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Wednesday, October 15, 2008

CSD Candidate Forum on Channel 20

If you missed the CSD forum, can catch it on Channel 20. Below is the schedule.

Los Osos COMMUNITY
SERVICES DISTRICT CANDIDATES FORUM, 10-13
DAILY 1:00 am, 9:00 am, and 6:00 pm

197 comments:

Alon Perlman said...

You can reach all LOCSD '08 candidates written information in link below. Candidates who also have other web sites have a link in the upper right corner of their smartvoter.org main pages.

All Candidates




This links to Perlman web page
http://smartvoter.org/vote/perlman

GetRealOsos said...

FORUM ROUNDUP


ALON,

Good job last night - loved your comment about our water basin and how unusual and wonderful it really is. Good for you. You've got one of my votes.



MARSHALL,

You lied about bailiffs having to be at the BOS to handle Los Osos speakers. Simply didn't happen!

Why would you on one hand talk about trust and then, on the other, tell an outright lie about the bailiff story?

You said you had been to the last two BOS meetings -- but where were you for years before that? Not at BOS meetings or speaking for the community? Or, were the last two BOS meetings, while you were running for election and springboarding off the bad TAC, your only two BOS meetings??

It was at the last two meetings that you witnessed the unruly behavior by LO speakers requiring bailiffs. Tell me, Marshall, you are an attorney, held to a higher standard -- and you are a terrible witness and apparent liar (a requirement for attorneys?) Where did you buy your degree, Men's Colony? What year? Was that before or after Stan and Gordon's time there? You are on very thin ice as a candidate ... for Dogcatcher.

You talk about restoring trust and uniting the community, yet you lied about the "other half," making them look bad in public. So how was that "restoring trust"? Perhaps you meant "destroying trust." That must be it because you did a good job at it.

No vote from me because when you lie, I simply can NOT trust you for the truth.



MARIA,

I found it interesting that you talked about liking the diversity of the people in Los Osos, yet you want the most expensive gravity sewer that will obviously throw all the diversity you like out the window!!! The artists and craftsmen, the young working families, our entire middle class, homecare support, and businesses that depend on their dollars. That was certainly an oxy-"moron" on your part. Also, you never answered as to why YOU lied (at least twice on camera at the CSD and RWQCB meetings) that Karen, Piper, Mary and others were "No Sewer" people. EXACTLY WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAVE TO LIE ABOUT THIS ... AND INSULT PEOPLE ALONG THE WAY?! Very divisive comments. They are statements no unifier would ever resort to. So what we get with you is more of the same division.

KAREN AND DAVE DID A FINE JOB.

THE KEY QUESTION HERE IS WHO MADE THE "UNUSUAL REQUEST" AT THE DEBATE AT THE LAST MINUTE NOT TO TALK ANYTHING ABOUT THE SEWER SINCE IT WAS IN THE COUNTY'S HANDS, ALTERING THE LANDSCAPE OF THE DEBATE??? The County does not officially have the project -- the County would agree -- so to use that as an excuse is "inexcusable" on the League of Women Voter's part. To ambush the process with an unread letter from an unidentified source, changing the rules without first sharing them with ALL the candidates is very suspicious and smells of conflict of interest. Was there a Garfinkel to Garfinkel "fink-out" here???

Besides, initially before the AB2701/County process could even begin, this CSD board signed a resolution to work WITH the County (instead of the option to let the County completely take it over).
What happened? Doesn't anyone besides me remember this?

...Ann?

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

How did you feel the various candidates discussed the matter of the financial challenges of our town?

Which of them addressed this question and which did not?

Sewertoons said...

Gee getreal, I thought it was Gail that made the "UNUSUAL REQUEST" AT THE DEBATE AT THE LAST MINUTE NOT TO TALK ANYTHING ABOUT THE SEWER SINCE IT WAS IN THE COUNTY'S HANDS, ALTERING THE LANDSCAPE OF THE DEBATE???

That way Karen wouldn't go off on a STEP tangent ruining her chances with the undecided.

Churadogs said...

Sigh. My presumption is that taking the Sewer off the table (have no idea whose idea it was) was to remove a topic that (at this moment) has no relevancy-- until, that is, the EIR is in and the CSD weighs in and/or works WITH the county in whatever capacity they are allowed to work with the county & etc.). Sewer questions are, for now, a dead end and would have been a topic that would have taken up the entire two hours alloted and solved nothing. (The CSD will weigh in and the community will be "surveyed" and then whatever the BOS decides will be built. I suppose a good question might have been: If the BOS votes for a sewer system you don't like, will you vote to sue the county in some fashion and so delay the project?) I suspect the League (or whoever) felt it was (at this moment) more important to deal with the issues the CSD has control over right now (water, fire services, dealing with bankruptcy etc.) At least, that's my guess.

As for calling people "anti-sewer or "no sewer" people, that false mantra showed up with the Dreamers/TPWers as a deceptive "talking point, buzzword, misleading mantra." Anyone who was opposed to a sewer plant in the middle of town (i.e. TRI-W as it was drawn) was automatically labeled an "Anti-Sewer Obstructionist." Pro STEP/STEG people were "Anti-Sewer Obstructionists." Pro gravity with treatment plant out of town people were "Anti-Sewer Obstructionists," and so forth. That intentional, deliberatly false, dismissive description was INTENDED to mislead and deceive and stop all debate and discussion. And it was everywhere, like raindrops in the Amazon Basin. Just another part of the deliberate corruption of language in "political" discourse -- Let's call it Lee Atwater and Newt Gingrich's and Karl Rove's enduring and damaging legacy to America. And, apparently it's still alive and well and showing up in our little CSD forums . . . again. Sigh.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Ann,

You missed one of the unhelpful labels. People who are in favor of whatever gets the job done as quickly and cheaply as possible are called "TriW/gravity/county whores".

What is the key? To be as careful when characterizing our opponent's position as we would want them to be when describing our own.

For example, I am sure on STEP versus gravity, the monthly bill will be pretty close (the cheaper will be less than $50/month cheaper) after all factors (like energy, O&M, the cost of putting in the sewer mains, the interest on this cost, the interest on the amount borrowed to replace one's tank, etc.) are included. Some people with easy to replace tanks may have a sizable one-time benefit from STEP versus gravity and others (with tanks in the back yard) may find STEP considerably more expensive ... that one time.

The key point here is that all of the research on the costs of each system have such large margins of error that we cannot really know which is cheaper because ... based on an engineer's report and the community survey, a decision will be made and then the job will go out for bids. It would only be if two separate systems were fully designed and two separate systems went out for bids that we could then compare the "real" costs. The problem is that to fully design both systems (as opposed to just one) would probably cost more than would be saved by going with the one that is cheaper in the long run. Not a good financial move.

STEP versus gravity seems to be a matter of religion with both sides promoting the "reports" that they believe to be on their side and talking down the "reports" that they feel side against them.

I suspect this all is a matter of religion (collection system type, treatment method, location) because of the long and sordid past of this whole process. People only tend to care about these sort of things which typically only the "experts" fully understand care about when they've made a personal commitment to one side or the other. Pandora and Julie each have a lot of people who view them as heroes and lots of others who view them as villains.

Life's too short to get caught up in sewer fundamentalism (whatever the kind). Let's get something built that solves the problem quick.

As Mark pointed out elsewhere here, we've got an unusually good (pair) of aquifers for our town. Getting the sewer online ASAP will allow us to use these aquifers without trashing them.

Piper said...

Shark Inlet, you may want to take a look at Morro Bay and ask how they fouled their two aquifers. Test have shown that run off is the main source of polution from the Los Osos side where as it is definatly the leaky gravity collection system from MB and the CMC that are poluting from the other. Wouldn't it be great if we tested all of our wells in Los Osos to see what the nitrate levels are currently? I'll bet we have the cleanest water around. And look, we are the only ones who don't have a conventional sewer. It has to make you wonder... "Life's too short to get cought up in sewer fundamentalism?", "Just build something fast", Dude, get a clue. If you really cared about our water supply you wouldn't write something so foolish. Sounds to me like you have alterior motives! Your team of Dreamers and TPW really need to stop lying about your opposition and get your facts straight. While your at it, how about using your real names and attending a meeting or two and even stepping up to the podium to let us all hear what you have to say instead of hiding and spewing endless non sense. I am Piper Reilly, I attend LOCAC, LOCSD, Water Board and BOS meetings where I speak in front of the camera and on the record. How about you?

Sewertoons said...

Piper, please explain the type of pipes that Morro Bay has, their age, and how well they have been maintained. Then tell me that this will be exactly what Los Osos will get if a gravity sewer is chosen.

The fact that you are talking about testing the wells, which is, by the way done daily by the water department crew on the wells that are safe to use to avoid as much overdraft as possible, kind of makes me think that you support the idea that we don't need a sewer.

Tell me about your plans to purchase a Wrecklamator, or is that finally over?

Billy Dunne said...

Congrats Piper on your sterling attendance at the aforementioned meetings. You seem to be quite the civic-minded one, which leads me ask you a question. During your numerous dramatic dress-downs of the Water board, the BOS, etc, before the camera, you've gone on record as being a big supporter of Tom Murphy and his Reclamator. Now, as you might or might not know, this is the same Tom Murphy who is being investigated for alleged fraud upon very innocent people in your (and my) community. Are you aware of this? The same Tom Murphy who recently ranted in the New Times, concerning all those who do not buy his Reclamator: "We're going to publish their names in the paper--just like they were child molesters, the same thing--it's crimminal." What a guy, huh? Being such a big supporter of his, it kinda makes me wonder just how much you really do care for your community. You condone, even encourage such misleading and extortionist behavior towards those who might not know any better in our community? Just wondering.

And it seems you are connected to Karen Vindetti's campaign. Hmmmm. So a vote for Karen is a vote for....Tom Murphy? I say, no thanks.

Piper said...

