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Monday, November 24, 2008

Prop 8 Supporters, We Gotta Talk

O.K., all you folks who voted for Proposition 8, to take the right to marry away from your fellow citizens here in Calif. We, gotta talk. Enough with the vague code words and undefined terms. Please, ya gotta answer – specifically – some of my questions.

1. In a Tribune letter, Neal O’Hagan of Arroyo Grande noted that Prop 8 didn’t remove any rights. He said, “Often the example is the right town property with a partner and visit in hospitals. Surely anyone with motivation can find a courthouse and the appropriate forms to address those issues without forcing the rest of us to redefine a word that the entire planet has agreed on for a thousand years.”

In civil law, the term and the legal document – a marriage license – creates a whole set of rights and responsibilities and benefits all under one roof, so to speak. One stop shopping and ka-boom, you get a whole list of things denied to single people (and now gay people since they are denied the right to EVER get them wherein singles can actually get “married.”) Now, Dear Neal, please explain to me why California citizen X can get a bundle of benefits in one fell swoop, while citizen Y has to chase all over town, from lawyer to bureaucrat to court to and county, state and federal departments, pay extra fees and be swamped by a raft of separate paperwork? What compelling state interest is promoted by Citizen Y having to doing that?

2. Back to Mr. O’Hagan again. Please tell me – exactly – why and how letting gay citizens “marry” will force you to redefine the word marry? When Citizen X is born a chromosome male and later in life decides he wants to undergo a gender reassignment process and become a “woman,” is that suppose to force me – a chromosome female – to “redefine” the word “woman?” Or get all huffy and say, “AW, GAWD, that Chromosome Citizen X over there is calling himself a “woman.” Eeeeuuuu, as a “real” woman, I’m outraged and so will start a constitutional amendment to forbid anyone but a “real” chromosome woman to call herself a “woman.” I don’t think so.

So, Mr. O’Hagan needs to ‘splain how having a gay couple say they’re “married” changes the meaning of the word “marriage.” In the state of California, marriage is marriage. Same for citizen X as for Y. The meaning of the word stays the same. No need to redefine anything, unless Mr. O’Hagan is afraid someone might think he’s gay? If so, he can always say, “I’m married, but I don’t have one of those “gay marriages,” MY marriage is the REAL marriage, see? I’m not gay. No, I’m not. Really, I’m not. Why are you looking at me funny?”

3. Once again, Prop 8 supporters, ya gotta ‘splain how letting Gay Citizen X’s marry will destroy marriage. I don’t get that part. If you’re a married straight couple and some gay folks across town get married, are you gonna have to go into marriage counseling? Do you think the state will suddenly come in and say, “Oh, you’re not gay? Sorry, you can’t remain married. Only gay citizens can get married, not YOU?” What?

4. Mr. O’Hagan again, “I applaud the Mormon church for taking on the issue. I encourage other people of faith to stop being afraid to defend traditional biblical values. There is room for more than one value set to coexist and overlap.”

Uh, Mr. O’Hagan, I hate to be the one to inform you, but you will need to define – exactly – just what “traditional biblical values” you’re talking about: polygamy? Stoning to death of adulterers? No divorce? Keeping slaves? Marrying your brother’s widow? What? Also, are you aware that there’s a whole lot of folks in this secular, multi- cultural, multi-religious, multi-racial country who don’t believe in “biblical values.” Your statement makes it appear that “biblical values” are a given? They’re not. Weirdly, you also add, “there is room for more than one value set to coexist and overlap.” Not for supporters of Prop. 8, clearly. Only ONE VALUE SET there.

5. And you have to get honest about bringing kids into the mix. Using the usual scare tactics about “teaching gay marriage in the schools,” is really dishonest – not a biblical value. First, if you so hate and fear gay folks that you don’t want’ your kids even knowing such people exist, you really will need to isolate your children from society in general – homeschool, no TV, no movies, no popular culture (and better check the classics since some of those books were written by EEEEUUUUU, gay people.) The state gives you, as parents, that right.

As for trying to foster the notion that marriage is about “family,” please be aware that gay couple have kids, many of them genetically their own, (i.e. “real” kids), adopted kids and/or blended kids from previous marriages, & etc, just like straight married couples do. So trying to make people think that anti-marriage initiatives are an effort to “protect the family,” just don’t fly in the real world. Even more troubling for the straight “values crowd,” the straight world has now got a huge variety of different ways to constitute “family,” that it’s hard to even define that word any more. Which means, the Prop 8 supporters need to be careful: the “family” sword they try to wield as a weapon against gay folks can turn and cut their own supporters to the bone as well. Two divorced straight people re-married and living in a blended family are NOT upholding “traditional biblical values.” We need to stone them.

One of the most interesting moments in this whole debate came on the Dr. Phil show. He had the usual high-profile pro/con spokespeople up on the stage, but the truly fascinating moment came when he did a video profile of two couples – one gay, one straight. Except for gender, they were identical and spoke of the same concerns and issues – raising their kids, living a good life in peace, committed to their partners & etc. When the film clips ended, the gay man turned to the straight woman and very movingly said how he totally respected her religious beliefs but pointed out that he and his partner were “married” in their synagogue by their rabbi, their union WAS holy and blessed, they, like the straight couple, were religious folks, good folks who loved their two daughters, had a regular family life, doing regular family things and simply wanted the same treatment as the straight couple.

Suddenly, a look crossed this woman’s face as she looked at the young man and you knew, suddenly, she “got it.” Their “marriage” was no different than her “marriage,” except for gender. Their life was no different from her life, except for gender. And at that moment, her poorly defined “values” arguments fell apart and you knew she’d be left to think about what her real objections were. Which gets to the heart of this whole matter.

