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Friday, November 21, 2008

Calhoun’s Cannons, The Bay News, Tolusa Press, SLO, CA for Nov 21, 08


I Do! I Do! Not You! Part 8

On November 4th, California voters helped put a black man into the White House then voted to remove equal civil rights from gay citizens, thereby returning them to a second class closet.

The State Supreme Court had previously ruled that to deny gay citizens the fundamental right to marry, just like their straight fellow citizens, was unconstitutional. After the ruling, thousands of gay people happily got married.

Apparently those weddings so threatened the republic that several religious groups funded a huge war chest and ran a constitutional amendment campaign full of the usual “Save the Children” fear and smear tactics, always a sure sign that everyone had better hide the silverware. It didn’t matter that the media debunked these lies. Such fear-based campaigns appeal to already existing prejudices and cannot be countered by mere facts.

While California took a step backward in this country’s difficult struggle to live up to its stated ideals, this campaign was not without some astonishing ironies and a touch of absurdity.

First, the absurdity. Many supporters of Yes on 8 claimed that if this initiative failed, they’d start teaching gay marriage in school. How to you “teach gay marriage?” Marriage is marriage, unless you plan to set up lessons in Stereotype 101. “Now class, ‘Gay Marriage’ is when gay people get married they register at Macys and ask for Broadway Show Tune CDs.” Oh, pluueeeze.

And then there were the ironies. The media reported that “Blacks strongly voted for the ban while whites leaned slightly toward opposing it. Latinos and Asians were split.” My guess is that bias was based on the traditional Christian church teachings in the black community, but how ironic that the one people who know first hand the worst ugliness of being denied full civil rights would vote to impose the same fate on a group of their fellow citizens. And irony of ironies: Traditional Christian church scripture had once been used to justify slavery and uphold anti-miscegenation laws, among other past atrocities.

As for pots and kettles, the campaign was heavily funded by the Mormon Church. Mormons are another minority who have felt the lethal consequences of being denied their civil rights. They were driven out of their homes by howling, bigoted mobs. If ever there were a minority who understood what being denied full civil rights meant, and how fearsome bigotry can be, it should have been them. Not to mention that, given their own historical “peculiar” marriage traditions, they above all others should have been the last people on earth who would lead the charge to define “marriage” for others.

It’s not known just where this will go at this point. Lawyers have been called. At issue, however, is a critical overriding principle: Can a majority of the electorate vote to remove or deny equal civil rights and protections for any disfavored minority du jour?

Frankly, I think the state should simply put an end to this attempt to impose certain religious beliefs on secular/civil issues and short circuit the latest run-of-the-mill, anti-gay bigotry by getting out of the “holy matrimony” business altogether. Instead of issuing “Marriage Licenses,” the state should rename them, “Civil Domestic Partnership Licenses,” and issue them to all people who qualify. The CDPL’s could be signed and the deal sealed at the (civil) County Clerk’s office, just like many “marriages” are today. Or couples taking out CDPL’s could take them to a church or synagogue of their choice and engage in whatever religious ceremony is offered or wanted, after which they would have the documents witnessed and signed, just like they now do with their civil “marriage licenses.”

Then they can call themselves anything they want. It will make no difference. But what will make a huge difference is that all citizens will be treated equally, under civil law. In a secular, multi-cultural, multi-religious civil society, removing rights from citizens based on the beliefs of certain religious groups is never a sound policy. The founders of this country understood that far better than the voters do today. They knew first hand how critical it is to keep the line that separates church and state bright and shining. That line protects each from each, and ultimately protects the citizens from the excesses of both. It’s a civics lesson we forget at our own peril.

46 comments:

Watershed Mark said...

Isn't President Elect Obama African/Caucasian?

TCG said...

I watched this election closer than any other in my life, and I read several books in relation to the issues and people at hand. I learned many things but, by far, the most important thing that I learned is that MONEY dictates the outcome in almost all cases.

MONEY is responsible for every unbelieveable issue that I came acress in the campaigns. Money was responsible for the half white Barack Obama, raised by first his white mother then his white grandparents, getting elected as the first "black" President. MONEY was responsible for Proposition 8 passing.

