin knows her rights and what she is doing...be patient.
BULLSHIT...!!!
The BOS are NOT "SERVANTS"...!!!!!
That's where YOU and the handful of others are dead wrong... Your ignorance of working with the public and with governments is appalling...
How the handful of sewer obstructionists are acting in front of the BOS is similar the way they acted to pre-recall CSD... The back-lash now occuring is in recognition of the disrespect these few individuals have show at all meetings with government agencies... They are not the law or decision makers, mere disruptive civil criminals...
Hi Aaron,
I will accept your explanation; but please realize that it is completely reasonable (under the circumstances) to suspect that information has been leaked from closed session.
As for the recent MWH brouhaha, nothing will become of it.
Nothing became of it back in 2005 when Lisa raised the same issues. The materials facts have not changed; nor do legal opinions suggest or support the idea that improper acts occurred.
Do not forget that Lisa, who failed to get the DA to act in 2005to press criminal charges, had the authority and board support to have the LOCSD file a civil lawsuit against MWH. She / the LOCSD did not. As she / the LOCSD did not, the folks who believe that there is a 'case' against MWH should be very angry at Lisa for failing to act and protect them back in 2005.
-R
Richard wtites: ..."it is completely reasonable to suspect" and "nothing will become of it".
Richard,
The "act" continues...
MIKE: If they are not public servants, please tell us what they are.
The Supervisors are public servants and should consider that every time they take public comment.
Phoenix is not in over draft.
BTW MIKE, do your friends and relatives actualy know what city or town they live in?
Did you find out yet?
How is your Florida research going?
How was your drinking date with "sorry, I forgot his last name" Lynette?
These are issues you raised so pleae don't say that they are too tough to discuss.
BTW MIKE, do your friends and relatives actually know what city or town they live in?
Did you find out yet?
These are issues you raised so please don't say that they are too tough to discuss.
"Sure, you can talk about that, but you're also getting in the habit of discrediting people solely on the grounds that you detest their mannerisms."
Good Morning, Aaron:
This will be my last comment on the subject. I don't discredit people because I detest their mannerisms (although I do detest bad behavior in such situations). I don't need to. They discredit themselves. The histrionics of many, many speakers on the subject of Los Osos over the years have discredited most, if not all, of their commentary.
Who do you think they are going to listen to? Wild-eyed ex-directors floating totally unsubstantiated claims of impropriety? Retired judges throwing temper tantrums at the podium?
No. They are going to listen to well prepared, even tempered speakers who state their case in a civil, organized fashion - and who follow the rules.
As I said before, those unhappy with the County's program could take a lesson from you. Perhaps they should provide you with their concerns, cede their time to you, and have YOU speak for them. I suspect you'd get a lot farther with the powers that be than they ever will.
I appreciate your thoughtful replies - hopefully someday we'll be able to converse about matters far more pleasant than this mess.
Have a great day.
Cheers,
Real 1
Och's Nation on Twitter:
"Mongomery Watson-Harza plays dirty in the mud and Paavo says, "Oink!" while Maria Kelly can't keep her story straight."
Aaron, perhaps you can explain what you meant with this statement over on your blog?
Lynitter: Any word on "sorry, I forgot his last name" yet?
You are solely responsible for handing me that winning card which shows just how dishonest you really are.
There really may be a "sorry, I forgot his last name".
I'll keep asking to give you the benefit of the doubt.
“Any CAO would automatically be satisfied with a RECLAMATOR installation/septic tank replacement.” -- Markus Low
"Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness..."
Which one is it Markus?
And let it be known I'm not defending anyone. I just find your constant spamming poor blogging etiquette, and annoying as shit.
So I'll meet you spam for spam.
Willey,
Colin Rigley's words-"Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness..."
Don't hold water.
As I have stated several times already: I will provide an interview on that issue, with a reputable publication at some point, so be patient, or not…
My words: “Any CAO would automatically be satisfied with a RECLAMATOR installation/septic tank replacement.”
Refer to a possible WB clean up and abatement order (CAO) that would be satisfied once an onsite treatment that denitrifies to below the very arbitrary 7mg/l monthly limit set by the WB in the PZ is installed, while leaky sewer will not, Willy.
Interesting how you think that the "sorry, I forgot his last name" Lynette issue, is spam.
It does however demonstrate your particular brand of bias, which is very useful to me.
Keep it up, I Love it!
I Love LO
Willy, (sorry, for the "e" in Willy, Willy.
Colin Rigley's words-"Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness..."
Don't hold water.
"Interpretation" is what help sink the Tribune...
Too bad Colin didn't print all or part of the email he "felt" would back up his contention.
But that is another issue for another time...
Lynette,
"perhaps you can explain what you meant with this statement"- sorry, I forgot his last name...
I'll keep asking unless an until you respond, partly because it's the correct thing to do and partly because it's my hobby and because it is useful.
Public officials are, by definition, public servants, but they're not ideal public servants given that they put the self up on the highest pedestal and often make their constituency a second or third priority.
Lynette wrote, "Aaron, perhaps you can explain what you meant with this statement over on your blog?"
Sure, tune into the blog tonight around 5:00 PM to see the accompanying article.
Aaron,
I see that your education includes solid definitions.
It's a shame folks like Willy rely upon their feelings instead of a dictionary.
It would be smart for Lynette to get the inevitable out of the way...sorry,....
Realistic1, How about Richards "I have f****** balls" retort? Now there is some decorum. This is the man we are supposed to highly respect? In the capacity of an elected official, "I have f****** balls".
Sincerely, M
M,
After being verbally attacked from the peanut gallery at the back of the room for two solid hours, Richard lost his temper. That being said, he was out of line and I told him so the next time I saw him. Don't believe me? Ask him yourself.
I don't hold people who agree with me to a lower standard of decorum. Bad behavior is bad behavior - period.