Dear Prop 8 supporters, before this battle heats up again, you need to ‘splain -- exactly – what it is you really object to here. What’s really behind the fear? Once you can get honest about that, then it’s possible to have a discussion about “marriage” in general and “gay marriage” specifically. But until you can separate all of the buzz words and code words and hidden fears and muddled beliefs and clearly define each, what we’ll end up with is irrational action and a dangerous blending of church and state, separate but equal citizenship, and the tyranny of the majority over the minority, all things this country’s constitution was designed to protect against.

95 comments:

Watershed Mark said...

Marriage is not a Constitutionally guaranteed "Right".

Ron said...

Great piece, Ann.

Ann wrote:

"Uh, Mr. O’Hagan, I hate to be the one to inform you, but you will need to define – exactly – just what “traditional biblical values” you’re talking about: polygamy? Stoning to death of adulterers? No divorce? Keeping slaves? Marrying your brother’s widow? "

Eye for an eye?

Judging from the extreme intolerance harbored by a lot of the “traditional biblical values” types, I have to wonder: Do they read that book, or do they just wave it around?

My advice to Mr. O'Hagan: The next time he sees some canned news footage of a gay marriage, notice how completely overjoyed the participants are.

His “traditional biblical values” say, "No, they can't be that happy."

Would Jesus really say that? That doesn't sound accurate.

Mike Green said...

I think the whole prop 8 thing illustrates what I've told people all along.
Never vote for any voter initiative, they are all, in the long run, a very poor way to make law.
Since I no longer live in California I can only shake my head in wonderment at the results there.
Another way to look at it I suppose, is that there were a heck of a lot of no votes on 8, considering the historical anti-gay position of the established majority religions, that seems encouraging.
If the yes on 8 folks think this issue is decided forever, think again
If the courts don't strike it down, time will.
It's inevitable.
"To strive for a more perfect union" is an inclusive statement and that is the kind of lawmaking that stands the test of time
Laws which step away from that goal ultimately fail.

Mark, what about equal protection under the law and that little bit about "pursuit of happiness"?

alabamasue said...

A letter to the Tribune today confirmed my suspicion that some people didn't know what they were voting for. A woman from SLO was decrying discrimination, mentioning the "defeat of Prop 8" twice. Wonder how she voted. That said, I believe the law will be thrown out, as it should be.

Shark Inlet said...

AlabamaSue raises a really good point about this proposition.

Due to the nature of any proposition to change the constitution, a "yes" vote means that you approve the change. I am sure that many well meaning people actually cast ballots with their vote being the opposite of what they intended.

Should that cause the vote to be overturned? In this case, I really doubt it because the wording was vetted by folks up and down the foodchain and there is zero way of making this particular issue (changing the constitution to define marriage differently than it had been previously interpreted) idiot-proof on the ballot.

Perhaps overturned on other grounds, but not this one. I think that the best hope for the "no on 8" group would be in a lawsuit saying that this insertion of a particular definition of marriage is not a "revision" of the state constitution but instead an amendment to the constitution, so a simple majority would not be sufficient.

Unknown said...

Whatever happened to "the People have spoken"...???

Was that statement only applicable to the Los Osos Recall...??? Is that statement only applicable when our side wins the election...??? Do we really get to pick out only our popular opinions...??? Do we want 2 sides to every difference of opinion or do we want to fight on everytime we don't get our own way...???

Billy Dunne said...

Ann says: Dear Prop 8 supporters, before this battle heats up again, you need to ‘splain -- exactly – what it is you really object to here. What’s really behind the fear?


Much like my theory that macho men who drive very, very big trucks and coddle their very, very big guns are compensating for their very small, uh, "egos" if you know what I mean, I feel all those who obsessively persecute gays are compensating for their own feelings of, "confusion" about their own sexual identity.

That's my theory, and I'm sticking with it.

But what do I know. I'll be doing an eternity in the fire for all those Sundays I worked in the restaurant business:

"For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
Exodus35:2

(Not to mention all those Sundays I wasn't working I spent playing touch football):

"And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. 8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you."
Liviticus 11:7-8

alabamasue said...

Shark,
I didn't mean to imply that Prop 8 should be overturned based on uninformed voters. It is more likely to happen because passing a discriminatory law won't fly with the Supreme Court. But we'll see...

Watershed Mark said...

MG wrote: Mark, what about equal protection under the law and that little bit about "pursuit of happiness"?

MG,
When homosexuals begin to pump out live birth from within their own unions(without government sponsored sex change operations) we can revisit the "equal protection" argument.
-Infertility within heterosexual unions is a horse of a different color. But that’s just my opinion.

Remember that, half of all marriages end in divorce. Whatever happened to “living together”?

MIKE wrote: Whatever happened to "the People have spoken"...???

On this we can agree.

ABS: Prop 8 was passed. There is no accounting for the will of the people.

Mike Green said...

Well Mark, I just happen to be one of those different colored horses ( a somewhat insulting term by the way )
Married 30 years with (GASP) no kids
By choice too.
What say you? Should I be stripped of all the benefits of legal marriage because I didn't increase the population?
As far as "The people spoke"
The constitution speaks very clearly on that in that no state may enact laws which violate the basic freedoms as outlined in the constitution and the bill of rights.
Protecting minority rights should trump religious ideology.
I think it would be better if the government just got completely out of the question and dropped all mention of the word marriage.
I also think anyone that supported prop 8 and has had a divorce is a hypocrite of the highest order.
Family values and saving marriage my patooty.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark says:
"Infertility within heterosexual unions is a horse of a different color."

And what color is heterosexual unions among people too old to bear children? Or heterosexual unions where the choice is made to have no children - or to adopt children? Is artificial insemination a no-no?

You seem to be saying that the ability to produce children is the basis for the definition of marriage.

So what about homosexual couples who adopt? Are those kids to be penalized?

Yikes. With this kind of thinking women should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen over a vat of stew, with the nice black woman out in the fields pickin' cotton.

Maybe I am just not religious enough to think civil rights should be dictated biblically. Marriage is a civil right in my books.