MONEY is not liberal or conservative, and unless change really does occur in our politics, we will never be able to make sense of decisions made in elections such as the approval of Proposition 8.

Watershed Mark said...

When following the "MONEY":

Why would the SLCO BOS choose a lower quality technology that costs more when better technology which costs less is available?

This question cuts to “the heart of the matter”. That is why it is so very difficult to answer rationally and on the record.

“Instructive for all”, isn’t it.(?)

Billy Dunne said...

When following the "MONEY":

Why would a slippery, slick out-of-towner with no communal stake whatsoever in Los Osos hijack a blog and write volumes and volumes of technical babble in support of a company owned by a seemingly, um, "eccentric" person who attempts to extort the less informed and less fortunate in Los Osos by sending bogus threatening letters from the Water Board and characterizing all those who do not purchase his technology as "child molestors," only to suddenly and quite stealthily leave the company (or get fired for stealing said technology depending on who you believe), only to show up again, without a hint of embarrassment, writing volumes and volumes of technical babble in support of yet ANOTHER company?
This question cuts to the "heart of the matter" and my goodness, Is "Instructive for all, " isn't it(!)

Great piece Ann. I still think the courts, maybe the highest of all, will have the final say in this once again tragic display of bigotry.

Watershed Mark said...

Billy,

You are way behind the curve.
If one doesn't understand something, one usually ridicules it.

You are entitled to your criticism, however unfounded it may be.
Please get some more knowledge before you comment.

Your “feelings” are always correct as they belong to you.
However, emotional arguments are not reasonable or logical so they are not effective here, dealing with wastewater technology.

Realistic1 said...

And what, prey tell, do Ann's comments on Prop 8 have to do with wastewater technology?

You just can't help yourself, can you?

Watershed Mark said...

RI,
When the people speak, government (courts) listen(s).
In the case of Prop 8 the people had to speak a second time to "overturn" the court who overturned the will of the people the first time around.

In Arizona we changed our State Constitution to insure there won't be any court challenges to the definition of marriages.
The commercials from the “the law is ok as written” “don’t change the Constitution were hysterical.

The nexus (I am stretching it here) is when the people speak government listens…

How about that African/Caucasian question?

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark, are you against gay marriage?

Watershed Mark said...

I voted to change the Constitutionin Arizona.
I am in favor of contractual relationships that protect rights.
How about that African/Caucasian question?

Watershed Mark said...

Lee Iacocca:


Name me a government leader who can articulate a plan for paying down the debt, or solving the energy crisis, or managing the health care problem. The silence is deafening. But these are the crises that are eating away at our country and milking the middle class dry.

Watershed Mark said...

2 out of 3 isn't bad Lee.
Debt and Energy are National Security Issues. Health Care is not.

Eat less excercise more.
If you drink and smoke you may pay the price.

I'm always amazed by those who think government can solve problems it creates.

TCG said...

Seven of the above eleven posts by Watershed Mark, and not really related to the interesting topic that Ann introduced.

Watershed Mark said...

Is President Elect Obama Black and White?

Shark Inlet said...

Ann,

Full support on the whole CDPL idea. It brilliantly avoids the whole war over the meaning of the word "marriage". If CDPLs have all the legal rights associated with the word "marriage", everyone wins.

The problem really is that the state hijacked a religious word. "Marriage" predates even the Magna Carta and the Roman empire.

There are other words which serve dual secular and sacred role, but few which have caused such problem as this one.

I can understand both folks who opposed Prop 8 (because discrimination is wrong) and folks who supported Prop 8 (because they viewed their view of marriage as being under attack).

Presumably other words which have definite religious meaning shouldn't be co-opted by the state. Can you imagine the uproar if the state defined the word "sacrament" to mean "a legally required lunch break"?



To answer Mark ... Obama has a white mom and a black dad and a black wife and black kids. Most folks call him black ... certainly people in Kenya view him as kin. Why is it important to answer this question?