The Statewide Sanitary Sewer Order is a first-of-its-kind regulation in the nation which attempts to address the serious problem of California’s deteriorating sewage collection infrastructure. The State Water Board has undertaken a difficult but important challenge in improving the operation and maintenance of sanitary sewer systems statewide. Implementation of the Sanitary Sewer Order represents a considerable paradigm shift for many Enrollees in the management of sanitary sewer systems. Enrollees are now required to plan, document, and execute specific actions to properly operate and maintain their sanitary sewer systems. While staff has expended significant effort to start up this new regulatory program, improvements in implementation are necessary, and much work is yet to be done. Staff is confident that the Statewide Sanitary Sewer Order will be successfully implemented through current and future planned efforts. The Statewide Sanitary Sewer Order represents significant progress in attempting to address the water quality threat posed by SSOs.
The Sanitary Sewer Overflow (SSO) Reduction Program is scheduled to begin the SSO General WDR Program Review, May, 2009What a great time to ask for the SLO City and SLO County flow reports.
I continue to be amused by the amount excuses offered by the peanut gallery.
20+ miles of extra sewerage to transport the sewage out of town and 30 foot high USBF Clarifiers...
SHEESH...
So I guess that moment with Richard should just be shrugged off then. No harm no foul huh? I remember the rancor of the meeting.
Of course, peoples lives were being severly altered during the proceedings. One might expect some rancor.
Sincerely, M
Aaron, Dude
Just caught your expose (May nine?) on Maria Kelly over at your blog.
Dude, I know the woman , you may have caused her to bust a kidney.
Lying on her kitchen floor laughing uncontrollably. And who is going to take the kids to soccer practice, huh? Did you think of the unintended consequences?
M.... and just standard should those who verbally abused, threatened and lied to Richard and the other Directors be held to...???? Is it ok to be a perfect asshole as long as YOU are the one screaming at the Directors...??????
M..."if" YOU even attended any of those CSD meetings, then you would have seen the crap the Directors had to put up with... Theyhad other business besides listen to the insanity surrounding the "move the sewer".... YOu should have been appalled back then instead of bringing up a moment in time caused by hours and hours of out of line baiting... much the same as what the BOS is putting up with today.... It is no wonder that Gibson is laying out some rules... I applaud him for having the courage to tell the LO Obstructionists to sit down and shutup...!!!!!!
There is absolutly nothing more that will be learned from listening to the ax grinder, the cheerleader and the angry ex CSD Director... The whole handful are merely wasteing the BOS's time...hopefully they are not able to create any further delays....
So, M.... go sit down and contimplate YOUR role in creating the division and growing anger in this community....
No, M. The moment was not shrugged off. It was beat to death every day from the time it happened until a year after the recall. It happened four years ago and is old news at this point.
Judge Goldin's tantrum happened, what, a week ago? Two weeks ago? It has been the subject of two columns on The Rock's website since. It's the top story on Ann's blog. Still current, still relevant. I told Aaron I was done commenting on it - and now I'm telling you - bad behavior in an official meeting is inexcusable whether it's Richard, Judge Goldin, Bruce Gibson or the fools at the back of the room at CSD meetings.
Have a good night.
My new blog article is up. WARNING: It's spicy!
I'm going to respect Realistic's wish to not discuss that issue any further -- and I ask that people do the same. It's come to a point that we're beating on it like a dead horse.
R1 wrote:
"Judge Goldin's tantrum happened, what, a week ago? Two weeks ago? It has been the subject of two columns on The Rock's website since. It's the top story on Ann's blog. Still current, still relevant. I told Aaron I was done commenting on it - and now I'm telling you - bad behavior in an official meeting is inexcusable whether it's Richard, Judge Goldin, Bruce Gibson or the fools at the back of the room at CSD meetings."
Just so long as you are making one more comment after being "done" commenting I have a parting thought for you to consider:
"Not discussing it, won't make it go away"..."Suppose Judge Goldin is correct and the law isn't being followed?"
Real,
You don't answer my questions or address issues that I've raised, you just call me a name. That's all you've got?!
As far as how many have to leave when the most expensive sewer on the planet comes, factor this:
35% of the elementary school students are on the federal family's below poverty school lunch program
...and U.S. Census data shows 32% are seniors with an income of about $12,000. a year
So, I have to ask how many people can afford to stay?!
...looks to me like a very small percentage!
Real,
One more time:
How does one behave when pleading for their life (especially when the BOS acts like nothing is wrong with 50% of homeowners having to leave their home) Tell us please!
So Aaron-
Maria Kelly campaigned as being pro-county process, and now when she follows through, you have a problem with that? Wow. Yellow journalism, indeed. I wonder what Maria really did to piss you off.
Follow through how? Winning? No, that's not the problem that I had.
She seems to represent only who she chooses to represent: the County and her supporters. Her divisive comments was something I took exception to.
You can probably say that my comments toward her were equally divisive and extremely negative, but it's necessary. If I went up to the podium and said, "I ran against the process and won because of it by a significant amount, deal with it," people also would find me being snobbish and divisive.
It's bad politics.
While I do think that Aaron is off base in his criticism of Maria, one of his points is well taken. Whenever folks from the winning side in an election get up and say "you lost, get over it" it is a huge mistake. Even if it is true (the loss), saying something like that dismisses the very often valid concerns of those on the losing side.
I don't think that this was at all what Maria was saying, however. I think that you have perhaps misunderstood her intent.
Lynette,
Have you asked Maria to help you with "sorry, I lot his last name", yet?
Sue,
Have you located that "tape" you thought you saw "sorry, I lost his last name", yet?
Shark makes my article sound like a "sore loser" argument, but it's not the case.
In respect to full disclosure, I worked on Karen Vendetti's campaign in late 2008, but since Maria Kelly won in a fair, democratic process, I've happily accepted that she won.