Dear Lynette and I'm not sure who "Billy Dunne" is, but obviously its a dreamer. Have you heard me say much about Tom lately? That would be a no,(guess you are not paying that much attention or perhaps just grasping at straws). No one who supported him does anymore. That's because he turned out to not be exactly who he claimed to be. Too bad since his product would have made a lot of sense (unlike you folks). I do not support a leaky sewer, like the one at CMC. (You know the conventional gravity system, the ones Carollo likes to build.) I also do not support gentrification nor destroying our community nor our envirnonment,(unlike you all). I am also not a blogger,(this was my first and probably last) but Shark Inlet comes up with such stupidity, and has mentioned me before, so I had to comment. Well Lynette, talk to me in person and Billy, you know who I am. Hopefully you will be civil when you see me, your lot tends to be pretty rude. Vote for Karen vote for Tom? That just shows how ridiculous you all really are. Can't even justify it with a response except to say, get a life. What a waste of time, I was fishing for shark and reeled in garbage. Over and out!

Piper said...

One last thing, Dave, Alon and Karen are honest and have morals, not so sure we can say that about your candidates. People who openly lye and want to gentrify a town and damn the environment, are not who I want to be represented by. If we had any decent way to get real news out, so that the truth is exposed, I am sure that the majority of this town would agree with me.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Piper ...

I mentioned you? When? I certainly don't remember any such mentioning.

Billy Dunne said...

Wow Piper. You sure are quick with the judgements, lables, and Republican smear ethos.

I'm not quite sure what a "Dreamer" is by your definition, but if it means I'm not like you and your ilk: mean-spirited dramatists; judgemental; and might I add, just a tad hypocritical, I guess I'm a dreamer.

Did you really ask me to be civil to you when you just called me garbage? You can do better than that, can't you?

And really Piper, two words of advice: Spell checker. It will help people take the venom you spew more seriously.

Piper said...

Sorry "Billy", did not mean to infer that you personally are garbage, just that your, grasping at straws, Tom comment, was. Sorry to Lynette too incase she also misinterpreted what I wrote, again the Tom thing is lame. Wish I could figure out how the spell check works... like I said before, this is not my usual gig. Also, not spewing venom, just truth. Funny how you all think we are rude when you are the ones trying to take our homes and community. Excuse me if I don't say "thank you" :)

GetRealOsos said...

Piper,

Thanks for tuning in, if just for a day.

I watched your last two public comments at the RWQCB and CSD.

You have more "brains" than Sewertoons, SharkInlet, Gordon/Mike/Crapkiller/Billy Dunne, Richard, Joyce Albright all put together.

Thank you for speaking up for the majority of people who don't have a clue what they're in for with the "Dreamers" of "Gravity" -- the costs, the repairs, the accidents, and everything else bad that goes with out-dated technology that ruins the environment.

P.S. Maybe now Ann can understand why people don't want to use their REAL name only to get bashed and ganged up on -- who knows what they'll say to you when and if they run into you on the street!

Sewertoons said...

Hey, you have talked to me on the street. Have I ever been rude to you? (I have had people on the "step" side scream at me however.)

No one is trying to take anyone's home. But to not address the pollution of our drinking water supply is foolish at best and dangerous at worst. It has nothing to do with gentrifying the community. It is a matter of health. I don't want to see the health of the community compromised. I don't want to see the health of the environment endangered either, as is being done now.

To second guess what the costs of any technology will be right now is just that - a guess. Listening to SALESMEN - and I don't JUST mean Tom Murphy - is naive. They cannot provide real numbers at this point and are encouraging the community with false hope for something o be cheap. NO system will be cheap!

STEP has its problems too. NO SYSTEM WILL BE PERFECT! So why don't we just take a chill pill and wait for the County to continue with its process.

Real news is out there. Not agreeing with it doesn't meant it is untrue.

Piper said...

Dear SewerToons,

Funny you should call it the "step" side. When I was out tabling with the STEP tank I got yelled at plenty by people from your side! (By the way, I am not Murphy and I am not STEP I'm SUSTAINABILITY and that is supported by Sierra Club, SLO Green Build, Surfrider, and a host of others)

Perhaps no system is perfect, but fore most, the project should first do no harm and gravity poses considerable problems not found with other systems.

I'm not saying don't address polution problems,that's silly. That's your side spinning the issue. There is a lot of spun information coming from your side and that is the ultimate problem and this is not the forum to solve it in.

I personally have a lot of respect for you because you admit you are TPW, you attend meetings and you are not rude.

Lets be honest though, remember "fine them out of existance". Some folks ARE trying to take our homes.

I'm sure I'll see you soon and would love to talk then. Who knows maybe you and I can build that bridge of communication we so desperately need.

Watershed Mark said...

Piper wrote: Wouldn't it be great if we tested all of our wells in Los Osos to see what the nitrate levels are currently?
Very clear thinking indeed!

Why wait for next CSD Board, unless you don't want the data, now?
Seems testing and comparing these rrsults with those that set this whole pipe dream into motio would be a very judicious use uf ratepayer money.
Has anyone "on Board" pcked up the phone and called Basin Water? If not, why not?

Sewertoons said...

Piper,

When people are angry they often say things they wish they hadn't. I know I have. I don't believe when not angry, ANY person in this town wants people to have to move.

Maybe you can parse out for us the difference if there is one between the STEP people and the sustainability people. It seems those who support one support the other, but maybe I am wrong.

Spin isn't a component exclusive to the gravity side. Plenty on ALL sides. Getting to the truth will take some effort, and sadly, once minds are made up, I know it is hard to see other viewpoints. We all need to keep open minds because we will get one or the other. Some will be disappointed and how that disappointment is handled will determined the course of getting Los Osos out of the dark ages. That is why we should wait until the EIR is out and the NWRI report is made public before we cement out positions. Then we will have current, specific data to support what we say.

Piper said...

Dear SewerToons,

I have spent the past year studying poo and could spend longer writting about it. I would be delighted to speak with you anytime regarding these issues. I will end my "blogging career" by saying that there are lots of options that are sustainable but traditional gravity collection and conventional treatment are not. Nor is any system which costs more than 2% of the median income for a given community. This is per federal EPA guide lines. And finally, sustainable systems are wholistic, therefore a REUSE element must be integrated. Shark Inlet made the comment that "life is too short", well we're not just talking about our life time. This SYSTEM must work for generations to come. Therefor we can not build something of old, we must look at this in a new way and from what we have seen thus far, the County may not have done that. This is our concern. It is not so much of an issue of disappointment as it is the survival of the people, plants and animals of our town. Thanks for listening.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Boy it was funny when GetReal wrote "Maybe now Ann can understand why people don't want to use their REAL name only to get bashed and ganged up on -- who knows what they'll say to you when and if they run into you on the street!"

After all, it was GetReal who revealed my name here.

Thanks for the laugh!

Sewertoons said...

Hi Piper,

Thanks for writing back. I'm sure we will discuss this in the future, but for the benefit of people reading this blog who will not be part of that discussion, I'd like to address some issues here.

Cost cannot be used as a block to getting a sewer, so the measures the County is taking to help with affordability are of vital importance. The biggest savings will be in the terms of the loan, SRF is the cheapest - it looks like 30-year and 0% might actually be viable options. We can hope for Prop 85 money and WRDA money to lower the overall cost of the project, but who knows. For now, John Diodati has been working up a bunch of things which are available off the County site for those in lower income brackets (look at the bottom of the page):

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/pw/lowwp

The re-use element will have to be made in agreement with the water purveyors, at some point. I really don't know what that will look like. I'm not sure how adding that aspect into the cost of the project itself right now will help the disadvantaged, it is expensive enough without that. I wholly agree that it would be a crime to throw away our water. Engaging the purveyors will at least even the cost out to the ENTIRE community, not just those water customers who live in the PZ. Remember the 4 levels of project put out in the County reports? The wastewater system itself can only get to level 2 without the purveyors.

What do you mean by, "we must look at this in a new way and from what we have seen thus far, the County may not have done that." What hasn't the County done?

Hope you stop back in here to answer!

GetRealOsos said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
GetRealOsos said...

Shark says:

"After all, it was GetReal who revealed my name here...."

No, Shark, the funny part was that YOU were the one who told me to reveal your name!!

Who's laughing now Shark????

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

We've discussed this before. I was dumb to have trusted when you said that I did not live in the PZ. After all, because I do, I was misled into thinking you were wrong by your insistence.

I don't hold it against you, but I did get a laugh. You are right about the anonymity. Now I am afraid that someone named Howie will follow me through Vons and make notes of what I buy and put the shopping list online as a way of proving that I am not trustworthy enough for the faithful to believe. (After all, if I don't buy organic grapes, I must be a sinner.)


I rest assured in this. After all the blather from people who obviously have a huge problem with what I have written ... not a single one of them have been able to list a single example of what I've written that would justify their off the wall charges (hating Los Osos, liar, bully, etc.). When asked, the retreat to a canard like typical bullies do.


Face it guys, you're doing this for some reason. If it's to annoy me, it's not working. If it's to convince the sewer fundamentalists on your side to mistrust me, there is no need, they already have written me off. If your goal is to convince the middle of the road person, you're approach will be far more effective if you are more polite in your choice of words and if you are able to provide examples for all the horrible things you claim that I have done.


Politeness and honest discussion ... give it a try.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Sorry to disagree with you, OsosChange, but look at the County "Los Osos Water Purveyers" map in their maps section of the LOWWP website. It, along with all the other maps I've seen shows Monarch Grove being inside the PZ.

Perhaps you are confused or your question confused the staff because Monarch has a Prohibition Zone exception (i.e. we're inside the PZ but homes could be built anyways) because we've got the treatment plant. If the treatment plant hadn't been put in, there would be no homes because of the Prohibition.

So ... is that really deception? I would encourage everyone interested in OsosChange's claims to look at the map I refer to (maybe the link will work but maybe not ... http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/AssetFactory.aspx?did=13686) and see for yourself whether Monarch is in the PZ or not.

I've seen similar maps before as well, showing the same thing.

So, it would appear that you need to get a clarification on this matter because the map's on my side in this argument.



Lastly, as a side note ... this is really getting silly. Suppose that you are right and suppose that I was mistaken because of maps like the one I refer to ... does it really matter?

On one hand, the key point that some (like you and GetReal) would raise is that if I'm not under the same legal threat as folks inside the bulk of the PZ, I shouldn't suggest that I am. Fine. I didn't. No intentional deception here. If you chose to misread my PZ residence as a claim to greater authority when I write it is not what I said and you shouldn't get all bent out of shape because of how you chose to read my words. Hold me accountable for what I do write, not for how you choose to (mis)read it.

Osos Change said...

Interesting map, Steve.