Lastly, the key relevant question now seems to be whether the CA Supreme Court views this change to the CA constitution as a revision or something more serious which would need more than a simple majority. I can imagine the decision going either way because the vote could be viewed as a clarification of the people's will on the definition of the term Marriage or it could be viewed as an attempt to change the definition itself from what it had meant (for at least a few months).

Churadogs said...

Mark sez:"In the case of Prop 8 the people had to speak a second time to "overturn" the court who overturned the will of the people the first time around."

The key issue (which I noted as key in my column) is this: Does "the will of the people" trump Constitution protections of equal justice for all citizens? Does "the will of the people" trump "separate but equal?" and so forth. Can the "The people" via state laws or state constitutions institute second class citizenship for some citizens without causing a federal challenge? The point of our federal constitituion was to prevent the tyranny of the majority over whatever minority was in the dog house at any given time. That's the huge issue at stake here. Also, a whole lot of people forget that "marriage" is a CIVIL proceeding. You can't get legally "married" in a church UNLESS you have that CIVIL piece of paper, issued by CIVIL authorities. So we're back to the question: Does equal protection under civil, secular law trump certain religious beliefs or "the will of the people" and etc?

Inlet sez:"Can you imagine the uproar if the state defined the word "sacrament" to mean "a legally required lunch break"?"

That's the other problem here. Semantics and the confusion over meanings. "Holy Matrimony." In a theocracy marriage is religious. Be we don't live in a theocracy. In the U.S. "marriage" is a CIVIL contract tht concerns itself in matters of real property, inheritance, etc. Nothing "holy" about it. (Try going to a church to get a divorce that has any legal meaning in the state. Can't be done. Divorce is also a civil matter.) Because we have a tradition of linking "holy" and "matrimony" we assume they are one and the same. They're not. That's why people are having trouble with "that word." The Shredder certainly had the right idea. Change the constittiuon to read "Merry." And be done with it. I'm merried. He's merried, they're merried. Then we can get on with really serious stuff like health care and energy and environment and global warming, all of which will come kill us off whether we're married or merried.

Watershed Mark said...

Ann,

Marriage is Licensed, as is Driving.
It isn't a religious matter, it is legal.

Any amount of ceremony will not result in matrimony.

Steve,

The problem with the logic behind your statement:

“Obama has a white mom and a black dad and a black wife and black kids. Most folks call him black ... certainly people in Kenya view him as kin. Why is it important to answer this question?”

…is that it lacks clarity which is central to reach any conclusion.

The opinions of “Most folks” and especially “people in Kenya” do not make it a fact that President Elect Obama is Black.
By your own statement you have conceded “he” President Elect Obama is half black and half (to use your word) white.

He is neither Black or White, no matter who he married or how many children he has.

Watershed Mark said...

mat·ri·mo·ny (mtr-mn)
n. pl. mat·ri·mo·nies
The act or state of being married; marriage.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

What are any of us but a mix of a bunch of stuff? You might have an argument in some areas of the world, but go back 2,000 or 4,000 years - and --then?

People are always going to claim kinship no matter how thin the thread.

Legally I think you can be given Native American status by some tribal council if you can prove 1/8 Native American blood.

alabamasue said...

Mark,
Why are you so hung up on Obama's race? Those of us with functioning brains stopped caring about that issue long ago.

Billy Dunne,
Hilarious, and accurate.

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

I notice that you ask a question about the race of Obama and you seem to go off at my answer. You also seem to have neglected to address the question of why this matters one whit.

Watershed Mark said...

ABS,

I'm not. Ann on others refer to him as black. My pioint bis he is just as white as he is black.The reason I asked the question in the first place was to demonstrate the "bias" of those who claim him to be black.

Those who choose to think that PE Obama is black demonstrate they do not deal in facts but rather deal in feelings.

I'll bet PE Obama will use his white heritage to demonstrate how we are all one at some point during his tenure.

I have at least four years to go until I will be proven wrong.

Now if he gets divorced and marries Rom Emanuel we will have somthing to talk about, won't we?

alabamasue said...

Mark-
Why would you care if Obama got divorced and married Rahm (not Rom) Emanuel? I realize that AZ is a heavily mormon state, but could you people just get over it and realize that we're in the 21st century now? Whether you like it or not, blacks and gays have a place in our society- as equals.