Frank said...

yes MG, you should be stripped of all rights for not procreating and creating successors to pay for my (and your) Social Security. How dare you not think about my rights to Social Security. You still have time, so consider adopting as your saving grace!!

Watershed Mark said...

MG:
Watershed Mark said...
Marriage is not a Constitutionally guaranteed "Right".

7:28 AM, November 24, 2008

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette,

Fortunately we have a Constitution and Laws instead of your books" to live by.

Please don't puwords in my mouth like Steve.
Is there something in your water?

Mike Green said...

Frank, LOL, however adopting does not increase the population, so the net effect would be nil.

Mark, the issue is equal protection and rights as stated in the constitution. And you are right, the word marriage aint in there, it shouldn't be in the States constitution either.

I think Ann's succinct observations pretty much makes that case.

Watershed Mark said...

Social Security?
What a joke...

By the time the Californication of it's own economy runs its course you won't or will not be able to live there on SS, ask anyone who is living on it now ("MIKE").

Watch what happens if that gravity sewer/secondary(to be upgraded later to tertiary)WWTP followed by storm drains and Naciamento Water Project scenario gets its nose under the tent and into your pocketbooks.

Soacial "Sevurity"...Yeah Right.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Uhhhhhh! We shoudda stuck with Tri-W. There would be no tom murphy OR ws mark!

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

ws mark:
"Marriage is not a Constitutionally guaranteed "Right"

Neither is breathing air, but we do it anyway.

Shark Inlet said...

'Toons ...

We don't need to worry about breathing in WaterShedVille even though it's not a listed constitutional right. Mark will sell us a cold-fusion device which will allow us to convert water directly into oxygen. We can also use the hydrogen released from this for our fuel cell vehicles. It's a proven technology (there is a memo from the inventors of cold fusion which proves it and no, you can't look at that memo, only pages 1-3 and 48) and if you doubt Mark's device you are clearly not interested in the best solution to all our problems and by the way, Barack Obama is half black and half white, just like Michael Jackson and Gay Marriage is wrong because the will of the people is otherwise and that rule always holds except when the will of the people is for the County process for selecting a sewer site and technology.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Thank you Shark!!! Brilliant assessment, as always, and dead on target!!

Watershed Mark said...

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

Churadogs said...

Sewertoons (responding to Mark's comment) sez:"You seem to be saying that the ability to produce children is the basis for the definition of marriage.

So what about homosexual couples who adopt? Are those kids to be penalized?"

It gets even weirder. Lesbian couples who use artificial insemination to get pregnant, just like heterosexual couples may have to use artifical (donated sperm) to have a baby (or in vitro fertilization, etc.), or lesbian couples who were married and had kids the "regular" way, or gay men couples who were married and had kids the "regular" way, or gay men couples who use their sperm and a surrogate mom to carry their kid, just like some straight couples use the husband's sperm and a surrogate mom, etc. So somehow thinking that gay people don't have kids ("real" genetic kids) is false. And trying to somehow figure out how to define "family." get's weird, since straight families are an identical muddled mixture of "real" genetic, adopted, surrogate, invitro etc.

So, in addition to the word "marriage" (what the hell does that mean nowadays?) now we gotta talk about what the hell "family" even means anymore.

As has been pointed out, times change, customs change, definitions change, reality changes. It's all change, so our laws have to change too. And while our "civilizaiton" is veneer think (and subject to relinquishment to demagogues and dictators -- the "natural" inclinatiion of human tribal monkeys --) the general drift of a democracy is to exapnd rights and fairness, not reduce it. So, Mike's right. Slowly, over time, those right's and fairness expands. This will happen here. Then we can dream up sme new way to go stick some other minority in the barrel and strt shooting them, so we'll have to start all over again. It's just what frightened human tribal monkeys do.

Watershed Mark said...

Using medicine to create and destroy life is a tricky business.
It is also a personal issue that should not be sponsored by the government "camel".

Speaking of frightened human monkeys: http://cfpub.epa.gov/owm/septic/index.cfm

One in four households can expect some capture and torment LO/BP Style.

From Obstructionists to World Visionaries or down the drain?

alabamasue said...

From today's Tribune:"California officials to look into Morman church's aid to Prop. 8". Very interesting. If anything of substance is discovered, perhaps they could lose their tax-exempt status?
Homophobe Mark,
What did your last posting have to do with the topic at hand? Try to focus.

Watershed Mark said...

When the Tribune finishes with the Mormon Church they can take a peek at Jesse Jackson's 501C3 Corp, if they are intellectually honest.

I guess I won't hold my breath.

ABS,

This one's for you:

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

More tea?

Watershed Mark said...

Careful ABS, your bias is showing.

I don't agree with you or any "label maker", that because I voted in favor of heterosexual marriage that I am a homophobe.

What's with all the name calling? Is it suddenly a problem to be heterosexual?

What are you an "elitist"? See what I mean. I don’t believe you to be an elitist, I have never met you and by your writing I certainly wouldn’t begin to classify you as anything other than “confused” about sewerage and treatment technologies.

/////////////////////////////////
Once more because you brought it up:

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

Fact is, I will never tire of repeating Paavo’s words, even if he doesn’t end up living up to them for LO/BP, the very project that “prompted” him to say them.
Think of the example these words provide now and in the future.

Watershed Mark said...

ABS,

A reminder...This is Ann's Land.
When she speaks, everyone listen.

Mike Green said...

Mark put these words into his own mouth:
" I voted in favor of heterosexual marriage "
Oh really? Please tell us where you voted FOR heterosexual marriage, I don't recall any vote FOR what already exists.
Seems that maybe the "didn't understand what they voted for" argument may hold some water.

Billy Dunne said...

Fact is, I will never tire of repeating Low's words:

"At the end of a process the community will know a lot more than it does now. .......The LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution is "best". But that is already known, now...FACT."
(Feb. 29, 2008 "Recovery 101, Part Tres or Quartro)

Your boy Murphy thanks you Marky, but I wonder how your boys at the new snake oil factory you represent feel about your "facts."