Why does this map have your neighborhood as a Prohibition Zone exception?

Let's go look at the map you provided again because that same map uses the same data from November 2006.

Underneath the S&T Water Purveyor, there's an urban service line, which serves as the border between the Prohibition Zone and the PZ exception -- and do you know where that border lies? Right on Monarch Ln.

Zoom in on the PDF of that map by 200% and look closely at your neighborhood. Underneath the Urban Service marking is a thinner, brownish-red line that designates Prohibition Zone Exceptions.

So yes, you're within the Prohibition Zone area per se, but you are exempt from liability because you're on your own system. You and your neighbors south of Monarch Ln. are exempt. Thus it concludes that you are full of shit. You keep saying, "... but I am in the PZ!" and expect others to believe that nobody will even bother to look up the specifics.

Pathetic. You really should retract your original claim that you were assessed for the recent 218 assessment because you were not.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

My gosh you're an insistent goof.

Okay, to make it clear to one and all, I live in the PZ but in a PZ exception area because I live in Monarch Grove, an area which has an exception because we already have a wastewater plant.

If you wanna dig up a map or document that defines my are as not being in the PZ, I will make a correction if necessary ... but until then it seems that the map I've produced makes it clear that your claim that I am not in the PZ was wrong.

As to Pathetic: I did not make a claim that I was assessed in the recent County 218 assessment vote. As I've mentioned several times already (perhaps you weren't reading those days), my neighborhood will participate later in that process ... our "assessed value" was zero, if you will.

You may feel that you're trying to nail me here in some sort of lie, but it appears that the real issue is that there's been a misunderstanding.

Piper said...

Shark, At the last LOCAC meeting it was revealed that your Monarch Grove sewer is failing after only 10 years in operation. You may be paying more sooner than you think.

Mike said...

....do any of you really believe a STEP system will be 100% leak proof and never fail...????

....aren't you really saying that what we have in the ground now is just perfect and besides, all the pollution is coming from CMC, birds and cows, not from Los Osos...

Piper said...

Morning SewerToons,

And I said I was going to quit this blogging thing, but I do very much appreciate your questions.

Re; Cost
There are many affordable options out there so going with one that is more than 2% over the median income is unnecessary and unsustainable.

Contractor's estimates are legitimate ways to get an idea of what a system might cost. Of course it won't be an exact amount but it has to be close else the contractor's not worth his weight in salt.

Did you know that if you have a re-use element then you have a better chance for an SRF loan. Also, there are new federal grants available if the project is sustainable. These (as far as I know) have not been explored by the County.

If Obama is elected, he has promised funding for public works project. Lets face it, this project benefits everyone, not just the PZ. We are cleaning up State's waters.

The re-use element has to be included to make this project work. The County's process has been flawed from the get go and that has sparked much of our frustration.

As you said before, lets wait for the EIR. Within the CEQA process, it states that if the lead agency does not properly look at all reasonable options then, as citizens, we have a duty to challenge it.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Piper,

Perhaps you misheard or perhaps someone misspoke. The system is not failing nor is the sewer. One (rather expensive) part needs to be replaced. The replacement (parts and labor and all) will probably be about $80k.

Nope, I know all about it.

Even so, you do raise a good issue. Most of the folks in Monarch would like to tie into the Community system once it is online.

That being the case, we view ourselves as largely in the same boat as others in the PZ. We want the best system for the cheapest cost. So ... all of a sudden ... any of the "gotcha" factor of my address seems to disappear. People can't reasonably say "well, you shouldn't be allowed to voice your opinion because you won't be paying anything" because I'll be paying exactly the same as folks in Vista de Oro and Bayridge.

Piper said...

Mike,
STEP and gravity are not the only options. Please get off of the absolutes like "never" and "perfect". Try to be reasonable and open minded and you will be amazed at what you will find. But ultimately, STEP is much less detrimental than gravity in a multitude of ways. Perhaps you could read the document on STEP which is posted on the County's web site for more information. It is short and well foot noted.

Piper said...

FYI
The Los Osos Sustainability Group wrote a document defining sustainability. It is posted on the County's web site, along with Dr. Fullwood's paper on STEP. Both documents are supported by a number of prominent organizations. Please check them out. Thank You :)

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE: I know I posted this before in regards to leaky pipe.(I didn't find it on the County's website, but it is still easy to read.)

The allowable leakage in the test section shall not exceed 500 gallons
per mile, per 24 hours, per inch diameter of pipe tested at the fivefoot
test head.

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/AssetFactory.aspx?did=9362

H. Depth. The normal design depth of a sanitary sewer system shall be such
as to obtain a cover of 36 inches above the top of pipe for the house service
lateral at the property line.
I. Size. The normal minimum sewer main size shall be eight (8) inches inside
diameter.

H.& I. Do not provide a standard for STEP/STAG...Hmmm.

Laying Pipe. Pipe shall be laid in accordance with the manufacturer’s
specifications. All PVC pipe and fittings for underground gravity sewers
shall be installed in accordance with the requirements of ASTM Standard
D2321 (as amended to date), Recommended Practice for Installation of
Flexible Thermoplastic Sewer Pipe. The following sequence shall be used:

There are no "Man Holes" in any STEP/STAG I am framiliar with.
Hydrogen Sulfide gases being generated in sewerage eat up concrete.

Yeap Looks like the only technology the county wanted to acknowledge in October 2007, when they released this PIS, "was" gravity.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

I do have to agree with Piper about absolutes and limiting the discussion.

As a wise individual in this discussion (a long time back, I forget the moniker they used) once wrote ... there is no perfect system. They all have benefits and drawbacks relative to each other and in our particular situation. Once we understand the benefits and drawbacks of each we can make an informed choice and ... reasonable people will likely disagree about what is best because each may have different perceptions of what they value most.

Some will value cost above all else and others whether the system is environmentally friendly and still others whether the system will recharge the aquifer with the greatest efficiency.

Watershed Mark said...

One more thing: After the pipe is tested and corrected if necessary, it is buried in the shifting sands.
The same sand that Ripley/Orenco won't use Oreco's Fiberglass tank in, because it will float.

Who can say how much raw seweage, aquifer or ocean waters will infiltrate or exfiltrate.

I suppose a study will be in order someday.

When a leak occurs with a STEP/STAG conveyance system, it will be repaired as soon as it is discovered.

Poor Morro Bay is still waiting to fix the leaks they have known aboutfor quite some time now.

Piper said...

Mike,

Since you brought up "what we already have in the ground", are you aware that our septics provide primary treatment, but what leaks out of gravity pipes is raw sewage? Also, the last field trip the TAC went on looked a facility which was basically a giant sand mound. Guess what, my property sits on a 65 foot sand mound and I'll bet your house is on an even bigger one. Again, the first thing this project should accomplish is to do not harm. Think about it.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Piper is right yet again ... but please remember that it is nitrates we are most concerned with and septics don't denitrify. The total rate of leakage is what would matter.

Piper said...

Shark Inlet,

A truly sustainable system will balance the economy, society and the environment. It will be a clear winner because EVERYONE WILL WIN. That is the whole purpose of creating a sustainable system. That is the definition. It is a no brainer if the process of selection is set up properly. It does not appear that the County has done this. The process is flawed so the end result will be flawed. Simple as that. If you put bad information into a computer or calculator, you get the wrong answer coming out. Make sense?

Osos Change said...

Steve,

You lied by omission and you're going to have to read what I'm writing sometime because I did that you're in the Prohibition Zone area per se, but you are the exception.

The reason I'm harping about this is due to the fact that you said in August that yes, you were recently assessed. According to County records, the RWQCB and the maps you provided, your claims were rendered invalid.

Period, end of discussion.

Piper said...

Shark,

True, it is the nitrate level the RWQCB is harping on, but there are some real gnarly things in raw sewage that incubate in BIG pipes that we should be concerned about. This is the perfect environment for viruses to mutate. As Water Shed Mark has pointed out, the total rate of leakage from big pipes is pretty alarming. It is a major concern.

Sewertoons said...

Piper,

You seem to forget about the Water Board. What they have to say about what we put into the ground is critical. So far they have been pretty strong against devices like the Wrecklamator. So other than step or gravity, what is it that you are proposing? We already know omposting toilets and urine sequestering are not options.

Maybe you can answer this one, too - if we go step, the tanks must be leakproof - now that has been made pretty clear. Concrete tanks are not leakproof. Is there another option than fiberglass?

I'm not sure where you are going with the sand mound thing. I was out of town and unable to make that trip and the photos provided didn't show a sand mound. Yes, some of us live on hills, but a lot of us don't.

PS - I have read the sustainability document. Dr. Mary's degree is in what? I seem to remember it was in Therapy of some sort?

Sewertoons said...

Piper,

Don't you think "A truly sustainable system will balance the economy, society and the environment" is just a little overboard? We have more problems in the society and economy than what a sewer will fix!

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Osos Change,

You lied (perhaps by ignorance) by saying that I did not live in the PZ.

According to both maps referenced in this discussion ... one provided by me and one provided by you ... I do live there. It is only now that you are trying to wiggle out of your error by saying something like "well, the PZ exception zone is different". Face it, you made an error.

You can say that I omitted some information. I did. You may view that as a lie of omission but my intention was not to mislead anyone, so I'll disagree with you there. But ... just so that we know where you are really coming from, would you let us know if you live in the PZ ... because after all, if you don't, we know that you're playing with the financial well being of those who do live there. If living in or out of the PZ really is important, you need to come clean and tell us. Avoiding the question is not appropriate considering the stink you're raising about my place of residence.


On the other hand, lets talk about your claim that I don't live in the PZ. Saying something which is factually incorrect like, for example, "the sky is green" or "2+2=5" or "you don't live in the PZ" just might be a lie ... depending on whether you knew the statement to be wrong when you made it.

So, did you know about the intricacies of the PZ and PZ exception when you wrote that I lived in the PZ (in which case you lied) or were you unaware (in which case you spoke in ignorance)?


I also did not ... in August or anytime ... say that I was assessed in the recent 218. You've not found any quotes from me that say this or else you would have trotted them out.

Period. End of discussion.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Piper,

Yes, if the issue were just nitrates we would have to compare leakage rates for both types of systems.