Watershed Mark said...

ABS,
I don't. It would give us something to talk about.

There are more Catholics than Mormons in Arizona.

The "you people" thinking is stale. Time for a change, remember.

Of course all men are created equal.

How about using your real identity? If not, why not?

You know, so we can all know where you live. What are you afraid of?

Watershed Mark said...

Billy Dunne is out of touch.
That's funny and true.

Watershed Mark said...

A quick check of the record shows there is no "Billy, Willy or William Dunne", residing in SLO County.

Frank said...

a quick check of the record shows there is no "Annoying Salesman Mark", "Watershed Mark", "Send me your DeutschMark Sucker Mark", "Mark your Check over to Mark", or "QuoteAHolic Mark", "Give me EcoFluids or Give Me Death Mark", or "Mark the Shark" residing in SLO County

Shark Inlet said...

Mark,

What about this? What about letting people define their own race? If Obama views himself as African American, why not? Why insist that he is half this and half that?

And ... even if he were half black and half white, how is that ... in any way ... relevant to this discussion topic here?

Unless you can explain the relevance, you're gonna look really silly for the amount of time you've wasted on this question.

Churadogs said...

Mark sez:"I'm not. Ann on others refer to him as black. My pioint bis he is just as white as he is black.The reason I asked the question in the first place was to demonstrate the "bias" of those who claim him to be black."

In the not so recent past, race -- in the case of Negroes, was determined by the drop of blood means -- one drop of Negro blood meant you were Negro. One drop. Absurd, but there, historically, we STILL are. Anyone with any amount of Negro blood is considered African American. (See Tiger Woods, who tried to counter this by calling himself some portmanteau word jam of all the races he includes.) If the amount is small enough to result in no "negro" visual clues and cues, the person could "pass." and enter white society. Indeed, the whole One Drop rule is hilariously absurd since DNA testing can now uncover the hilarious fact that there's likely some KKK members who are "negro." hahahah it's entirely possible that there's some good Mormons who are "negro" as well, which means they were "negro" long before the churck leader and another "revelation" and changed that long held belief that cast "negros" out of the fold. hahahahah, some more.

Also, since Kenya was loaded down with Arab traders and slavers, it's entirely possible that Obama's family might have some Arab blood mixed in. Not to mention there's a group of Africans living in South Africa, I believe, who carry the mitocrondial DNA for the ancient Hebrew "Cohen," I think, family. So it's possible Obama's family might also have Jewish DNA? Who knows?

So, phenotype doesn't necessarily mean genotype. We're all mutts and the better for it, I say.But in this country, the one drop rule still rules, because we still haven't gotten past our past.

Watershed Mark said...

Spero Meliora:

Black or White Lyrics
Artist(Band):Michael Jackson
Written and Composed by Michael Jackson.
Rap Lyrics by Bill Bottrell.
Produced by Michael Jackson and Bill Bottrell.


Aaow

Aaow

I Took My Baby
On A Saturday Bang
Boy Is That Girl With You
Yes We're One And The Same

Now I Believe In Miracles
And A Miracle
Has Happened Tonight

Hee

But, If
You're Thinkin'
About My Baby
It Don't Matter If You're
Black Or White

Ooo...

They Print My Message
In The Saturday Sun
I Had To Tell Them
I Ain't Second To None

And I Told About Equality
An It's True
Either You're Wrong
Or You're Right

Aooo

But, If
You're Thinkin'
About My Baby
It Don't Matter If You're
Black Or White

Hee
Go, yeah
Hee, hee

I Am Tired Of This Devil
I Am Tired Of This Stuff
I Am Tired Of This Business
Sew When The
Going Gets Rough
I Ain't Scared Of
Your Brother
I Ain't Scared Of No Sheets
I Ain't Scare Of Nobody
Girl When The
Goin' Gets Mean