In light of her comments recently and her comments to me, it tells me that she tips the scales toward the process itself more than the people. She ran her campaign supposedly based on promises to alleviate the district's troubles and help the taxpayers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
With that said, I'm looking forward to whatever debates spring forth from the article.
Lighten up on Judge Goldin's cont
entious behaviour. Haven't a lot of good people done that now and again?
What we should look at is what drove the person to that point.
I still remember a member of our local LOCSD board coming unglued when a heckler said he had "no balls". He went off and blurted out that he did in "fact have balls". I am sure Gordon and Stan wanted to crawl under the table about then, but Stan hammered him down.
It was probably Al Barrow that blew him off as he has a bad habit of doing that to sane folk at times.
Could it have been the recent blatant lies and contensious behaviour of Bruce Gibson and Paavo that drove her to get into his face a bit?
I am sure many many folk in town would like to dress them both down in a more physical manner for swearing to us in writing they were going to give us numbers on alternatives and then telling us to go to hell our statements weren't carved in stone.
Several interesting things to comment on, but only briefly for each.
GetReal, I thought that the easily available census tables were for the whole of Los Osos and not just the PZ and that furthermore, there are both age distribution tables and income distribution tables but I didn't know that there was a table showing both age and income. Could you let me know where I would find this information?
Secondly, I don't believe that a full 50% of folks in the PZ would be forced out, but I would find it easy to believe that a third would be ... and for those folks, there is a built in incentive to fight against the current plan ... not because there is something better or less expensive on the horizon but because stalling tactics would allow for additional delays in the already far too high payments.
Aaron, I don't see your argument as a sore loser argument ... just that you are picking on potatoes so small that the rest of us think they're grains of rice. If you think she favors the process over the people it suggests that you view the two as in opposition. I think that her point (and mine as well) is that the people in town largely support the process and that folks who want to bring up all sorts of issues which will again stall and delay are in opposition to the will of the people.
"The People" have lawful septic tank permits, but have not received scientific proof that their specific septic tank is the source of the "alleged" nitrogen overloading in the arbitrary PZ.
“Voting” doesn’t alter these facts.
Shark
You state that "the people in town largely support the process".
I am at a loss to understand which town you hang out in.
As a business person in Los Osos I am in contact with many people on a daily basis and that is not the signal I get.
The majority of the old timers I meet would hang Bruce Gibson and Paavo Ogren from the nearest tree for their dishonesty.
I guess they are just "old fashion people" and want to see some numbers before they buy something.
How can you support and spin for folk that don't keep their word?
Funny Swamp, I talk to many, many people in Los Osos too, and almost to a man and woman most are embarrassed by the sewer fiasco, are disgusted by the displays of those vocal few who attend BOS meetings each and every week and make a mockery of Los Osos, want the sewer built and done with and out of their lives, want nothing to do with replacing a septic tank with ANOTHER septic tank and the incredible property upheavel and on-site costs involved with STEP, and whole-heartedly support Bruce Gibson, Paavo, and the county process.
There you go. Which town did you say you were from?
And not surprisingly I wonder how you can support and spin for these people as well.
Fogswamp,
Maybe for some reason the folks you interact with in business just feel free to criticize the County and the process. Your suggestion that Gibson and Ogren are dishonest sort of tells us that you would be open to hearing comments along those lines.
I daresay that there are some business people who hear exactly the opposite ... that they are frustrated with the "Los Osos regulars" who continually show up at the BOS meetings just like they did at the CSD meetings beforehand.
Among those I interact with in town, the vast majority keep their feelings about things-sewerish to themselves, but there a sizable number on both sides who feel very comfortable indicating their support or opposition to the County at this stage. Of those, I would say that about 60-80% I interact with (and I tend to be pretty closed-mouthed on the matter unless people ask me directly what I think and haven't already indicated they have a strong feeling one way or the other) are of the "get-r-done" mentality.
Those "old fashion people" who want to see numbers before buying something are probably disappointed with each and every decision by the folks in Sacramento and DC as well because more often than not decisions need to be made before all the numbers are finalized because the cost of getting solid cost estimates is so darn high.
Ann wants the Chinese menu approach but perhaps doesn't realize that the prices could only be displayed with a +/- 50% margin of error unless we all agree to bite the bullet and pay for two $20M designs.
As for the County keeping their word, I am troubled that most of those who are saying such things as that today are also the same people who supported the gang-who-couldn't-shoot-straight post-recall CSD. With no additional information I would be naturally predisposed to trust the County over their critics in this case.
You do have a really good point that trusting the County blindly is a mistake, but I still haven't seen evidence that the County is doing a bad job. Certainly the TriW project had some benefits and drawbacks compared to what the County is proposing and the key here is this ... are you happier with the County plan (as a package deal) than TriW?
To suggest that there is a plan which is considerably better, faster and cheaper won't fly with this crowd. We've heard it before and we don't believe it unless there is some demonstration of superiority. That being said, I would think that criticism of Ogren and Gibson would be most productive if there are concrete ideas attached.
The sealing of pipes as you mentioned is a good idea to discuss as would be an increased rate of sending water back into town for aquifer recharge. And if we're gonna go with tertiary, why not put the plant closer in? These considerations are worth getting public input on, but please realize that it is more the CCC and RWQCB and SWRCB and Army Corps opinion that matters at this stage.
This is one key reason I tend to get irritated when Ron writes of stealth plans to morph a project and such tripe ... the permitting agencies required nearly all the changes that were made from the original design ... but by the time these forced modifications were announced, some other decisions had been made earlier to choose a site and the like.
Nope, no one will get everything they like ... but there is one way of making sure that everyone gets something they dislike even more than the current plan ... file a lawsuit!
Word verification: rondora
Word verification
It's funny that people who often talk about the "majority" of the community supporting the process only have anecdotal evidence.