Watershed Mark said...

An onsite solution as mentioed above would be best. Failure of the company to perform in a fudiciary manner is what killed than solution.

Repeat away Willy, knock yourself out.
I will hope you read a little closer this time around. It is going to cost you, if you actually live in LO/BP, dearly.

Try not to be mis-guided

Watershed Mark said...

HI MIKE:
Answer: When I voted to harden the State of Arizona's Constitution to keep heterosexual marriage as the definition of marriage.

Sorry MIKE. Better luck next time.

Mike Green said...

So uh, tell me Mark, was the state of marriage so shaky in Arizona that it needed shoring up?
Was the effect of the vote FOR heterosexual marriage? If so, how did heterosexual marriage benefit? Or was it really AGAINST any other form of domestic partnership that enjoyed all the benefits of legal (in that case heterosexual) marriage?
You do see the difference don't you?

Watershed Mark said...

MG,

We sucessful voters in Arizona watched in horror at the 9th. District Court of appeals (the most overturned appeals court in the land)recent rulings and thought it best to remove any future legal challenges to marriage as is.

Isn't it a great conutry we live in? States Rights and all.

BTW, "Almost" every legal right can be secured between "life partnrs" by contract, just like a marriage contract.

I don't make the laws, but do my best to follow them.

Mike Green said...

Almost only wins with horseshoes and handgrenades.
I want a "more perfect union"
and ya, it's a great country.
Sounds like your courts are alright.
That's encouraging.

Mike Green said...

Marks mouth uttered:
"I don't make the laws"
Maybe not in Arizona, but in California the voters do.
Nearly always turns out bad too, go figure.

Watershed Mark said...

We are both located in the 9th. District: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_district_court

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Until the discrimination that remains in this country is removed, we are not really "free" but only fooling ourselves.

Watershed Mark said...

Please identify a country which has more freedom than "US".

Behavior CANNOT be legislated.

Watershed Mark said...

An on site solution is BEST for LO/BP for several reasons:

Water:
is available onsite for reuse.
stays in the basin for future use.
the cost savings that come by not building a conveyance system.

I thought I would ammend my remarks above for Willy.

Facts are stubborn things.

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette,

Your constant negativity has you trapped in "Wonderland".

More tea?

Watershed Mark said...

For those interested in septic tank talk outside of SLOCO.

http://www.co.cayuga.ny.us/hhs/doh/environmental/septicsystem.htm

Billy Dunne said...

"At the end of a process the community will know a lot more than it does now. .......The LOSTDEP RECLAMATOR Solution is "best". But that is already known, now...FACT."

Fact Mr. Mark. From your mouth to our ears. No sense in amending anything. You in all your grand pomposity, in volumes and volumes and volumes written on this blog, have stated the Reclamator solution is the BEST. Care for me to go back and grab some more quotes from you? There's a lot there to work with.

Agreed. Facts are stubborn things.

Churadogs said...

Mark sez:"A reminder...This is Ann's Land.
When she speaks, everyone listen"

BWA-HAHAHAHAHAH.

Mark sez:"BTW, "Almost" every legal right can be secured between "life partnrs" by contract, just like a marriage contract."

Ah, it's in that "almost" that the trouble lies. Separate but equal schools for blacks and whites were "almost" the same as well. The question remains: What compelling state interest requires that gay couples get "almost" while straight couples get "all?" That's the question that needs to be answered, but so far I'm seeing no answers.

Mark sez:"Behavior CANNOT be legislated."

Huh??? We legislate behavior all the time. Stick up a bank? Bad behavior. You go to jail. Drive on the wrong side of the road? Bad behavior, you pay a fine. Molest a child? Really, really bad behavior, you go to jail, hopefully forever. & etc.

As for Paavo's quote about best technology & etc. You forgot to add one, uh, minor little name: Roger Briggs. Onsites are NOT allowed in the PZ, no permits issued for "discharges" or if he's (legally) forced to issue permits will make sure the cost is waaaaayyyyyy higher than any traditional system. Don't like it? Go to court and good luck to you.

alabamasue said...

HP Mark-
This thread is supposed to be about Prop. 8, yet you continue to harp on and on about sewer issues! Since it looks like the county is going to go with gravity collection, maybe it's time for you to fold your "Medicine Show" tent and skulk off to another community. We don't need you here; never did. You and your ex-partner Murphy are bad jokes. Your repetitive quote "As Paavo Ogren stated..." means nothing, really, except that the county is open-minded. Cheapest is not always "best."

Frank said...

I give thanks that the County is doing the Wastewater Project. I give thanks that Ann understands absolutely nothing about wastewater systems and regulatory agencies and can never answer an uncomfortable question given to her and answers most questions with rhetoric mush. I give thanks that Ron understands absolutely nothing about wastewater systems and regulatory agencies and comforts himself none-the-less with his perceptions. I give thanks that Mark posts a gazillion idiot musings because humor is the best medicine.

alabamasue said...

Well said, Frank, well said.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark says:
An on site solution is BEST for LO/BP for several reasons:
"Water:
is available onsite for reuse.
stays in the basin for future use.
the cost savings that come by not building a conveyance system."

Sure - not building a conveyance system is cheaper, but as Ann points out, onsite discharge is not permitted by the Water Board.

As to the rest:
Onsite reuse will not get us out of our saltwater intrusion trouble with the lower aquifer, as most water use is indoors, toilet flushing not being the primary indoor use. Please explain how we will get that "reuse" water from onsites into the lower aquifer, which is where we need to halt the saltwater intrusion. Watering your yard does not accomplish that, and we already have the overabundant water from the present septics leaking into the bay.

Now try to explain away THOSE stubborn facts.

Watershed Mark said...