(L. T. B. Rap Performance)
Protection
For Gangs, Clubs
And Nations
Causing Grief In
Human Relations
It's A Turf War
On A Global Scale
I'd Rather Hear Both Sides
Of The Tale
See, It's Not About Races
Just Places
Faces
Where Your Blood
Comes From
Is Where Your Space Is
I've Seen The LIGHT
Get Duller
I'm Not Going To Spend
My Life Being A Color

(Michael)
Don't Tell Me You Agree With Me
When I Saw You Kicking Dirt In My Eye

Hee, hee

But, If
You're Thinkin' About My Baby
It Don't Matter If You're Black Or White

I Said If
You're Thinkin' Of
Being My Baby
It Don't Matter If You're Black Or White

I Said If
You're Thinkin' Of
Being My Brother
It Don't Matter If You're
Black Or White

No, no , alright

Ooh, Ooh
Alright
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah Now
Alright , alright
Ooh, Ooh
Shomon
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah Now
Alright
Ooh, Ooh

It's Black, It's White
It's Tough For You
To Get By
It's Black , It's White, Whoo

Ooh, Ooh

It's Black, It's White
It's Tough For You
To Get By
It's Black , It's White, Whoo

Watershed Mark said...

Man In The Mirror Lyrics
Artist(Band):Michael Jackson

Written and Composed by Siedah Garrett and Glen Ballard.



I'm Gonna Make A Change,
For Once In My Life
It's Gonna Feel Real Good,
Gonna Make A Difference
Gonna Make It Right . . .

As I, Turn Up The Collar On My
Favourite Winter Coat
This Wind Is Blowin' My Mind
I See The Kids In The Street,
Without Enough To Eat
Who Am I, To Be Blind?
Pretending Not To See
Their Needs
A Summer's Disregard,
A Broken Bottle Top
And A One Man's Soul
They Follow Each Other On
The Wind Ya' Know
'Cause They Got Nowhere To Go
That's Why Now I Want You To Know

I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself, And
Then Make A Change)
(Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na, Na Nah)

I've Been A Victim Of A Selfish
Kind Of Love
It's Time That I Realize
That There Are Some With No
Home, Not A Nickel To Loan
Could It Be Really Me,
Pretending That They're Not Alone?

A Willow Deeply Scarred,
Somebody's Broken Heart
And A Washed-Out Dream
(Washed-Out Dream)
They Follow The Pattern Of
The Wind, Ya' See
Cause They Got No Place To Be
That's Why I'm Starting With Me
(Starting With Me!)

I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
(Ooh!)
And No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)

I'm Starting With The Man In
The Mirror
(Ooh!)
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
(Change His Ways-Ooh!)
And No Message Could've
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make That . . .
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make That . . .)
Change!

I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror,
(Man In The Mirror-Oh Yeah!)
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
(Better Change!)
No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make The Change)
(You Gotta Get It Right, While
You Got The Time)
('Cause When You Close Your Heart)
You Can't Close Your . . .Your Mind!
(Then You Close Your . . . Mind!)
That Man, That Man, That
Man, That Man
With That Man In The Mirror
(Man In The Mirror, Oh Yeah!)
That Man, That Man, That Man
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
(Better Change!)
You Know . . .That Man
No Message Could Have
Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World
A Better Place
(If You Wanna Make The
World A Better Place)
Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change
(Take A Look At Yourself And
Then Make A Change)
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah
(Oh Yeah!)
Gonna Feel Real Good Now!
Yeah Yeah! Yeah Yeah!
Yeah Yeah!
Na Na Na, Na Na Na, Na Na,
Na Nah
(Ooooh . . .)
Oh No, No No . . .
I'm Gonna Make A Change
It's Gonna Feel Real Good!
Come On!
(Change . . .)
Just Lift Yourself
You Know
You've Got To Stop It.
Yourself!
(Yeah!-Make That Change!)
I've Got To Make That Change,
Today!
Hoo!
(Man In The Mirror)
You Got To
You Got To Not Let Yourself . . .
Brother . . .
Hoo!
(Yeah!-Make That Change!)
You Know-I've Got To Get
That Man, That Man . . .
(Man In The Mirror)
You've Got To
You've Got To Move! Come
On! Come On!
You Got To . . .
Stand Up! Stand Up!
Stand Up!
(Yeah-Make That Change)
Stand Up And Lift
Yourself, Now!
(Man In The Mirror)
Hoo! Hoo! Hoo!
Aaow!
(Yeah-Make That Change)
Gonna Make That Change . . .
Come On!
(Man In The Mirror)
You Know It!
You Know It!
You Know It!
You Know . . .
(Change . . .)
Make That Change.

alabamasue said...