Myself ... I am happy with STEP as long as it doesn't cost considerably more in the long run or leak any more than gravity ... for exactly the reasons you mention. Also, the pre-treatment in the septic systems is great for reducing sludge.

Sewertoons said...

I'd be curious to know the leakage rate in the new type of pipe used in gravity collection these days. Comparing leakage in gravity pipes that are old, poorly maintained, or made out of clay is not a fair comparison with plastic step pipes that have only been around for 25 years.

Piper said...

Sewertoons,

Forget the wrecklamator.

Mary is highly educated, hence doctorate, and one heck of a researcher.

Sand mound example was more to make the point that County process is not very focused. The other site they visited that day doesn't produce end product that will meet health standards set for 2010...

Lake Havisu (sp?) just went through putting in a conventional system. It leaks sewage going to the plant and water returning from it. Just a huge nightmare environmentally and economically

Where are the County cost estimates for sealed gravity pipes? Where is the tech memo on gravity? Did I miss it?

Most importantly, please take a look at what I wrote at 10:26, about 6 comments above. It is completely do-able! We are not re inventing the wheel, just pulling our heads out of the sand.

Piper said...

Thanks Shark for your comments and Toons for your questions but now I am seriously over and out! Got to get back to my real life. See you around town and hopefully at a few meetings!

Watershed Mark said...

The allowable leakage in the test section shall not exceed 500 gallons
per mile, per 24 hours, per inch diameter of pipe tested at the fivefoot
test head.

http://www.slocounty.ca.gov/AssetFactory.aspx?did=9362

499 gpd per diameter inch per mile.
The bigger the pipe tht mpre leakage is allowed.

Of course this is before it is buried and compacted. Damage and leakage caused by any movement from earthquakes and other natural compaction or eroision that will be caused from the water traveling along the clay lenses to the manmade trench which disturbed the natural geology, will be extra and not measured. :)

Mike said...

..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...and just for grins, how about using a tank similar to the Reclamator since yo are familiar with that system...??? Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...??? How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...??? So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...

Sewertoons said...

Well, I wish Piper had answered specifically what it is she thinks we need here. If not the Wrecklamator, what? Step is over that 2% mark, too.

Doctorate in what? I don't just trust just anyone with a Ph.D. Having one doesn't necessarily make you a good researcher.

Osos Change said...

Steve,

Take your head out of your ass.

For as long as Ann Calhoun has had your blog, not once did you say you lived in the exception of the Prohibition Zone. For as long as you've been a member of the SanLuisObispo.com discussion boards, not once did you say you lived in the exception of the Prohibition Zone.

In mid-August 2008 you said, "I was assessed for the recent 218 vote," and you followed up on your statement saying that you lived in the Prohibition Zone. Excuse me? I never said you were out of the area, but you never were liable for a CDO imposed by the RWQCB. On SanLuisObispo.com, you told people that you were. That's a lie.

And you, sir, have the nerve to say I'm lying?

I feel that you're a sociopath and if you lie at this magnitude for all these years, I feel there are grounds for your children to be taken to foster care. Nobody's children should be subject to a father who spends hours blogging obsessively, lying to the point of possible litigation for defamation against several individuals of Los Osos, has obvious mental health and reading comprehension issues.

Get off the blog. I'm done with you.

Sewertoons said...

I hope someone from the "Piper side" will answer this.

You seem to state:
• You don't believe the County process is fair
• You have some device that you prefer other than step to clean up the mess we are making, but step will do if push comes to shove
• To charge more than 2% of an income for clean-up is wrong
• You want it to be sustainable

Q-1 -- Is the County process going too fast, is it missing other options? Should we delay to find the "perfect" and cheap device? Would the County process be more fair if it spent millions of Los Osos' money to seek out and test every device on the market? (Delay costs the environment of Los Osos one million gallons of pollutants per day, how do you environmentalists justify that?)

Q-2 -- Will there be no cleanup then, if making it affordable is mandatory (but it has NEVER been affordable by some - how is now any different, well, I suppose thanks to the delay, it IS MORE EXPENSIVE)?

Q-3 --Since thousands of gallons of water are leaking out into the bay from the overloaded upper aquifer, how does an on-lot device return water to the LOWER aquifer which is the one we drink from? Our on-lot devices are over-doing it right now -- right into the UPPER AQUIFER. How is this "sustainability?"

The arguments may be dressed up slightly differently, but they all point to no-sewer in my mind.

Sewertoons said...

"Sustainability group," please address this:

You claim to want sustainability - what do you think Tri-W was all about? Getting water back into the lower aquifer.

It would have resulted in giving us tertiary treated, Title 22 compliant water, that was body-contact ready. It has been the only PERMITTED project that did this.

Show me what you have that is better, cheaper, faster, OK?

You guys are right back where the Solutions Group WAS in 1998 when they stopped that County project.

Isn't Noah Smucker using in his campaign the plug for tertiary treated water for Morro Bay? Off his website, "The prospect of saving 1.1 million gallons a day that is currently dumped offshore would take a major step toward local self-sufficiency of our water resources. The process of restoring the quality of our local drinking water wells is an immediate priority."

Mike said...

Gee Osos Change... please stay on this blog... Your obsession with destroying Steve has become somewhat of a fun diversion from the theft of funds from the community by the CSD...

There are a "few" questions coming up about your "truthfulness"... but when the facts are all in, you will know... as well as anyone else still listening to your sick diatribe and outright threatening demeaner....

Ann herself should count herself lucky that you and Howie and getrealosos (if you are all not the same blogger)didn't single her out for your insane obsession... You really are unbalanced and need professional help before that stroke incapacitates you further...

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

OsosChange,

Unless your name is Ann, you don't have the authority to order me around here.

On the issue of whether I live in the PZ or not ... you seem to be saying that your factual misstatement is no big deal at all, but my not providing you what you consider full information. It is really odd when people who make mistakes and refuse to correct them or apologize then complain bitterly when they feel let down by others.

As for your claim that I said I was assessed, I don't believe I wrote that. If you can provide a date and time or a link, I can see what you are referring to and make a correction and apology if necessary. If you don't provide me that basic info, I'm gonna stick with my memory and not bother. As a group we'll also know that you are making claims that you don't back up. Do you really wanna have people know you as someone who can't back up what he or she writes?

Same goes for your CDO claim. Put up or pound sand.

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...

MIKE: Great questions all, REALLY! You have just proven why the TAC reports are flawed. I wonder how the lack of answers to your questions will stack up in an EIR.
I LOVE LO!!

..and just for grins, how about using a tank similar to the Reclamator since yo are familiar with that system...???
Tom Murphy used a fiberglass tank which is subject/prone to floating in these sands…

Mike said...

...an interesting aside to the floating problem... when a fiberglass or metal tank or pipe is underground, as long as it is full of liquid...such as mostly water based liquid, there is a neutral bouyancy and does not float to the top... now if it is empty, flotation is posible...maybe you have seen empty underground gasoline storage tanks rise up through soil after a heavy period of rain...same thing can happen to an empty swimming pool... actually even concrete septic tanks and coffins will float in areas of high water table... I've actually filled new underground storage tanks as soon as possible after placing in the excavation... even half full is generally enough, even with lower density fluids... So, the moral of the story is, keep the pipe or tank full and listen to experienced engineers, not fly-by-nite snakeoil salespersons...

Sewertoons said...

I wonder how a fiberglass tank works - or a septic system at all, really, on vacation homes? Let's say they are used 2 months out of the year. The rest of the year they are empty. Then a big rainstorm hits - hey -let's put our imaginary house down in the flood zone in Baywood. Can you imagine what happens to the septic tank? What happens to the bugs in the tank if they get no "food?"

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...

MIKE: Great questions all, REALLY! You have just proven why the TAC reports are flawed. I wonder how the lack of answers to your questions will stack up in an EIR.
I LOVE LO!!

Thanks MIKE!

Watershed Mark said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Watershed Mark said...

MIKE said:
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...

I could not have said it better myself, MIKE. Utterly PRICLESS!!

You ARE keeping a sharp eye on the county's consulting engineer's study of sewerage.

To understand the nature of the people one must be a prince, and to understand the nature of the prince, one must be of the people.
The more sand that has escaped from the hourglass of our life, the clearer we should see through it.
Niccolo Machiavelli

Where's Maria, Lynette?

Watershed Mark said...

M a r s h a l l Ochylski is an attorney and a resident of Los Osos for 30 years. He said he’s running because the ability for the community to have local control is in jeopardy. “I will bring a fresh outlook,” he said, “needed expertise and a commitment to service on behalf of the community’s best interests.”
He is fully supportive of the county’s being in charge of the sewer project. “Based on my personal experience from serving on the Technical Advisory Committee of the Los Osos Wastewater Project,” he explained, “I believe that the county has been very responsive to the community’s concerns in the process. It is critical that the community continues working with the county and all of the involved agencies to assure that the conditions set for the con¬struction and operation of the sewer treat¬ment system are affordable and sustainable.”

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...

Watershed Mark said...

Maria Kelly lists her profession as community volun¬teer, and is mem¬ber of the CSD’s Water Ops Finance Advisory Committee. “I have 15 years of civic experience working for and sitting on various types of boards,” she said. “I real¬ly enjoy the camaraderie, I am not afraid of conflict and I have the ability to set differ¬ences aside for the good of the group. My only agenda is to offer my time to support the resolution of the bankruptcy as it is the only process with which to address and potentially decrease our debt liabilities.” She fully supports the county’s efforts to build a sewer. “I do not support the CSD getting involved in a project for many rea¬sons,”…
.
Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...

Mike said...

Please don't try to spin my thoughts... I do know quite a bit about pipeline and major facility construction... I even have the experience to plan and manage major industrial construction projects...

What I and several others would like to see is some honest cost figures regarding the alternative systems... We know the gravity system will work... We even have a pretty fair idea of cost, but obtaining true costs of Step, including the Reclamator, has been less than accurate...

We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over... It is too bad that the alternative systems folks seem to be trying to hide those figures... We may see GE and Seimens systems and costs, but it is doubtful that small systems companies will be able to provide realistic figures which can be backed with finanacial and engineering data...

Watershed Mark said...