For Willy:
An on site solution is BEST for LO/BP for several reasons:

Water:
is available onsite for reuse.
stays in the basin for future use.
the cost savings that come by not building a conveyance system.

Watershed Mark said...

Reuse on site slows the draw on any water source.

Watershed Mark said...

Ann wrote:
Huh??? We legislate behavior all the time. Stick up a bank? Bad behavior. You go to jail. Drive on the wrong side of the road? Bad behavior, you pay a fine. Molest a child? Really, really bad behavior, you go to jail, hopefully forever. & etc.

The behavior continues in spite of these penalties.

Now if California can get back to the death penalty perhaps/just maybe there will be true behavioral modification in the areas to which that penalty apply.

Still have those high speed chases even though the penalties were toughened up.

As far as an 1983 edict that prohibits waste discharges in a "unscientifically prescribed zone" unilaterally I shall quote Thomas Jefferson:
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

Watershed Mark said...

If you want to stop the draw on the lower aquifer buy Lake Naciamento Water from the county.

If "trhe plan" is to build more homes in the area, that will need to happen anyway.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark, "trhe plan" is to build on the vacant lots in Los Osos - some people bought those lots 30 years ago and haven't been able to build.

Beyond that, I say the bulk of Los Osos would want to see what was proposed and would be very skeptical - so I wouldn't assume that LO wants to build at all. We can sustain our basin at buildout without Nacimiento water if we recharge.

I guess you don't "get" that the years of No Sewer was primarily No Growth, more than anything else.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

I might add that many didn't "get" the no-growthiness of Tri-W and its finite capacity limits of "buildout only" and also failed to realize the potential threat of an expandable plant out of town.

Only a few true believers think this thing is going to be cheap whichever way it goes.

Go ahead and sue the Water Board to try to get an allowance for on-lot discharge, but our new plant, whatever and wherever, will be up and running by the time you are through.

And just to be on topic for part of this, I hope the courts get rid of the abomination of discrimination.

Frank said...

BayNews reports the Tri-W project contracted cost to complete was $116 million. BayNews reports the 2008'environmentally preferred project out-of-town' is estimated to cost $165 million. So the increase in cost for changing a project is now at about $50 million, not to mention the Bankruptcy cost, and does not return as much water as the Tri-W project, and does not include the continued costs of pollution until a plant gets built.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette,
I’m surprised you believe that I am suing the WB regarding on-site systems.
Didn’t you read the complaint? Aren’t you keeping track of the case? You must be slipping…

The SLOCO BOS will decide what gets built in LO/BP, not “the people”.

Good luck in court regarding your desire for legalized homosexual (not a protected class) marriages.

Discrimination toward or against a person or group is the prejudicial treatment of them based on certain characteristics. It can be positive behavior directed towards a certain group, or negative behavior directed against a certain group. The latter is the most common meaning, i.e. negative discrimination. Discrimination on grounds such as race or religion is generally illegal in most Western societies, while discriminating between people on the grounds of merit is usually lawful. The latter is more commonly referred to as "differentiating." When prejudicial discrimination takes place, it is usually described as discrimination toward or against a person or group of people, rather than discrimination between people or groups, which is simply the discernment of qualities and recognition of the differences. This article focuses on the prejudicial sense of discrimination.
Unlawful discrimination can be characterized as direct or subtle. Direct discrimination involves treating someone less favorably because of their possession of an attribute (e.g., sex, age, race, religion, family status, national origin, military status, sexual orientation, disability, body size/shape), compared with someone without that attribute in the same circumstances. An example of direct discrimination would be not offering a job to a woman because she is likely to take maternity leave whereas a man is not. Indirect or subtle discrimination involves setting a condition or requirement which a smaller proportion of those with the attribute are able to comply with, without reasonable justification. The U.S. case of Griggs v. Duke Power Company[2] provides an example of indirect discrimination, where an aptitude test used in job applications was found "to disqualify Negroes at a substantially higher rate than white applicants".

Watershed Mark said...

On second thought, the fact that you don't have a good handle of the facts does not surprise me.

Watershed Mark said...

Frank,
Funny how the cost of the project will be far below the TRI-W when the county looks at the technology available, instead of ignoring it.

Unknown said...

Thanks Frank... "BayNews reports the Tri-W project contracted cost to complete was $116 million. BayNews reports the 2008'environmentally preferred project out-of-town' is estimated to cost $165 million. So the increase in cost for changing a project is now at about $50 million, not to mention the Bankruptcy cost, and does not return as much water as the Tri-W project, and does not include the continued costs of pollution until a plant gets built."

Yes, had Gail Mc not influenced the easily led group of anti-anything, any where, at any cost, we would have had a modern waste water treatment facility operational by now...

Let's all give thanks this Thanksgiving for the wonderful leadership who have directly caused the largest bankruptcy of a CSD in the entire USA...!!!! Thanks to Lisa, Julie, Chuck, John and Steve...you have lied so long that you really believed the community suported your quest to de-rail any project.... Guess we'll all soon see what a judge thinks about the fiscal mismanagement....

I give thanks for all the pre-recall Directors who gave so much of themselves for the entire community....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

mark, are you then assigning "merit" to ones sexual orientation, as you feel gay people should not be allowed to marry (your quote - "discriminating between people on the grounds of merit is usually lawful.")?

Yes, the SLO BOS will decide and they are not likely to be fooled by the likes of you. They will discriminate between a technology that is appropriate for LO and your product which lacks merit or applicability to our situation.

mark, what do you not get about NO discharge in the PZ? You do not read carefully. I didn't say that you are suing, but that if you want your technology to prevail, that is what you will have to do. And then of course, you will have to win.

Unknown said...

Sewertoons... I've quit letting Mark bait me.... He has no say in what will happen in Los Osos... It is simply a waste of time to respond to him as Ann has apparently allowed him to take over "her" blog.... You have a wonderful Thanksgiving and think about not responding to anything Mark writes... Ann must agree with the volumes of everything he writes or she would have taken action...