I suppose the number of people who voted for the 218 are "anecdotal people?" The 218 DID pass, those people supported the County process. The people who did not vote surrendered their voice and as to why they did that is anecdotal.
Billy Dune & Shark
Your both right, how silly of me to want to compare numbers and call people when they say one thing and do the opposite.
How rude of me.
Please accept my apology.
Has anyone heard Bruce Gibsons motto for his next election running?
"Delusion-as-the-Solution-to-Polution".
Lynette,
Do you know for sure if, "sorry, I forgot his last name" voted?
He probably voted just like you voted Markus.
"If folks can't or qon't stand up for their rights "someone else must". Enter the AES DES LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution and those "someones" associated with it. There are more than meet the eye, on that you may rely."
-- Markus Low
"Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness..."
Which one is it Markus?
Willy,
I answered your "question" above.
When you write: "He probably voted just like you voted Markus." it suggests that you too believe that there is a "sorry, I forgot his last name".
We should get "an answer" from Lynette about the statements se entered into the record all by herself.
If she was instructed by someone else she should be forthcoming about that as well.
Keep up the quote harvesting; re-reading my statements is a sound use of your time.
As I stated previously, my statements are self explanatory.
We should get "an answer" from Lynette about the statements she entered into the record all by herself.
If she was instructed by someone else she should be forthcoming about that as well.
Markus....i could care less if there's a "sorry i forgot his last name" just like i could care less if you burned your business partner or not....like i said, i'm just sick of your spamming.....you have a beef with lynette, take it up with lynette privately...until then, annoying spam for annoying spam my friend....
Try as you may Willy, you cannot protect Lynette from herself.
Of course you care Willy...
Fogswamp,
You are too reasonable for me to let you get away with an over-reaction like that.
Aaron is right. We all think that the majority is on our side. The only data we really have is the 218 vote and, to some lesser extent, the election of Maria over Karen which was a proxy vote on the issue of supporting versus opposing the County process.
Certainly also we should quickly recognize that those complaining loudest about the process are the exact same people who supported the recall and sold us a bill-of-goods during the 2005 election.
That all being said, it would be nice of you to explain the ways in which you view Ogren and Gibson as having been dishonest. That is a reasonable discussion.
Asking to know the numbers exactly before any decision is made is not unless you are telling us that you are prepared to pay lots more just for that right. If you walked into Sylvester's and the prices on their menu were replaced by a price +/- a 50% margin of error, to be determined by the roll of a die ... but for an additional $5 you could roll the dice first for two menu items to know the prices exactly before ordering, would you grin and bear it and fork over the $5 to learn whether the special of the day really is cheaper than your regular order ... or would you just go with what appears to likely be the best deal?
Who would “stay” at a restaurant where they advertised (promised) having a specific item (STEP/STEG) on the menu only to take it off when you came in to order it?
When did Paavo “If there is a technology that costs significantly less, then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away” Ogren consider that: Less costly technology?
Why wasn’t vacuum or grinder pump collection considered like gravity?
What is the likely outcome when those technologies weren’t considered in the alleged “co-equal” analysis?
Where is the concern for government’s lack of responsible fiduciary duty?
"I suppose the number of people who voted for the 218 are 'anecdotal people?' The 218 DID pass, those people supported the County process. The people who did not vote surrendered their voice and as to why they did that is anecdotal."
There are a few problems with that statement.
The 218 was an assessment (albeit a legally problematic assessment) vote, not a "majority vote" pledging support for the County's handling of the wastewater project. "Do we want to assess ourselves for a sewer?" "Yes."
Then we had the RWQCB implying -- and at time outright saying -- that if most people voted, "No," on the 218 assessment, then those people would receive NOVs and that could possibly escalate to C&D orders because the "No" votes would be, in their eyes, an act of defiance toward their enforcement.
Then there's the fact that the assessment votes were made public by the County Clerk and a lot of the "No" voters were concerned about a backlash for voting "No." Quite a few abstained from voting at all.
I would be hesitant in counting the 218 as the "majority" because we, in the Prohibition Zone, were put in a tight-rope situation and people were coerced in one way or another to vote, "Yes" and some people simply wanted a sewer.
There were factors that prevented the 218 vote from being a clear determinant of majority opinion. The 218 was not a "mandate."
Aaron,
I think you are allowing facts to come between those folks who cannot see anything other than the "process is good" and reality.
Shame on you!
Bad habit, I know.
Shift Happens, I know.
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
Albert Einstein
Say it loud, say it clear
Concern for man and his fate must always form the chief interest of all technical endeavors. Never forget this in the midst of your diagrams and equations.
Albert Einstein
Shark old chap
You seem confused as to why someone would want to know how much something costs before they purchased it.
In my case I guess its a good habit I've adopted during my 50 years in business that has served me well, as it has for my many other succesful peer's.
When updating and/or purchasing high dollar equipment we first want know the cost of each system.
Then we compare one to the other function wise.
Then we look at the cost to operate each.
Then we look at the maintence to operate each.
We don't necessarily choose the cheapest system available, however the method gives us all the options up front.
This methodology is taught in our business management classes along with other factors such as depreciation etc.
Repectfully
"Often wrong but seldom in doubt"
Fogswamp, if you made your customers pay for your costing out what you might want to buy, how interested would they be in supporting your business later on? That is what you are asking the County to do to go far enough in planning to get those answers. As a County "customer" - no thanks.
Fogswamp,
I fully understand the desire to know exactly how much something will cost but sometimes that cannot be known exactly.
Take buying a car for example ... you don't really know how much the particular vehicle will cost in the long run with repairs and the rest, but you have a guesstimate of the number of dollars you will be spending total and a guesstimate of the number of years you'll get out of the vehicle and of course a person would choose the best likely deal.
But when the final cost estimates are very expensive to achieve, the likely gain from the additional information isn't worth the cost.