Karen Venditti has lived in Los Osos 11 years. She said the two biggest issues facing the district are maintaining the quality of public safety and emergency services, and ensuring a safe, affordable drinking water supply.
“Currently,” Venditti told The Bay News, “our reserves for fire and safety are threatened by the hemorrhage of funds needed to address the barrage of lawsuits, some of which appear to be vindictive and intentionally destructive. The resulting fiscal instability threatens the future quality of fire and emergency services, and saps the energies of our directors that would be much better spent leading the community to a sustainable future.”
Venditti has 25 years experience in the banking industry. She said the district needs to constantly monitor its spending and find ways to do things more efficiently with­out allowing the services it provides to erode.
With regard to water, the district and other purveyors need to continue to work together to protect the basin. “The alter­native — imported water from the State or Nacimiento — is not only expensive, it’s also unreliable and probably unavail­able,” said Venditti. “Through public education and district ordinances we can take measures to use stormwater run-off to recharge the aquifer and harvest rain water to use on our land­scaping. We can reduce water usage through conservation practices, both individual and community-wide projects, and ensure that water rates reward those who conserve.
“And we can work with the county on the wastewater project to ensure that the treated effluent is recycled to recharge the basin.”
A member of the county’s Technical Advisory Committee for the sewer project, she said she supports the county process. “I will strongly advocate for the county to develop a sustainable sewer project — considering not just environ­mental concerns, but economic and social implications, as well,” she said. “We need a sewer that allows us to reuse the treated wastewater in such a way that it contributes to a bal­anced groundwater basin. We want a collection system that is the least expensive and minimizes impacts to homeowners, streets, soil, and archeological resources. We want to use clean, green energy to power the system, and minimize the energy it takes to pump the collection system, run the treat­ment plant, and dispose of solid waste.”

Courage is knowing what not to fear.
Plato

Mike said...

Unfortunately Karen is part of the reason for the current TW suit... it was not responsible to pay lawyers instead of providing a real Plan... Karen is much too close to Lisa to be an unbiased voice in correcting the financial mismangement of the past 3 years.... There is NO SEWER in the CSD's responsibiliy...!!!! Resolve the Bankruptcy and get back to managing the Fire, Water and Trash services... Vote for Maria and Marshall to return the CSD to managing those 3 services without any responsibility or further discussion of the County sewer...

Watershed Mark said...

Mike Said:
Please don't try to spin my thoughts…
YOUR THINKING THAT MY CUTTING AND PASTING YOUR WORDS IS SPIN, IS SPIN.

What I and several others would like to see is some honest cost figures regarding the alternative systems... We know the gravity system will work... We even have a pretty fair idea of cost, but obtaining true costs of Step, including the Reclamator, has been less than accurate...

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF? Got Linkage? (Are you a consultant to the county or their consulting engineer?)

We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over... It is too bad that the alternative systems folks seem to be trying to hide those figures…

TALK ABOUT SPIN!

MIKE, the county’s consulting engineer’s study began in early/mid 2007, the TAC reports have been submitted, certified and stamped by the county and the EIR is due out at any time (or has it been delayed?) and you “claim”: We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over...

I guess we will just have to wait and see. BLAWHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAHHHAAAA…
BTW- Do you have any linkage where we can read what you are claiming or are you just puffing the talking points, again?

Sewertoons said...

mark, you don't seemed to have answered Shark's question yet - here it is again, in case you forgot it:

How would a "no" vote on the 218 have done more for allowing the WWTF to be put out of town?

Feel free to answer on your next post.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE said:
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...
We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over...

Talk about spin.

Osos Change said...

Unfortunately Maria is part of the reason for the current TW suit... it was not responsible to pay lawyers instead of providing a real Plan... Maria is much too close to Richard and Gordon to be an unbiased voice in correcting the financial mismangement of the past 3 years.... There is NO SEWER in the CSD's responsibiliy...!!!! Resolve the Bankruptcy and get back to managing the Fire, Water and Trash services... Vote for Karen Venditti to return the CSD to managing those 3 services without any responsibility or further discussion of the County sewer...

Sewertoons said...

Vote for Karen Venditti to continue the CSD's connection to Gail. If that's what you like that is. She's much too close to Gail to be an unbiased voice in correcting the financial mismangement of the past 3 years - which was brought to you by Lisa too, don't forget.

The CSD's budgets were balanced until October, 2005.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

I'm still wondering about Karen's involvement in doc-u-gate.

Does she deny moving documents out of the LOCSD office?

If not, why hasn't she explained why she thought that moving documents after hours was something reasonable.

Any person running for office should at least comment on such matters ... after all, she was listed in a sworn deposition as participating in this activity that Lisa told us actually happened.

Watershed Mark said...

Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???

Why no wonder Steve Rein?

Sewertoons said...

Gonna answer Shark's question mark? We're still waiting!

Mike said...

Mark...the more you blow smoke, the more I wonder if you ever knew what you were spouting about the Reclamator... Is there any recognized data on the STEP systems...???

What are the national tests used to assess the STEP capabilities...??? Please don't beat around the bush any longer...either you know or you don't... It is all rght to say you don't know....

Jane said...

Sewertoons:
You keep asking Piper what system she is supporting. You seem to miss the point of the process is to determine the best system. Now, as in the past, we are involved in a process where the ending point was decided at the beginning, and the process is being used to justify the conclusion. Maybe Piper’s group is actually trying to conduct a fair comparison and see what floats to the top.

Paavo, Briggs, and TW are working very hard to manipulate the results toward gravity, just as in the past. Why? The benefits they desire must be personal, because cost, environment, and sustainability all seem to fall on the STEP side of the scale when fairly compared.

You also mention that you worry about STEP operation on your vacation home with the limited use. I worry more insect infestations with a gravity system. I have never had a cockroach here in LO. With a gravity cockroach highway, would I have to dowse my home in pesticides? Those little guys are tough, and anything that kills them is going to have a negative impact on us humans.

M said...

Great post Jane. I think it is spot on. If gravity is a cockroach highway, then my mind is made up. Step it is.

Sewertoons keeps bringing up "no sewer". I guess if you're not for gravity Tri-W then you are "no sewer".

After my last water bill, which during the period I did quite a bit of irrigation watering, I was shocked at the dollar amount. So I started monitoring my water use. How much for showers, how much for laundry, how much for lawn sprinklers and how much for my drip systems. With lo-flow toilets, I didn't bother to monitor them, because I know how much each flush is and how many flushes a day we typically use. My conclusion is that when you people use the line that we are flushing hundreds of thousands of gallons of raw sewage into the Bay each day is full of what you are accusing us of polluting with. If we are polluting so much, and apparently claimed we were when 8313 came down, then why were 1000 or so more homes allowed to be built?

Piper comes on the blog for the first time, and what do you do? You jump on her about her spelling. How rude is that?

sharkinlet keeps asking about how howie found him on Youtube. It seems obvious to me that if you were going to do a google search on somebody to find out information about them, you would be savvy enough to just on a whim do a search at Youtube. I mean anybody puts anything on Youtube.
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

We really don't know enough about the aquifires or the septic tanks... We need to continue this community discussion another 30 or so years while we drill test wells in every intersection and on every parcel to make an honest map of wheter we really are poluting...

It's obvious we know far more than the County or the State, so we should stick to our septics and prove all those critics wrong... Alon is right, we do have great water and don't need to do anything with the water... What we need to do now is prevent any more houses to be built in Los Osos...ever...!!!!

We need more moral, honest, civic minded, financial leaders like Lisa and Gail and Julie... We need howie and his sister getrealosos and osos change to head our police department and rat out those ultra conservatives who actually try to use logic and scientific studies...Yes we need more cooler heads like Kieth and Al to forge our destiny toward the independent state of Los Osos... We don't need all you nay sayers telling us about nitrates and salt intrusions, there are no scientific studies to back any of that crap... We have pure water and besides, if there really are any meds in that water, we all probably need to be taking them anyhow.... God Bless Lost Osos's....!!!!!

GetRealOsos said...

Mike (I mean, Crapkiller),

Yes, it might be nice for the County (and Los Osos) to use REAL experts rather than sole sourcing with firms such as Cleath & Assoc. and Corollo.

Cleath does ALL the studies around these parts, and if you read them, they are bogus. One report actually stated that water ran UP HILL! And this is who the County uses exclusively??? (It's almost like they'll write up any report or study however the County wants them to.)

Then, take Corollo, they've ONLY done gravity systems. That's nice of the County to choose them!

But, of course, you want us to listen to the State and County...because they know more??? You want us to believe that they know more than we do, and the real experts do??? ... I guess you mean like when Paavo told the RWQCB that the Tri-W site would act like a "sponge"???!!!!

And, yes, it would be nice to test some wells today, both inside and outside the PZ to know exactly where we are before putting in "your" gravity system, the most expensive system that Los Osos money can buy!!! A system that will ruin the environment, give the county our water, ruin our precious water basin (we have like no other place) -- yes, ruin everything, AND tax people out of town to boot!!!

Lovely, Crapkiller, you and Steven Rein are so much "Birds of a feather, flock together!" Let's include Maria and Joe Sparks in the group. Your new motto should be, "get rid of our trees in Los Osos, it's too green, go for gravity!!!" Thanks Richard and Maria and Gordon and Steven Rein!!!

That's how you define "going green" ... EVERYONE RIGHT AND GOOD AND SPECIAL ABOUT LOS OSOS ... going, going gone!

Jane,

Great post!!!

Sewertoons said...

jane said:
"You seem to miss the point of the process is to determine the best system."

No, that's not what I said. I fully support the COUNTY process. Not some off-grid process by those unhappy with the County process. Why on earth would I trust types like Tom Murphy who try to circumvent the laws? Why would I trust a group that trusted him to be better able to discern frauds than they were the last time? Who are the experts on their - "team" or whatever you call it.

I asked Piper as to which system she wants, as in her once proclaiming the Wrecklamator as savior, and then pushing ONLY step - with some reservations even there (certainly not gravity!), she seems to have her mind made up that it will not be gravity no matter what is said about it at the end.

Interesting how Chuck C. reported from his info on the yet to be released NWRI report that we could go either step or gravity.

Maybe you can explain how a cockroach would surface in my house due to a gravity system? Swim up from the toilet trap? Funny - my house in LA where I lived for 17 years was hooked up to LA's gravity system. Never saw a cockroach. Please explain, as LA crawls with cockroaches.

I did not jump on Piper's spelling, BTW.