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette,

Personally, I couldn't care less about "one's sexual orientation".
I believe that babies in the womb should not be murdered.

Which technology are you refering to?

MIKE,

Time to get into that "Wild Turkey" buddy, I can hardley wait until you are in full tilt...

Maybe you'll get up enough liquid courage to post your real name...or maybe you'll just stay on the porch.

Sewertoons AKA Lynette Tornatzky said...

Thank you Mike, that is good advice - I hope that you have a wonderful Thanksgiving too!

One last parting shot to mark - we don't care what Mike's name is on this blog, the name "Mike" is just fine as it is - why is this so important to you?

Watershed Mark said...

Because he makes such idiotic statements, from his closet.

If he stood up like a real person perhaps his rhetoric would improve.

If it didn't we wolud at least know who he is, Lynette.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE's "BLAME GAME" from his closet is a very tired tale.

I guess he feels all warm and safe hiding in the clost while making accusations believing he will never have to personally answer for them.

Technology marches on MIKE...Keep typing.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette,

Personally, I couldn't care less about "one's sexual orientation".
I believe that babies in the womb should not be murdered.

Which technology are you refering to?

I know the tough ones spook you...

Churadogs said...

Sewertons sez:"Sure - not building a conveyance system is cheaper, but as Ann points out, onsite discharge is not permitted by the Water Board.

Be carful, toonces, Frank has already concluded that "I give thanks that Ann understands absolutely nothing about wastewater systems and regulatory agencies . . . " and you agreed with him, yet here you are pointing out that apaprently I DO know about regulatory agencies, so he'll have to now conclude the same about you?

Mark sez:"Direct discrimination involves treating someone less favorably because of their possession of an attribute (e.g., sex, age, race, religion, family status, national origin, military status, sexual orientation, disability, body size/shape),"

So forbidding gays to marry is Direct Discrimination?" i.e. treating someone less favorably because of their . . sexual orientation . . .?

Mike sez:""BayNews reports the Tri-W project contracted cost to complete was $116 million. BayNews reports the 2008'environmentally preferred project out-of-town' is estimated to cost $165 million."

I give thanks that most people I know do not take the guestimates given to the Bay News as "gospel." Not at this point in the process. I give thanks that most people I know say, "Let's see how this shakes out before we fall to the ground toi kiss the feet of the Los Osos 3 who put this commuity in the shooting barrel in the first place."

Mike sez:"Ann must agree with the volumes of everything he writes or she would have taken action..."

I've allowed everyone a lot of lattitude -- including you, Mike. If you want me to start dumping comments that are off topic or stupid or mean or lies or back-biting repetitive nonsense, I'd have to start with YOU, Mike. And I'm sure you wouldn't want that, now would you?

Mark sez:"If he [Mike] stood up like a real person perhaps his rhetoric would improve." And sez:"I guess he feels all warm and safe hiding in the clost while making accusations believing he will never have to personally answer for them."

That can be said about ALL you "anonymous" posters. Right, Steve? Right, Lynette? Right, Whoever?

Shark Inlet said...

Warning ...

the individual who posted this comment is not our beloved host, Ann Calhoun but instead a spoofer trolling for an over reaction.

Don't give in to the temptation to respond.

And, to the real Ann ... Happy Thanksgiving ... we appreciate you and your willingness to be such a gracious host here ... and don't let the trolls get you down!

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette wrote: mark, what do you not get about NO discharge in the PZ?

Lynette given that the SLOCO PIS allows for up to 499 gallons per day per diameter inch per mile “discharge” how can a leaky gravity collection pipe be permitted in the PZ.

Looks to me that a sealed E/ONE style system would actually be compliant. I guess we will just to see “if” that leaky discharging pipe is actually submitted and approved.

Talk about “liability”… I can hardly wait!

Not much of a game between Dallas and Seattle.
I hope the Cards will do better against the Eagles.

Watershed Mark said...

Steve,
Are you admitting to being a troll?

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette wrote: mark, what do you not get about NO discharge in the PZ?

Lynette given that the SLOCO PIS allows for up to 499 gallons per day per diameter inch per mile “discharge” how can a leaky gravity collection pipe be permitted in the PZ?

Looks to me that a sealed E/ONE style system would actually be compliant. I guess we will just have to wait and see “if” that leaky discharging pipe is actually submitted and approved.

Talk about “liability”… I can hardly wait!

Not much of a game between Dallas and Seattle.
I hope the Cards will do better against the Eagles.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette given that the SLOCO PIS allows for up to 499 gallons per day per diameter inch per mile “discharge”, how can a leaky gravity collection pipe be permitted in the PZ?

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

Churadogs said...

Mark sez:"Lynette given that the SLOCO PIS allows for up to 499 gallons per day per diameter inch per mile “discharge” how can a leaky gravity collection pipe be permitted in the PZ."

Good question. I suppose Briggs can set "discharge" numbers anywhere he wants to?

Watershed Mark said...

Enviornmental "equal protection"?

Realistic1 said...

Mark,

I quoted the first paragraph of the Constitution directly.

Now, from the dictionary...

lib-er-ty

freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.

freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

Liberty is a synonym for freedom, jackass. Look it up.

Watershed Mark said...

R1 wrote: Liberty is a synonym for freedom, jackass. Look it up.

Interesting perspective from someone who doesn't what their real identity known.

You may consider changing your handle to "anti-realist" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism Jack, Jill or Nill...

Realistic1 said...

I notice you didn't challenge me further on my definition of liberty or freedom as it relates to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Go figure.


FYI - "Wikipedia" isn't considered a scholarly source for ANYTHING.

Watershed Mark said...

Realistically speaking why would a closeted personality want to argue freedom or liberty?
When you are a ghost with no real identity why would it matter? Liberating isn’t it? Feel free to respond.