Are you seriously telling me that you want the County to design and move thru the permitting process some two or more collection system/technology/location options as Ann does?
Maybe I've been reading into your words more than you meant, but don't you understand why I would be reluctant when people ask me to pay a whole lot more just to get additional studies and additional cost estimates which won't likely change the best choice?
I suspect that if each of us actually called out an electrician and a driveway installer and a landscaper to see what the costs could be to our own pocketbooks if we went with step, OR had our neighbors tell us the vacuum tank couldn't be in their yard because they don't want it (meaning it would have to be in my yard), there would be NO desire at all for those technologies except from people who have a messed up yard anyway and see no downside to their yard holding the communal tank.
So I guess we'll never know what an alternate system would have cost. We certainly don't deserve to know. We're only lousy LosOsosians. Take whatever they shove down our throats and be happy that we are finally doing something about this god-awful pollution we are destroying our water, community, County, State, Country and World with.
Sincerely, M
Lynette,
Why are you talking about vacuum?
It was never studied and that is a far more interesting subject.
The vacuum works can easily be located in the county's right of way at the front of a property and all power rquirements are not on private property.
Where is the customer's choice for the location of those stinky 22 lift/pump stations, hmmmm?
BTW, how is your search for "sorry, I forgot his last name" going?
Manholes Lynette, 400+/- stinky manholes.
Who decides who gets a man hole in front of their home. hmmm?
Gee M, you sound like a bitter loser... you didn't get your way, so now you'll pout... Go back a few years M, we had a legal sewer project and even you should know it would have worked well...
You just didn't get your way, so you've set about bitching and moaning and trying to create as many of the most expensive delays on your crusade to find "the perfect" solution.... We had a very workable one, but just because you didn't like it, you decided to throw the design and location.... and funding... away... Yup M, you sure helped the community....
MIKE:
Can you say with any certainty where your relatives and friends live?
You were so certain that you did at one point in time.
It will be interesting to see how thje rest of the process plays out...
Like watching Pelosi and what did she know and when did she know it.
It will be interesting to see how "the rest" of the process plays out...
Sharky
You stated "sometimes we don't know how much something costs"
That was your first mistake.
Just ask.
Need I say more?
Fogswamp,
First, are you sure that you're quoting me correctly? I don't remember writing that.
Second, are you asking us to believe that we can learn the cost of things for free just by asking?
Any estimate of the cost of a collection system would be based on the many assumptions about the conceptual design and how it will translate into a final design as well as of how much a contractor will bid for the job. Such estimates are inherently inaccurate.
The accuracy will probably be somewhat less than one would get by asking a mechanic how much the car repair will cost by listening to an audiotape of the sound and somewhat more than asking the CBO to estimate the total bill for the Iraq war.
Shark, I believe she was referring to your comment, "I fully understand the desire to know exactly how much something will cost but sometimes that cannot be known exactly."
If you look at County Brochure 5: Project Selection and Monthly Costs, it reads on page 2, paragraph 5, "The County plans to include a design-build approach for the collection system. This approach will allow private industry contractors of the STEP option to submit bids and compete for the project. The County will prepare a project selection model to compare the submitted bids with a life cycle cost analysis and the community
preferences identified in the community survey."
The County said that we would know what things cost exactly because they would ensure a fair, balanced design-build process, but according to Bruce Gibson, "Things changed."
Someone who is disappointed that the County didn't go with their own plan doesn't make them a "bitter loser."
The community does not want step. What is the point of paying a ton of money to find out the costs of something we don't want? Things changed all right. We ALL were asked what WE wanted and WE answered.
I don't want to hear the tired old retort - the survey was biased. So was the Measure B/recall snafu - actually it went beyond bias all the way to lies. We had to abide by the results of that, and now we will abide by the results of this.
Today's Bruce Gibson meeting at Sea Pines was simply painful. It was almost shut down because certain people were exceedingly rude and insisted on shouting and interrupting. They want respect for themselves, yet show none to others. How these people - step/wrecklamator proponents, (as they happen to be, and no - not ALL out there are rude) - think they could sway people over to their side with such off-putting behavior is incomprehensible. I only show up to give support to Mr. Gibson and Mr. Ogren, but frankly, I'd rather not have to listen to these commenters. I suspect they have driven out people who are interested in coming to these meetings. I have friends that refuse to come with me to CSD meetings because they are just too painful to sit through.
Sadly, they were supporting a benefit for a local entity in need of help. I had wanted to attend, but I just couldn't face any more anger, so I went home.
Shark
Free estimates are given on a daily basis in almost every trade known to mankind.
The process isn't that difficult to understand and grasp.
As a matter of fact the State of California requires it in some trades and the bureau enforces the law. The estimate must be in writing and documented that the customer received same before proceeding.
I just got two "free" estimates to replace a roof on some apartments I own (in the PZ Zone).
Every insurance company in North America requires an estimate prior to any repairs, home or auto. No blank check approach allowed, for good reason.
Estimating (bidding) is part of the cost of doing business.
You're right about accuracy. Most large projects will end up with a supplement, that's a given.
No, the estimate for the Step project is not exactly free, but somehow I get the feeling that even if it was free some folk just don't want to see the costs.
I've even heard that some contractors waive the fee should they be selected.
Watershed Mark
Re - "Stinky manhole covers"
I read on one of the links you blogged that in the early days of gravity systems the manhole cover consisted of a tall hollow lighted lampost!
The maintenance man would climb up and look down inside to see if the ingredient was flowing.
It also served to let the system breath and get the stench elevated
a wee bit.
The idea was abandoned because the hole was too small to crawl into for maintenance.
Aaron wrote: Someone who is disappointed that the County didn't go with their own plan doesn't make them a "bitter loser."
That person would be a concerned citizen with their eyes, ears and mind "wide open".
Sewertoons
Was Bruce wearing a disguise?
I'm surprised he showed up at all.