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons,

You are now the "twist queen" -- nobody EVER said Tom Murphy was any expert.

Why don't you try Dr. T, and his people? Or some (real) engineers? Dr. T said gravity pipes weren't appropriate for the hills and sand here!!!!

Paavo didn't want to hear that, and of course, our "expert Paavo" said the Tri-W site would act as a sponge!!

Dr. T and his experts aren't good enough for ya??

After all, it was Dr. T (who writes the books) that told Paavo that gravity wasn't right for Los Osos from the very beginning of the County "process".

You know better, now you have to spin -- SPIN IS ALL YOU'VE HAVE!!!

Cal Poly biscuits for you????

County biscuits for you and Maria???

WOOF!!!

P.S.
I'd bet some major money that the test results outside the PZ wouldn't be any better than inside...

Mike said...

Hey getrealosos, where do you get your materiel...??? Oh yes, that's right, you just make up what ever lie you think "appropriate"... always have, always will... You must be a disciple of Racano...

It's amazing you can tie your shoes without mommy's Gail's help...

You still have some very basic "facts" 100% wrong in the rumors you still are spreading.... You do own some very good folks a major appology... until then, you are simply a liar and a fraud...!!!!!!!

M said...

Sorry sewertoons, in one of my blants I spoke of you guys jumping on Piper for her mis-spelling. I did'nt mean to imply that you directly did, but that one of you did.

Sincerely,M

M said...

There you go." Hey getrealosos, where do you get your materiel...??? A post from mike. It was either sewertoons, sharkinlet or mike that made reference to pipers spelling. One of you want to fess up to it?
Sincerely, M

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

M commented "sharkinlet keeps asking about how howie found him on Youtube. It seems obvious to me that if you were going to do a google search on somebody to find out information about them, you would be savvy enough to just on a whim do a search at Youtube. I mean anybody puts anything on Youtube."

If that is the case, why has he refused to simply say this? Typically people who do reasonable things aren't reluctant to explain how they happened into an unusual situation.

M said...

shark, maybe it seems obvious? maybe no explanation is required.

Mike said...

...if it's so "obvious", then you try it and report how easy it was for you to find...

GetRealOsos said...

Mike/Crapkiller,

What lie or rumor?

Are you saying that Dr. T didn't tell Paavo that the hills and sand here aren't appropriate for gravity???

Are you saying that Paavo didn't say the Tri-W site would act as a sponge?

I'll wait for your answer.

Typical of you to keep saying that I lie and say it often enough until people start to believe it!

Why don't you prove it?

P.S. It was you who made the remark about Piper's spelling. Yet, it is YOU, who spell Keith Kieth.
Again, you people constantly accuse people of doing what you yourself do. Typical.

Montgomery Watson Harza biscuits for YOU!!!

M said...

Okay, is it the trip in Colorado?
Sincerely, M

Osos Change said...

People, it's all about using your brain. The power of Google can find any person if that person isn't careful enough. It appears to me Steve Rein has been uncovered by his own carelessness and only he's to blame.

Sewertoons said...

getreal says:

"-- nobody EVER said Tom Murphy was any expert."

Why then, would they push his product? What the heck was THAT all about? Trying to get out of ANY community sewer is what it sounds like to me.

You apparently did not hear Chuck's reporting of what he heard out of the NWRI report, on the September 18th CSD meeting. Or perhaps you didn't care to comment on my comment. Either step or gravity would be OK. That's what Chuck reported. Check out the DVD, hear it for yourself.

Now, how about some crow biscuits for you?

Piper said...

It was Billy Dunne who said I can't spell (then "he" went away) and that comment is probably the only fact that has been stated by their side.

Lynette, for cryin out loud, let go of your "docu-gate" crap. You brought up a pack of "mis information" 2 CSD meetings ago and it was corrected. (Actually Lisa gave you a pretty good verbal spanking- Maria got one too, because her behavior was also awful- zero decorum and you all complain about us- very hypocritical).

Too bad Chuck had AGP stop the cameras. Joe had such a fit he started throwing things around and nearly stormed out of the room. Now your bringing it up again? Karen wasn't even there, at "docu-gate", and it all revolved around the ACLU hearings.

Please stop spreading lies. Marshall should take that advice too. His comment re: last two BOS meeting and the sheriff being there was corrected by Dave Doogan who attends virtually all meetings.

And then there is Maria... At that same CSD meeting, she got up after me and said she didn't know how we could say that she was supported by TPW and Pandora because she had not released her financials and that we were making it up. She herself stated that she co founded Community First, or whatever it is called , with Pandora and her WH2O is under Gordon's tax ID #.

"Leadership you can trust", you have got to be kidding me. "Stupidity you can count on" is more like it.

Oh Lynette, The Tri-W project was not sustainable. Please go back to the definition of sustainability and figure it out. Here's a hint, measure B and CMC.

And finally, Jane hit the nail on the head. She wrote, "We are involved in a process where the ending point was decided at the beginning, and the process is being used to justify the conclusion. Maybe Piper's group is actually trying to conduct a fair comparison and see what floats to the top."

I made this exact argument to Paavo and Mark Hutchinson a year ago. Paavo had nothing to say, Mark refered me back to the CEQA process. He said CEQA is not perfect but it is the best thing we have. CEQA states if the lead agency does not do a reasonable job then we as citizens have a duty to challenge it.

Mike said...

You keep going back to Measure B... Please explain just what it's status is today...???

ps... getrealosos is still a liar and a fraud... he has lied so many times about so many subjects, that he can't remember them all... and I do spell pretty well...but my typing can't keep up.... keep lying getrealosos....that's all you are...!!!!!

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

M,

The question that neither you nor Howie has addressed is why anyone would want want to search for me on youtube ... not whether, if one presumed I might have a youtube account, it is easy to find.

I also think that Mike's challenge was ... like mine ... to find my youtube site without using "youtube" in the google search.

The most common sense explanation (when you consider that Howie has also looked up lots of other things about my life) is that he was putting in quite a bit of time digging to see what he could find. In other words, the creepy guy. Other explanations are quite possible, but Howie's it just showed up on my screen when I searched for Steve explanation is pure crap and we all know it

By the way, I would highly recommend visiting area between Colorado Springs and Mesa Verde ... lots of very cool things to do and learn. Mesa Verde is really awesome.

Sewertoons said...

osos change, Shark isn't stating it was impossible for people to find him, just the large amount of time and effort it required to do so -

And for what purpose?

That's what I want to know. It sounds so personal. howie doesn't like Shark, fine. So what. Like I care that he doesn't like Shark. I think howie must be related to the Ezzos. If he is not, it really makes no sense, and frankly, I could give a rat's ass. Hasn't come even close to turning me away from my high opinion of Shark's abilities to pencil out the financial realities of stopping the project. But it did make me greatly increase my already low opinion of howie.

Osos Change said...

Here is the face of the idiot we all know as "shark inlet."

This guy has the best "Punch me in the face!" face I've ever seen.

Sewertoons said...

Piper, Lisa didn't give me a verbal spanking. What she did was try to cover up the unethical thing SHE DID by trying to put the blame onto Shark and me. Those were COPIES? Well, why didn't she state that when this first came up? She didn't and they weren't. She got caught and she didn't like it, so she revised history as she has done on more than one occasion.

She was incredibly egocentric to bring it up at all nit-picking as she did over WHICH document spelled out her unethical and illegal activities.

Karen WAS there, she helped Gail move the document boxes out into the trunks of cars that were then driven off the property. Do you mean there was ANOTHER incident like this? One I apparently don't know about. District documents are not to leave the District office. PERIOD.

Sewertoons said...

Piper, please define for me YOUR version of a sustainable project - a real one - like one that has actually been built and is up and running somewhere.

Please give me the qualifications of your group that is to give that fair comparison that jane speaks of.

Sewertoons said...

Post your photo osos change so we can give it a fair comparison to Sharks.

Sewertoons said...

Piper, candidates are required to do regular filings on the money they collect for their campaigns. If they haven't been released, then you do NOT know WHO has contributed. When you state that people are contributors, that means that they have put money into a campaign, so to state that Pandora or Gordon contributed is to say that you have seen the financial statements, which at that point you could not possibly have done. Does this make sense now?

Sewertoons said...

PS - Painting bears and building fences and holding water conservation events don't "contribute" to Maria's campaign. I'm not sure how you think they do, it's kind of a strange leap.

Sewertoons said...

Piper, you say, "CEQA states if the lead agency does not do a reasonable job then we as citizens have a duty to challenge it."

What are your criteria for a reasonable job?

Mike said...

C'mon piper... or are yo really just another name for howie...???

Please tell us what the wonderful Measure B has done...?? What is it's current status...???

Apparently you don't understand legal document storage and retention...or. like getrealosos, you are simply making up a rumor to cover your incompetence... But, if Lisa says she only moved "copies", would you mind giving us a rough number of how many "copies" were made....???

No, piper, there is a reasn Lisa is trying to divert attention from this issue...and Karen is right up to her eyeballs in the cover-up....

Mike said...

Hey getrealosos, this really is an easy game... amazing how much one can find out on the internet... even skyviews of an unpermitted trailer camp, Pecho Valley Road...Dan Deval might want to check out the sanitation there...

but there are some really nice addresses....

541 Manzanita
2582 Pecho Valley Road
1516 17th Street
541 Ramona Avenue

....we could go on, but the point should have been made...

Osos Change said...

Here's a picture of me, sewertoons.