Watershed Mark said...

"Sophist" redirects here. For the Dialogue of Plato, see Sophist (dialogue).
Sophism can mean two very different things: In the modern definition, a sophism is a confusing or illogical argument used for deceiving someone. In Ancient Greece, the sophists were a group of teachers of philosophy and rhetoric.


The Greek words sophos or sophia had the meaning of "wise" or "wisdom" since the time of the poet Homer, and originally connoted anyone with expertise in a specific domain of knowledge or craft. Thus a charioteer, a sculptor, a warrior could be sophoi in their occupation. Gradually the word came to denote general wisdom and especially wisdom about human affairs (in, for example, politics, ethics, or household management). This was the term given to the Greek Seven Sages of 7th and 6th Century BC (like Solon and Thales), and this was the meaning that appeared in the histories of Herodotus. At about the same time, the term sophistes was a synonym for "poet", and (by association with the traditional role of poets as the teachers of society) a synonym for one who teaches, in particular through the performance of prose works or speeches that impart practical knowledge. Richard Martin refers to the seven sages as "performers of political poetry."1

In the second half of the 5th century BC, particularly at Athens, "sophist" came to denote a class of itinerant intellectuals who taught courses in "excellence" or "virtue," speculated about the nature of language and culture and employed rhetoric to achieve their purposes, generally to persuade or convince others. Sophists claimed that they could find the answers to all questions. Most of these sophists are known today primarily through the writings of their opponents (specifically Plato and Aristotle), which makes it difficult to assemble an unbiased view of their practices and beliefs.

Many of them taught their skills for a price. Due to the importance of such skills in the litigious social life of Athens, practitioners often commanded very high fees. The practice of taking fees, along with the sophists' practice of questioning the existence and roles of traditional deities (this was done to make "the weaker argument appear the stronger") and investigating into the nature of the heavens and the earth prompted a popular reaction against them. Their attacks against Socrates (in fictional prosecution speeches) prompted a vigorous condemnation from his followers, including Plato and Xenophon, as there was a popular view of Socrates as a sophist. Their attitude, coupled with the wealth garnered by many of the sophists, eventually led to popular resentment against sophist practitioners and the ideas and writings associated with sophism.

Protagoras is generally regarded as the first of the sophists. Others include Gorgias, Prodicus, Hippias, Thrasymachus, Lycophron, Callicles, Antiphon, and Cratylus.

In comparison, Socrates accepted no fee, instead adopting a self-effacing posture, which he exemplified by Socratic questioning (i.e. the Socratic method, although Diogenes Laertius wrote that Protagoras—a sophist—invented the “Socratic” method[1][2]). His attitude towards the Sophists was by no means oppositional; in one dialogue Socrates even stated that the Sophists were better educators than he was [3], which he validated by sending one of his students to study under a sophist.[4] W. K. C. Guthrie associated Socrates with the Sophists in his History of Greek Philosophy.[4]

Plato, the most illustrious student of Socrates, depicts Socrates as refuting the sophists in several Dialogues. These texts depict the sophists in an unflattering light, and it is unclear how accurate or fair Plato's representation of them may be; however, it is also suggested that such criticism was often ironic. Another contemporary, the comic playwright Aristophanes, criticizes the sophists as hairsplitting wordsmiths, yet suggests that Socrates was one of their number.

Plato is largely responsible for the modern view of the "sophist" as a greedy instructor who uses rhetorical sleight-of-hand and ambiguities of language in order to deceive, or to support fallacious reasoning. In this view, the sophist is not concerned with truth and justice, but instead seeks power. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle all challenged the philosophical foundations of sophism.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophism

Watershed Mark said...

Wisdom begins in wonder.
Socrates

Watershed Mark said...

As Paavo Ogren stated in August 2007- If there is a technology that is significantly less expensive”, “then that technology becomes the new standard and all others fall away”.

alabamasue said...

Realistic1,
Please do not respond to Watershed Mark Low's repetitive postings. He doesn't live here, doesn't vote here, etc. He is just trying to score a "finder's fee" for some outlandish, unneeded treatment scheme.Hey- he quotes Wikipedia. Need I say more?
I respect you: Don't fall for the BS.

Watershed Mark said...

ABS wrote: He is just trying to score a "finder's fee" for some outlandish, unneeded treatment scheme.

ABS,

The stupidity of your statement exemplifies the reason for my hobby of blog(m)arketing. When you focus on “my” pocketbook you are not focusing on yours or the county’s.
But if I have to explain that to you, it will most likely something you will not or don’t want to understand. That lack of common sense could unnecessarily cost you and the others in LO/BP, dearly.

When your emotional BS reasoning is exposed as shown here: “…some outlandish, unneeded treatment scheme” , I am encouraged mightily to continue to inform, expose and thereby educate.
Think of my efforts here as a vegetable you don’t like containing nutrients you need.

You may want to get yourself a copy of the ECOfluid generic proposal for the 1MGD Bioreactor MBR Title 22 Water Reclamation Facility I sent to Lynette and Steve.
I can send one to you and I can be reached @ Mark@NOwastewater.com if you can “handle” the information about the truth that will set you free while it conserves money, energy and water.

Funny how you think not responding and “hiding your head in the sand” will somehow “deter” me from continuing to continue. BWHAHAHAHAHA!
Insulting me only serves to demonstrate your bias which is one of the reasons I blog. You are actually encouraging me to soldier on. I LOVE LO!

Interesting as well is when one anonymous personality attempts to validate another. If you have such valid opinions ABS why not share your identity? Do you fear “accountability”?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accountability
Accountability is a concept in ethics with several meanings. It is often used synonymously with such concepts as answerability, enforcement, responsibility, blameworthiness, liability and other terms associated with the expectation of account-giving. As an aspect of governance, it has been central to discussions related to problems in both the public and private (corporation) worlds.
Accountability is defined as "A is accountable to B when A is obliged to inform B about A’s (past or future) actions and decisions, to justify them, and to suffer punishment in the case of eventual misconduct" [1].
In leadership roles, accountability is the acknowledgment and assumption of responsibility for actions, products, decisions, and policies including the administration, governance and implementation within the scope of the role or employment position and encompassing the obligation to report, explain and be answerable for resulting consequences.