Fogswamp,
Okay, I get your point.
The problem here might very well be that at this stage we're talking about hiring a contractor to do a design which will then need to be bid out. At the last stage there is bidding. I don't think any company is gonna provide for free a design that they would normally sell for $10M. Too much work unless the payment is guaranteed.
I also agree that it would be nice to get more information and would like to know exactly why "things changed" and now we're not getting as thorough a vetting of STEP ... but I certainly don't think that I want to pay extra to get a STEP estimate.
I also agree that there are some who wouldn't want to go with STEP even if it was highly likely to save them lots of money.
(I actually rather doubt it would ... remember the Ripley report ... after looking those numbers over ... they were clearly stacked in favor of his proposed system and against TriW ... but even so, with inflation, his system wouldn't save us anything.)
When the "detailed" billings are "laid out" it will show there was no co-equal evaluation of alternative low pressure collection technologies.
Same goes for treatment technologies.
Blind mice are so easily misled.
"The community does not want step."
You're not the community, Lynette. I'm not the community. We still do not have an accurate form of measurement to determine what the community, as a whole, wants or doesn't want. 34% is a sampling of the community, not the community. As I mentioned earlier, the 218 is not a clear determinant of a majority vote nor does it mean that the "yes" votes were also votes favoring the handling of the County process.
Those who were rude and disrespectful at Bruce Gibson's office hours yesterday were a sampling of the people who you often label as "obstructionists" but that doesn't mean every "obstructionist," in your eyes, appeals to the same kind of decorum.
Also, you need to figure out why people are angry -- not that I'm excusing their anger. Homeowners are upset. They don't want a MWH-built, unaffordable, unsustainable gravity collection system that's going to boot them from their homes and their way of life. They have very, very legitimate concerns but you minimize their concerns as if listening to them is like pulling teeth.
That's why you'll never be a community leader. You have to find the truth in everyone's concern.
"Homeowners are upset. They don't want a MWH-built, unaffordable, unsustainable gravity collection system that's going to boot them from their homes and their way of life."
Aaron,
Aren't you generalizing? I know plenty of homeowners who want gravity and are upset only at the continued delays. Maybe SOME are upset and don't want gravity, but you state they all feel that way.
Come on, now. Practice what you preach.
I should have been a little clearer.
Homeowners, who have been protesting the County process, are upset. They don't want a MWH-built, unaffordable, unsustainable gravity collection system that's going to boot them from their homes and their way of life.
Forgot to add that clause in bold.
Yes, I make mistakes.
Aaron, I guess I am not making myself clear. Short of hiring a crew to go door to door, traveling to get non-resident homeowner opinions -- and metaphorically holding a gun to people's heads to compel them to answer, we never will have any more accurate measurement from the community than what we have right now. Unless you have some different plan to get those answers, and find the money to pay for it, please accept that we are going to move forward with the information that we have.If the "community" that chose not to speak says nothing, the rest of us who understand that we need to move ahead as best we can and stated our preference, will by default represent the community. That is reality in the real world. In an IDEAL world, of course this all would be different. How about we stop splitting hairs to argue about this? Without solutions to the "perceived" problem we are wheel spinning at best and simply wasting time.
Aaron, some people are just angry because they have unresolved problems in life. For them It isn't about the sewer, that is merely an event to to use to vent their anger. Others don't want a sewer and will be angry at having one, period. The rest simply need to learn some manners. People can be angry WITH MANNERS.
I also think a lot of people are overreacting. MWH is one of three. Who says that they are going to win? Many just assume that they will! That isn't rational. Anger is often fueled by irrationality. Understanding needs to come from within the angry ones about themselves and resolving their wishes to reality. We can be understanding, but that won't necessarily help.
Gravity has been chosen and the sooner people accept that, the better in terms of their own health. People think that step would be affordable, but many discount the costs spent for obtaining easements, or assume their own out-of-pocket lot costs will be taken care of by the project. Maybe you haven't paid the cost for electrical work on a house, I have. It is expensive. Replacing a driveway isn't cheap either. Having your yard torn up of plants and trees that you have nurtured is traumatic. There are many illegal units - with electricity - in this town. There was one in this house when we moved in. Do you think people want those things discovered? Do you think there is no chance they won't be with step re-wiring? Some people think it best to just not go there. So you see, there are varying reasons to the support of gravity, too.
I have heard the affordability concerns over and over and over. No sewer is the only "affordable" answer but that is not at all a realistic or healthy option. There are some real answers to cost but they have not yet sunk in. Many people cannot accept these answers yet because they are too upset to think. I hope eventually they can hear. I am most troubled by those who provoke and promote this upset to further their own political desires. The words, "They don't want a MWH-built, unaffordable, unsustainable gravity collection system that's going to boot them from their homes and their way of life" fall right into the rhetoric I speak of that encourages people to panic. The best way to control people's thinking is to keep people scared and off-balance. That is NOT what we need here to solve the problems. Calm thinking solves problems.
Thank you for your assessment of my community leadership potential. If I ever decide to run again, I will remember what you have said.
Lynette wrote, "Short of hiring a crew to go door to door, traveling to get non-resident homeowner opinions -- and metaphorically holding a gun to people's heads to compel them to answer, we never will have any more accurate measurement from the community than what we have right now."
Then why are you debating this with me? That's what I've been saying for a couple of months now. Then you write, "The community does not want STEP. The community wants Gravity. The community supported the County process via the 218 vote." You're sending mixed messages and it is aggravating. If you can't be clear, you can never be a community leader.
You wrote, "Aaron, some people are just angry because they have unresolved problems in life."
You can't dismiss people's concerns because -- you believe that -- homeowners who are venting about the sewer are covering for "unresolved problems." If they have an issue, address the issue. Don't speculate what their underlying intentions are as a basis for undermining their credibility. If you can't resist that sort of practice, you can never be a community leader.