Sincerely,
Casper the Not-so-Friendly Ghost

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE,
Show us the "national tests used to assess Gravity" that the county or it’s consulting engineers are using in support of their study.
Here are a few you can look at:

ABSTRACT
The contribution of sewer leakage to urban groundwater recharge remains poorly characterized. There has been a tendency to focus on estimating leakage from pipe network characteristics rather than its impact on the receiving environment. Indeed, pipeline leakage simulation models are frequently used to analyze sewage systems and optimize maintenance efforts. Here a mass balance approach employing groundwater geochemistry is presented to estimate sewer leakage rates; this is done using depth-specific groundwater quality measurements from multilevel monitoring piezometers, specially installed in the Sherwood Sandstone aquifer underlying Doncaster (UK). The results show that leakage rates from the foul sewage system are up to 10% of flow per annum (30–40% of urban recharge) and highlight the utility of groundwater quality monitoring (in particular depth-specific sampling) as an alternative means to assess sewage ingress to urban groundwater.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120126402/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
Abstract
Monitoring of carbamazepine concentrations in wastewater and groundwater enables us to identify and quantify sewer exfiltration. The antiepileptic drug carbamazepine is hardly removed in wastewater treatment plants and not or just slightly attenuated during bank infiltration and subsoil flow. Concentrations in wastewater are generally 1,000 times higher than the limit of quantification. In contrast to many other wastewater tracers carbamazepine is discharged to the environment only via domestic wastewater. The results from this study carried out in Linz, Austria indicate an average exfiltration rate of 1%, expressed as percentage of the dry weather flow that is lost to the groundwater on the city-wide scale. This rate is lower than sewage losses reported in most other studies which attempted to quantify exfiltration on the basis of groundwater pollution. However, it was also possible to identify one area with significantly higher sewage losses. This method seems to be very suitable for the verification of leakage models used to assess sewer exfiltration on a regional scale
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17437457
http://gov.state.ak.us/omb/09_omb/budget/DEC/Veto/2009proj46399.pdf
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V73-4NB2SDC 1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=af1e28dcf0013d0990619c2a0ab37f95

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...
We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over...

Sewertoons said...
Jane said:
"You seem to miss the point of the process is to determine the best system."

No, that's not what I said. I fully support the COUNTY process.

Retest the test wells LOCSD Board Members all (past present and aspiring, you too Maria) and then call www.basinwater.com or when LO/BP loses the aquifer, the county/state can study here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEWater and the taxpayers and ratepayers can pay for that also.

Watershed Mark said...

City battling sewer roaches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJWCyo5lviY&feature=user


Habitat
The place where cockroaches live and eat is called their habitat. Cockroaches may become pests in homes after being introduced in cartons, grocery bags and containers. In apartment complexes, cockroaches move via common plumbing fixtures connecting individual units.
http://www.oznet.ksu.edu/library/entml2/MF2765.pdf
American cockroach adults are 1 and 1/2 inches long and are reddish brown and have a yellowish margin on the body region behind the head. When disturbed, may run rapidly and adults may fly. Immature cockroaches resemble adults except that they are wingless.
American cockroaches generally live in moist areas, but can survive in dry areas if they have access to water. They prefer warm temperatures around 84 degrees Fahrenheit and do not tolerate cold temperatures. In residential areas, these cockroaches live in basements and sewers, and may move outdoors into yards during warm weather. They feed on a wide variety of plant and animal material.
http://www.generalx.com/roaches.html

And you call yourself "sewertoons"...sad.

Sewertoons said...

So why wasn't my house in LA infested with cockroaches? I was on a gravity sewer. I never saw one. Must have been because I didn't have a basement? I never had the house sprayed, even once. The housing development I lived in was built in 1948. Wouldn't that have given the roaches enough time to invade? Please explain.

Still waiting for you to answer Shark's question, mark. Having trouble thinking one up? Or is it that you don't have one?

Howie said...

Preacher Rein!

You quiver: "Why has he (me, Howie) refused to simply say this (how Howie, me, found him)? Typically people who do reasonable things aren't reluctant to explain how they happened into an unusual situation."

If you would simply LISTEN to M, who is so right, it might save you a lot of time and, possibly, a lot of money.

However, I understand how desperately you, Mike The Plumber and his lovely pipe wife Sewertoons want to know HOW I found your family gigglefest on YouTube within minutes ... ???

Now, I can be a very reasonable person, but morally and spiritually, I cannot give you what you want because it is YOU, Steve Rein a/k/a Shark Cutlet, that wants it ... To deny YOU, Little Stevie Blunder, that which you want, that which not knowing frustrates you to NO END, to say "NO!" to Preacher Rein and his hacker demands, is, I must admit, is my Greatest Pleasure!!!

Rein, I know how terribly you are suffering ...

Which is one huge reason why I don't want to tell you jack ...

Suffering is good for you. It builds character and teaches humility, qualities you sorely lack. Suffer a few more years of painful financial ruin and emotional anguish from the real fear of losing your home and maybe you'll be able to relate a little bit better to most of us flesh and blood homeowners and residents ... Oh forget it! You don't have a clue what Jane, M, Get Real, Steven and Piper and many others are talking about -- you don't have a lien on your home and you blog for the Recalled Board and Maria.

However, I am not without compassion, especially for the most broken among us, even though I don't brake for Dreamers crossing the street. I find it offensive talking to you even through a machine like this and I feel ill at the mere thought of being in your slimy presence, but I would consider giving you "Howie's Key to the Mystery of Internet Universe," which you covet for your own protection, if you would join me for dinner at my home away from home, Shawn's on Main Street. Chef Shawn knows what I like, just the way I like it. I tell you what you want to know ... You pick up the tab. I promise it won't be a "blank check" to spend as much as I want of your "hard-earned Cal Poly monopoly money.

Rein, the simplest answer I can give you as to why I don't want to tell you what you want to know SOOOO BADLY is because I am having WAY TOO MUCH FUN LAUGHING AT YOU TO GIVE IT UP!!!

P.S. Saw your photo posted above so I'll know who to look for at Shawn's.

Piper said...

What in the world are you people smoking? The stuff you all write would be funny if it weren't so sad.

One more time, now pay attention, Sustainability is a tri-metric approach. That means a sustainable project is one in which the environment, society and the economy all win.

Putting a conventional sewer in the middle of town, surrounded by schools, churches, park and library, not so good for society nor the bay.

And the CMC was fined, not only for spills, but for leaks to the gravity collection system and for CHEMICAL VIOLATIONS. Traditional treatment is not a sustainable option, for many reasons and I am repeating myself.

If you had attended any of the seminars put on in the past 6 months, you could come up with a half a dozen sustainable sewer senarios. I did my home work, you do yours. Try reading a little and stop blogging and you may learn something. Perhaps even open your ears to truly listen to what other people have to say.

If more than one of us has similiar ideas, which aren't yours, doesn't mean we are blogging under multiple names. I said from the beginning who I REALLY am and I don't write under any other names.

Regarding Maria and her affiliations,I don't care if Gordon and Pandora never give Maria a dime, the company you keep says a lot. Lets be real here.

Not only do roaches like traditional sewers but so do rats and who knows what other creatures may make it there homes if we destroy all of the existing LO habitat. Wrap your brains around this one. If we remove all of the water we currently return to the ground, most, if not all of the vegitation will die. Maybe all the creatures that once lived there can mutate and make the sewer their new home? What do you think?

Gotta go, my family says I can't blog anymore, cause its shriveling up my brain.

Mike said...

piper (an authority on waste water treatment systems) says... "Putting a conventional sewer in the middle of town, surrounded by schools, churches, park and library, not so good for society nor the bay."

I'm really wondering how the society of man-kind has existed all these years with conventional sewers in the middle of towns...Los Osos is truly blest with such deep thinkers...

By the way piper, you never answered the question regarding Measure B... what is it's current status...???

Are you pulling the typical "Move the or No Sewer" mirror out and deflecting the question because you are such a closed person that you can only listen to your own answers...

How has any modern city existed without a sewer...??? I guess Los Osos is neither a city or even a town...

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons,

You say, "you didn't care to comment on my comment. Either step or gravity would be OK. That's what Chuck reported. Check out the DVD, hear it for yourself....

Now, how about some crow biscuits for you?"

Well, Lynette, I did see that, BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT DR. T ORIGINALLY TOLD PAAVO AT THE BEGINNING OF THE COUNTY PROCESS!!! (you see just like "your side" we/I have a "mole" at the County level).

Dr. T (I'll repeat this since you are a bit slow...) stated to the County that gravity was not appropriate for the hills and sand here in Los Osos. Period.

And we know that NWRI didn't like your favorite location - Tri-W!!

Cal Poly & County biscuits for you and your hubby! (...to hell with everyone else, right??!!)...

Mike said...

Dr.T is not "the authority"...

...only "another authority"...

I know it's beyond your primative mind, but other folks actually have knowledge and are authorities...

We've listend to you rant and rave, but it is the County who will decide who to listen to... They certainly are not listening to you....!!!! You remain a fraud....!!!!!

GetRealOsos said...

Piper,

Billy Dunne is Mike and Mike is Crapkiller, and Crapkiller may be either Richard LeGros or Gordon Hensley. He wrote about your spelling error, funny, he has many spelling errors.

Did you ever get an answer from Lynette --
Where are the County cost estimates for sealed gravity pipes? Where is the tech memo on gravity? Did I miss it?

She harps on Mark to answer SharkInlet, so I'm wondering if she answered that!

Sewertoons said...

Piper, I have attended all of the seminars in the last 6 months but one. I am not talking about hypotheticals, but real, in the ground, alternative systems.

You say, "Sustainability is a tri-metric approach. That means a sustainable project is one in which the environment, society and the economy all win."

Nice rhetoric, but show me one town, just one, with a population of around 14,600 somewhere in North America where all of those things have actually happened. It doesn't even have to be California. Please name just one. Please state the Water Board's requirements, if in California.

While I love all of the references to 50's sci-fi movies as to what will happen here with a gravity sewer, (hilarious!) I think you have been listening to the wrong people who are more than a tad over the top with eco-cultish hyperbole.

You say:
"the company you keep says a lot. Lets be real here. " I take it you are a fan of Gail and Lisa and are voting for Karen?

Sewertoons said...

Crapkiller has identified himself as Jon Arcuni on many occasions on this blog. Just another guess of yours where you are way, way off getreal.

Shark asked first. Still waiting.

Mike said...

getrealosos.... sorry to disappoint you..again... but I am NOT CrapKiller4....

but YOU are so cock sure of your sluething skills, I'm sure you can find me out... I even challenge you to "out" me...

In the meantime, you are exposed to this community as a liar, a fraud, and a rumor monger... Hell, you even make up your own rumors to spread...!!!! You are very sick...you actually believe the lies you spread...

...but keep guessing and lying about your findings...in the meantime, the County is proceeding... and the big pipe will be right across your driveway, TW is going to win the oft delayed trial and the CSD5 will be required to pay back the monies they gave to their cronies....!!!!

Mike said...

BTW... I thought CK4 was an older lady living in atascadero, but with rental and vacant lot properties here...