Watershed Mark said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Osos,_California

The community has been required by the California Coastal Commission to build a sewer in order to obviate the need for septic tanks in Los Osos. The California Coastal Commission issued a building moratorium for Los Osos because the town's septic tanks are too numerous and concentrated to dissipate nitrates. The cost of the sewer is estimated to be well over $150 million and home-owners have been told that they may be assessed a sewer fee in excess of $200 a month. The Los Osos Community Services District was formed by residents as a response to the high cost of the original sewer proposal, and is the agency in charge of building the sewer, also providing the town's drinking water, drainage, parks, recreation, and street lighting.

There is also a controversy about where the sewer should be built. A location in the center of Los Osos (also known as the Tri-W site after the name of the property) was chosen, partly because of a desire for an additional park. The County, water board and Coastal Commission approved a sewer at the Tri-W site after hearing critic's claims.

In August 2005, the CSD began building a sewer at the Tri-W site, contractors began work on the project and were advanced payments from State Revolving Fund loan. Following a recall election which replaced the majority of the CSD board and enacted an initiative measure that would require relocation of the project, the new board stopped building the sewer, despite a letter warning them of severe consequences from the Regional Water Quality Control Board. Due to the action of the new CSD board, the costs of the sewer project have greatly increased.

This last sentence will be corrected when the correct actions are taken by the government and her citizens.

That my friends is one of the reasons why I am working in LO.

alabamasue said...

Hey- he quotes Wikipedia. Need I say more?

Realistic1 said...

a-sue:

You are absolutely right. After this, I won't respond again to Snake Oil Mark.

Mark:

Certain posters on this blog know who I am, because I CHOSE to reveal myself to them.

CHOICE is a word you're not comfortable with. Too bad, so sad.

One of the freedoms I enjoy is to CHOOSE not to reveal my identity.

It doesn't make my comments about the Constitution any less valid.

Have a pleasant weekend...

Real 1

Watershed Mark said...

a⋅non⋅y⋅mous   /əˈnÉ’nÉ™mÉ™s/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-non-uh-muhs] Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. without any name acknowledged, as that of author, contributor, or the like: an anonymous letter to the editor; an anonymous donation.
2. of unknown name; whose name is withheld: an anonymous author.
3. lacking individuality, unique character, or distinction: an endless row of drab, anonymous houses.

Need I say more? Why not...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(group)

Anonymous (used as a mass noun) is a label and Internet meme adopted within Internet culture to represent the actions of many online community users acting anonymously usually toward a loosely agreed-upon goal. It is generally considered as a blanket term—not tied to any monolithic group—for the vox populi or members of the Internet culture.[1]

Actions attributed to Anonymous are undertaken by unidentified individuals who apply the Anonymous label to themselves. Incidents which are said to be associated with Anonymous are rarely connected to an organized group.[2] The phenomenon has received much of its publicity through Project Chanology and its protests against the Church of Scientology.

Watershed Mark said...

Your comments about the Constitution aside why are you ashamed to take personal responsibility for them?
I love my freedom of choice. It’s why I will continue to speak for those who cannot. Choose carefully… Your choices have consequences.

Have a great life! Aren’t you happy someone didn’t choose to end it for you?

Watershed Mark said...

How do we know you really are real, unless you tell us who you are?

Shark Inlet said...

Realistic,

On the whole question of whether one chooses to reveal his or her identity ... it would seem that this is not always a choice that one is allowed to make. Presumably there are folks who are willing to dig a lot and/or pay others to reveal the identity of some who desire to remain anonymous.

Realistic1 said...

Shark,

For reasons passing understanding, you were outed and disparaged (dare I say libeled) by just such an individual. It would seem those who feel the need to dig should have better things to do, no?

Obviously, there are those who would deprive us of every individual choice if given the opportunity...I'm just sorry they felt the pathetic need to do it to you just so they could feel "powerful".

I have a question for you, though. Since we now know you are a professor, what would you say to a student who offered a citation from Wikipedia on a research paper? Just curious.

Watershed Mark said...

It is interesting how Steve "may have" been outed by another anonymouse...I find a certain "poetic justice" quality about that.
It is humorous to me as well. BWAHAHAHA

Good thing I'm not in Steve's class. Futhermore his opinions are of little to no value as he makes comments he doesn't or cannot back up.

How is anything any anonymouse writes to be considered credible?

Steve and Lynette could have outed themselves using another "made up" personality.

Next.

Shark Inlet said...

Realistic,

As a statistician, I am more favorably disposed to Wikipedia than most. (And I don't every really assign anyone a writing task which involves citations, so my opinion may very well differ from someone from history or engineering.) One of the cool things about Wikipedia is that it tends to be as accurate as it is. I think this not unrelated to the work of Galton who observed that the average of many guesses (of the weight of an ox) is far more precise as an estimate of the actual value (the weight of the ox) than are the individual guesses themselves and that, oddly enough, the guesses averaged out to the real weight. The "markets" for the presidential election work of the same principal ... many folks, even if biased ... working together then to have a far more precise idea than does any one individual.

As to Mark, don't let the idiots get you down. Folks who wanna control a conversation will often try to dominate the discussion and if you don't play along they tend to say that you are wrong and that your unwillingness to participate in their game proves it.

Watershed Mark said...

By all means marry. If you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher and that is a good thing for any man.
Socrates

Watershed Mark said...

Steve answers R1's Question:One of the cool things about Wikipedia is that it tends to be as accurate as it is.

I hope this works for you R1...

Watershed Mark said...

I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.
Socrates