You wrote, "I also think a lot of people are overreacting. MWH is one of three. Who says that they are going to win? Many just assume that they will! That isn't rational."
From what I've gathered, several people are concerned that MWH made it on the design-build RFQ shortlist for both collection and treatment given their past history with the district and given the fact that Ogren, now Public Works director overseeing this project, authorized the contracts involving MWH when he was interim GM in 1999. This concern isn't simply about MWH winning over the other bidders, but if that were to be the case, many more questions would arise regarding the fairness of the design-build process and you'll never hear the end of it.
I could address everything else you said, but I've already discussed it at length.
After reading your comments, I've determined that you're incapable of understanding others. That seems to be a given.
Nice knowing you.
Sewertoons, lets make a deal. You stop your eternal vigilance of this sewer, let the process just play out and let whatever happens happen. In return, i'll stop posting on this blog.
Sincerely, M
M, I do not want you to stop posting. Sorry if you are sick of what I write. I (and other bloggers, I'm sure) are interested in what you write. Why not just skip by my remarks the way I do blog postings that are irrelevant to me? I wish we had the tools like we did on the old Trib blog to just "not see" postings from bloggers whose postings we didn't want to read.
If Ann posts on sewer items, I am interested in responding. Sorry, I can't make that deal!
If you don't want me to respond to anything YOU write, if asked, I would respect your wishes.
Actually Sewertoons, I was talking about your involvement with the sewer. If you didn't care what system, or where it was put, there would be nothing to blog about. Unless you have a bias or agenda to fulfill. You see what I mean?
Sincerely, M
Lynette,
What about "sorry, I forgot his last name"???
Lynette,
Would you stop with this 218 stuff?
You say, "..The 218 DID pass, those people supported the County process..."
Lynette, you know darn well it was a "blackmail" vote and possibly illegal #1
and #2 You know that many who did vote yes had been promised that alternatives would actually be considered -- THEY WERE NOT! Many thought the County would select a cost effective project (that's the law too Lynette) -- BUT THEY DIDN'T!
and #3 People didn't realize what a blank check it would really be. We all can see that now...
and #4 We're in a deep recession, and were not when the 218 vote was held. Many have lost their jobs since then (even County employees).
Fiber Optics In Our Sewer Lines
Can LOCSD offset some of our upcoming sewer bill by leasing out part of the sewer pipes?
Fiber optict installations in sewer pipes all around the world have provided proof that this concept works.
In the USA City Net Telecommunications Inc. installs fiber optic cable in sewer lines. They do not affect the integrity of sewer pipe systems because they are attached to the crown of the pipe.
The fiber optic line is in stainless steel conduit which protects it from debri, rodents and high pressure washing.
Canada,Scotland,England,France and numerous other countries have adopted the concept.
Albuquerque entered into a 24 year long franchise contract with a telecommunication company for a2.5% fee.
We are probably too small a community for such a concept.
M, I don't blog to offend you. I'm sorry that you dislike it - but I do blog with an agenda. I want to get a sewer into Los Osos. I support the County process. I'm glad we got gravity, but the location isn't finalized yet. Of course I prefer Tri-W, as I am paying for that design on my taxes and the CSD owns the land. Otherwise I prefer Tonini, which we will need anyway for sprayfields until the purveyors can figure out what to do with the water. I support bringing the water back into the basin as quickly as possible. I hope the purveyors are working hard on a solution. I am frustrated by the information limitations imposed by the ISJ.
So, I am a believer in freedom of speech and I hope my agenda is crystal clear, but before I leave for the night I'd like to recommend a very interesting book, Freedom For The Thought That We Hate by Anthony Lewis. I believe I got it at Volumes of Pleasure - can't recall if it was on the shelf or I special ordered it. Great book.
FOGSWAMP, I am very interested in your info on fiber optics in sewer lines. If you pursue reading about it, please pass on some info. if it suits you. I like that you are thinking of ways to help lower the cost. That would be a good occupation for all of us (Ann did her part with the great report on RM's).
Lynette,
If "sorry, I forgot his last name" told you about ECOfluid he was providing you "affordability" which is anotherreason for you to continue your effort to get in touch with him.
If you 'made up' "sorry, I forgot his last name", why?
--“The AES DES PPP LOCSD BK Re-org plan due out shortly, will be a once in a lifetime story Sona. It is going to make HISTORY whether the Tribune covers it or not. Let's stay in touch.”
-- Markus Low
"Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness...Low says the system has not been adequately tested, with only a handful of controlled samples used as evidence that it works.”
Still haven't answered Shark's question, have you Low? If you purposely misled Los Osos about the Reclamator after admitting it was inadequately tested, why?
Willy,
Like Steve, you do not understand wastewater treatment "process", so you shall continue to be in the dark.
Have you heard anything about "sorry, I forgot his last name"?
Mark,
Even if I know nothing about wastewater treatment and you know everything about it ... you should not have said that the Reclamator was a "solution" if it wasn't adequately tested ... but if it was adequately tested, you shouldn't have said that it wasn't.
That being said, I would suggest that it would be wiser to avoid teh subject entirely than to try to deflect the issue because each time you try it makes you look more ... um ... like a salesman or politician ... and I don't mean that in the good way.
So then ... was the system adequately tested and thus you lied to us about it not being so or was the system not adequately tested and thus you lied about it being a solution? You are a liar and we know it .... we just want to know what sort of liar you are, the one who would lie to sell a product or the sort who would lie to screw an ex-business partner.
Right you are Markus. I'm dumb as a post. So help me out my friend.
In December, 2007 for example, you said:
"The RECLAMATOR is a device used by AES to provide a service to eliminate the discharge of pollutants of its customers. The data which confirms its performance has already been submitted to the RWQCB starting back in 1993 and further verified by the RWQCB in 1995 when the RWQCB conducted their own testing on the systems biological process which removes the nitrates. Furhter data was provided as the result of a Technology Verification which was done at the National Sanitation Foundation in Michigan (NSF/ANSI or NSF International) in 1994 which demonstrated the average nitrates to be only 1.6 mg/l and the highest through out the entire 6 month test program was only 4 mg/l.