Homophobe Mark-
Is there a point to cutting and pasting Michael Jackson song lyrics? How about multiple postings of "As Paavo Ogren said ..blah, blah, blah?" If you can't find something original or useful to say, maybe you could just be silent. You make yourself appear foolish.

Watershed Mark said...

Careful ABS, your bias is showing.

I don't agree with you or any "label maker", that because I voted in favor of heterosexual marriage that I am a homophobe.

What's with all the name calling? Is it suddenly a problem to be heterosexual?

What are you an "elitist"? See what I mean. I don’t believe you to be an elitist, I have never met you and by your writing I certainly wouldn’t begin to classify you as anything other than “confused” about sewerage and treatment technologies.

/////////////////////////////////
Once more because you brought it up:

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

Fact is, I will never tire of repeating Paavo’s words, even if he doesn’t end up living up to them for LO/BP, the very project that “prompted” him to say them.
Think of the example these words provide now and in the future.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

ws mark, how about you just don't believe in equality for all, no "lable?"

Watershed Mark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Watershed Mark said...

You don't know what I believe because you are a negative individual who reads and sees what you want to see and believe.

I think nature will take its course.

For instance those who believe and use abortion will reduce the number of their descendants thus hopefully resulting in a reduction of those who believe and use abortion.

I believe in justice and liberty for all, born and unborn.

Realistic1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Realistic1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Realistic1 said...

"Liberty & justice for all...born and unborn"?

Sounds like you want to mess with many people's liberty to me.

Don't believe in the right to choose? Counsel your daughter to consider adoption. Better still, teach her how NOT to get pregnant before she planned.

Don't believe in gay marriage? Don't fall in love with someone of the same sex.

See something objectionable on TV? Change the channel.

This is America, Mark. Our Constitution says we can believe whatever we want and that this country will be free of religious regulation from the government.

Believe what you want - and live your life accordingly - because that's your right, but stop trying to impose your religious/moral values on everyone else.

Watershed Mark said...

Imposing a death sentence under the banner of "right to choose" is very tragic indeed.

Realistically, the ultimate "imposition" wouldn't you say?

Watershed Mark said...

BTW,
Would you please provide the language our Founding Fathers laid out which says: "Our Constitution says we can believe whatever we want"

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

"Death sentence" is how you chose to frame it mark, but not everyones.

Realistic1 said...

Let's see Mark - I think it's in the first paragraph:

"WE, the PEOPLE of the UNITED
STATES, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

It's that "blessings of liberty" part I'm referring to.

Then, for good measure, there is the Bill of Rights - that tricky First Amendment...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."

See Mark, you get to believe that life begins at conception, I get to believe that it doesn't. You get to believe the government should have control over a woman's body. I get to believe that it doesn't. You believe that the government should define what a family is... I get to believe a family comes in many forms.

Don't try and sell me on your moral agenda. Smarter men than you have tried and failed miserably.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette wrote:
"Death sentence" is how you chose to frame it mark, but not everyones.

A Dense/Dunce sentence...

Choose life Lynette, it's that simple.

Watershed Mark said...

What do you think will be the result after conception, a puppy perhaps?

That is an argument you will lose everytime, no matter how many men "tried it".

Watershed Mark said...

When I wrote: Would you please provide the language our Founding Fathers laid out which says: "Our Constitution says we can believe whatever we want"

I knew you could not provide those words and that FREEDOM would be your answer.

Your rights end where mine begin.
If you kill innocent unborn life, I pity those who kill more than those are killed.

Realistic1 said...

Mark,

I quoted the first paragraph of the Constitution directly.

Now, from the dictionary...

lib-er-ty

freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.

freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

Liberty is a synonym for freedom, jackass. Look it up.