Then in May, 2008, according to New Times:
"Low started sending a string of e-mails to environmental bureaucrats, politicians, and reporters that poke holes in the Reclamator’s effectiveness...Low says the system has not been adequately tested, with only a handful of controlled samples used as evidence that it works.”
Shark asks:
"Would you tell us now whether you believe the Reclamator to have been adequately tested?"
You answer with some typical bullshit but I, being dumb as a post, still don't undertand if you said yes or no. It's a simple yes or no question.
And no, I haven't seen or heard anything about a "sorry, I forget his last name." But as long as you keep asking, I'll keep asking you about your, er, little lapse in honesty/credibility.
Sewertoons
Sounds like a good read, I'll have to pick it up.
I just gave the fiber optic in the sewer line a cursory glance after some Canadian relatives were raving about it and indicated that a new developing community may be ripe for the idea.
It's called FTTH "Fiber To The Home" technology". Allows up to 1000Mb/sec upward and downward. Some say 90% faster to run than present day copper methods for TV/Internet/Phone sevices.
Seemingly, the big debate is that Verizon dumped $18 billion dollars to replace present day copper twisted cable with fiber. Then they "allegedly" cut the copper feeder lines to cut out the competition. Some government maneuvering with copper plants going on. Would make a good read for a journalist to write.
Corning's breakthrough in developing bendable fiber cable that can be twisted into a knot (never before attainable) with virtually no signal loss made fiber optic truly marketable.
Some other terms used are; FTTC "Fiber To The Curb"
FTTD "Fiber To the Desk"
DSM "Dynamic Spectrum Management" (used to bring copper up to speed)
As communication networks advance we can access information at speeds that were unimaginable just a few years ago.
The sewer lines underground are a perfect conduit that allows economical access to homes and businesses without distrupting commerce by digging. A bit more enviromentally friendly.
It's unfortunate to say that America (as of 2005) is number 16 (lower end)out of 20 countries in the world in "FTTH" technology penetration. (source International Telecomnication Union). Excludes mobile cullular broadband)
Broadband subscribers per 100 inhabitants January 2005 are;
Korea 24.9 - China 20.9 -Nethelands 19.4 - Denmark 19.5 - Canada 17.5 - Switzerland 17 - Taiwan 16.3 - Belguim 16 - Ireland 15.5 - Swedan 15.1 - Norway 15 - Isreal 14.3 - Japan 14.1 - Finland 12.5 - Singapore 11.5 - USA - 11.4 - France 11.2 - UK 10.5 - Austria 10.1 Portugal 8.5 .
Food for thought.
WOW! Thanks FOGSWAMP - this is really, really interesting! I'm going to cut 'n paste this to save, then google the terminology and read some more stuff.
Slightly off topic but somewhat relevant - Sadly America lags behind many other countries in science. Our schools have gone downhill and we are not competing as we once did.
A friend was here from Turkey a few years back and had a cell phone with services and do-dads way above what we were able to get here. Turkey! Maybe iPhones have caught up to that now - but where is Turkey - and other countries - where are they now? It's as if the mentality that ruined Detroit is more pervasive than we think?
Hah! Maybe gravity pipes can help us out in the future with an unintended consequence to the good!
Lynette wrote: Hah! Maybe gravity pipes can help us out in the future with an unintended consequence to the good!
Maybe this new technology can mitigte the leakage fines, repairs and cleaning???
How would cleaning impact on the fiber network?
The law of unintended consequences Lynette, like "sorry, I forgot his last name"...like for "real".
Sorry Willy, you are on your own buddy.
Thank you for answering about "sorry, I forgot his last name".
Stay tuned for the in depth interview, it will answer more questions han you can think of.
Be patient or not, I really not care.
Watershed Mark
"How would cleaning impact on the fiber network"?
Good question.
Google "The Feasibility of Using Sewer Lines for Fiber-Optic Conduits" prepared by the City of Portland. An excellent draft on the subject matter. I'm computer illiterate and don't know how to make the link live like you do Mark.
The stainless steel clamps holding the cable to the top of the pipe are thin like hose clamps, installed by robots using 5 cameras. Clamps are designed not to interfere with the integrity of the pipe.
High pressure washing and vacuum cleaning using what is called Vactor Truck has a high-pressure 360-deg arc is used (8" to 48"). The cleaning robot is pulled downstream forcing the debris from the walls to the vacuum.
In general, sewer lines are cleaned every couple of years, however downstream of restraunts
may require it more often because of the grease. (should be illegal, maybe it is)
In root prone areas they use a specially designed root saw that cuts within an inch of the cables at the top of the pipe. In the pipe cable area they use a chemical foaming agent to control root infiltration. If welded pipe is used this problem could be avoided.
In Albuqerque (I think I read somewhere) that the vendor maps, cleans and videos the pipes, reporting on a regular basis as a part of the contract.
Seemingly, this would be a win-win process to avoid backups and costly spills.
FOGSWAMP,
The Feasibility of Using Sewer Lines for Fiber-Optic ConduitsThere doesn't seem to be any lines actually installed in sewers. Probably too good an idea and disrupts an established
I too was instructed once or twice about "hot links" here on Ann's Land and elsewhere.
It wasn't until I happened across this website that I understood how writing the code worked.
This is the code: Gold PriceAll one must do is insert the website address "http:etcetera" and then insert/write anything you want between the "greater than and less than" symbols taking care not to leave any space between the first and last characters and these symbols > <
Please let me know if I didn’t make this clear enough and I will try again.
Sincerely yours,
Mark
The code is located here at towards the bottom of this website.
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