I miss her, she had a lot more knowledge, truth and moral ethics than all of the dimished 3; howie, getrealosos and osos change...hmmmm, they do sound a lot like the 3 Stooges...

Osos Change said...

Are you really sure you want to be outed, Mike?

If I do that, I'll have you arrested for making threats, lock you up in jail and throw away the key.

For one thing, "Mike" is not your real name.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette,
Why would I answer a question which had it's origin in statement which was removed by Maria?
If her statement wasn't worth keeping, why are you and Steve talking about it.

Maria never explained herself and when questioned ran away. That's Leadership...

This is my final word on that subject.

If you provide the name of the neighborhood in LA that you lived in I may be able to help with the roach issue.

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE, Lynette,
Are you a married couple?

Sewertoons said...

I (and possibly Shark) are now asking that question. You babble on about many topics - mostly cut-n-paste. Don't know why you are having trouble answering this - unless of course you don't have an answer.

No thanks, I don't live there anymore and don't need any.

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette is MIKE your husband?

Mike said...

Have at it osos change...

...just remember, I have copies of EVERYTHING you, getrealosos and howie have written... I've already handed copies to an attorney... you might want to check out Racano's file next though....

I'm not nearly as patient as Shark...

...and Mark, quit guessing, it only makes you look like a snakeoil salesman... You aren't even close...as either...

Watershed Mark said...

MIKE are you Lynette's husband?

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
BTW... I thought CK4 was an older lady living in atascadero, but with rental and vacant lot properties here...

...quit guessing...:0

Mike said...

There is a difference between thinking and guessing... look it up in wikipedia

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...
We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over...
in the meantime, the County is proceeding... and the big pipe will be right across your driveway

Mike said...

Besides acting like a 12 year old... what other tricks do you do...???

I do love such well documented comments such as:
"Yes, it might be nice for the County (and Los Osos) to use REAL experts rather than sole sourcing with firms such as Cleath & Assoc. and Corollo.

Cleath does ALL the studies around these parts, and if you read them, they are bogus. One report actually stated that water ran UP HILL! And this is who the County uses exclusively??? (It's almost like they'll write up any report or study however the County wants them to.)

Then, take Corollo, they've ONLY done gravity systems. That's nice of the County to choose them!"

**********************************
...guess a couple of you are afraid the County will chose only the big pipe gravity, which by the way would appear less costly than digging up everyone's yard and dumping in another septic tank (STEP)... that would probably mean a big pipe across your driveway....

Osos Change said...

Mike,

Unless you're being vilified in some way, an attorney isn't going to look at the posts. But let me assure you that justice will be more swift with you than I. I hate to burst your bubble but I have told the truth.

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
Dr.T is not "the authority"...

...only "another authority"...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Dr.+George+Tchobanoglous&spell=1

Dr. George Tchobanoglous received numerous proclamations and letters of congratulations from California senators, U.S. House of representatives, and former Governor Gray Davis, as well as from President George W. Bush.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=paavo+ogren&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

For all of the Public Works Department's responsibilities, Ogren concluded, "Environmental professionalism is a good business practice for the county that leads to better decisions and more efficient outcomes, saving taxpayers' money.

"'The greening of Public Works' is a nice slogan," he continued, "but it's a component of better management and better business. The contrast was the day when people [in the department] were fighting environmental regulations. It's the transition of the times. We do get it. We understand that environmental concerns are important. It really boils down to common sense."

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...
We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over...
in the meantime, the County is proceeding... and the big pipe will be right across your driveway
Then, take Corollo, they've ONLY done gravity systems. That's nice of the County to choose them!"

Mike said...

Since Mark can't or won't answer, the only assuption is that the STEP system is just another form of a septic system which filters a bit of matter, but not nitrates, directly back into the soil...

Thanks Mark, really enjoy your non-answers...

Jane said...

Sewertoons
It is a new world with new realities. To solve our wastewater problems with old 20th century methods that have now been clearly shown to have fatal flaws is absurd. If you read the responses to the county tech memos you will realize that the EPA website is frequently sited. Even they realize that it is time to look at cleaner alternatives.

The narrow, simple mindedness comes from Paavo, Briggs, and TW

Mike said...

3 years ago, Lisa/Julie/Gail tried that tactic and totally failed... There will never be a Plan that will satisfy the holistic new age "Dreamers".....

So, in lieu of anyone in Los Osos coming up with a realistic Plan and the total financial mismanagement of the CSD, the project was removed from the responsibility of the CSD and given to the County... It is long past time to reinvent the wheel... The time was 8 years ago, but those alternative schemes were just that, schemes... Los Osos needs a sewer, if we were to wait for every alternative to be discussed, and rediscussed, there would never be any consences... So the best alternative is to ignore the parade of fools who all have NO PLAN, and to just let the County engineers do their job and build the sewer... Don't you think that the previous Boards looked at every viable system and finally had to make a choice....??? Lisa and Tacker never could put any kind of Plan on the table... They lied to help Chuck, John and Steve elected and then paid their own personal attorneys instead of hiring an engineering firm... They lied from day one and they are lying today...!!!!

Let's end this insanity of trying to come up with an alternative sewer, it's way to late in the game... The County has the resources and the engineers, let them do their job and let this CSD get back to resolving their bankruptcy....!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

Mike said...
..and what is the the allowable leakage in a STEP system...
Just what are the test criteria for a Step system since we need to understand the comparable systems to eventually vote on...???
How do we know that STEP or some similar system is actually better than gravity based on some RWQCB accepted engineering/scientific test results...???
So far, we have never seen any side by side comparisons...
We do anticipate the County will provide the side by side comparison of costs and benefits before this is all over...
in the meantime, the County is proceeding... and the big pipe will be right across your driveway
Then, take Corollo, they've ONLY done gravity systems. That's nice of the County to choose them!"
just let the County engineers do their job and build the sewer...

Piper said...

Where is the gravity tech memo?
Where are the gravity sealed pipe cost estimates?
Sole sourcing is a kin to communism.
Hey Mikey, nice rendition of what happened three years ago, Keep on smokin'!
I guess you think that global warming is a myth too.
Sustainability, it's a nice concept but not very practical so lets just do things the old way cause it's easy. Is that your motto? Oh you are so helpful! If society listened to people like you we would probably be with out electricity and riding horses. If we listen to you now, we will destroy our earth. Have any kids Mikey? Doesn't seem so. Sounds like your one of those "end of times folks" like Ms. Palin?
Any clue about the carbon footprint for traditional chemical plant or MBR? While we are at it, maybe we should build a desal plant too!

On the flip side,
Thank you to Jane for your sensibility.

Mike said...

piper says: "Sole sourcing is a kin to communism."

That's an interesting thought... Does that apply to sole sourcing lawyers....???

If we were to listen to piper, we would be in an endless search for the newest, latest, and yet to be invented technology...

In the real world, the CSD Directors had explored all that was available, all that was viable for for Los Osos, then made the decision that the community hired them to make... but a few sour apples didn't get their way and ended up throwing away some 8 years of site and technology selection just because they didn't like the thought of a treatment plant anywhere in Los Osos...those folks, and apparently piper is one, are willing to force as many roadblocks as possible in the way of a needed sewer...all in the hope that they could create cost so huge that no one could afford to pay them...

Well piper, you have done your best and a lot of folks may be forced out of their homes directly because you and Lisa created the diversions, distractions and extraordinary expenses just because you don't think we need a sewer... The old Boards knew compromise, you have no concept, the old Boards created a viable project, you threw down your shovels...

Bottom line, the County is going to build a sewer inspite of your attempts to derail this any longer...

Sewertoons said...

That's right jane, throw out technology that has been around for a thousand years to install one that has been around for - what - 25 years?

I'll bet you didn't know that the joining of bell and spigot pipes can shift up to 30ยบ without leaking. Try that with a step pipe.

Piper, it was interesting to hear from Chuck C. that NWRI did not recommend ponds. You might want to talk to him about that. Chuck also reported that either step or gravity would work.

Jane said...

Sewertoons
To imply that you prefer 1000 year old wastewater technology to 25 year old technology is absurd. Personal, home use of computers has only occurred within the last 25 years. You don't seem to have a problem using this new technology. Would you rather we use smoke signals?
If we are not taking and implementing the best technology to protect Earth and conserve our valuable resources, we are operating with ignorance and arrogance.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Jane,

Both collection system techniques you mention have benefits and drawback for a town such as ours. To suggest that newer is necessarily better or that older is necessarily better ignores the point.

E-mail is new. E-mail is great for many purposes. E-mail is not always the best way of communication.

If the "best technology to protect Earth and conserve our valuable resources" isn't STEP, would you be willing to be flexible and have a gravity system? Suppose that it's a "tie" and that both would be just fine from an environmental point of view and long-run cost-wise? Would you (like some) threaten to derail the process with a lawsuit?

What I often find frustrating here is that many people have adopted sewer fundamentalism of one kind or another and they seem to view anyone with a different point of view with suspicion. To ignore all of what Ripley has done or all of what MWH has done simply because you haven't hitched your ego-cart to that horse is just plain silly.

It could be destructive, to boot. To slow down the process of getting a sewer online just because you don't get your favorite collection system will cause increased costs and additional pollution (to the tune of a million gallons of septage per day).

Yes, it's important to get it right ... but we should never allow the best to become the enemy of good.

GetRealOsos said...

Jane,

Shark spouts, "just because you don't get your favorite collection system will cause increased costs and additional pollution (to the tune of a million gallons of septage per day)..."

Do you know exactly what study shows a million gallons of septage per day?

I wonder if he can document this charge!

Just curious.

Sewertoons said...

getreal, just what amount of pollution per day is acceptable to you?

Just curious.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

GetReal,

If you multiply the population of the PZ (at least 10000) by the estimated daily per person household water usage (at least 100) you get a million gallons per day that is being put into septic tanks. As you know, for every gallon that goes in, a gallon leaves in the form of septage.

Osos Change said...

"To suggest that newer is necessarily better or that older is necessarily better ignores the point."

To even say that ignores Jane's point. Why? Because Jane wasn't even making that point to begin with. Wastewater technology has improved significantly over the years. True, that doesn't necessarily mean that this technology is "better" ("better" is a subjective term) than older technology, but one thing is true: inventions that are modern to us will ultimately be obsolete later down the road.

In short, stop talking out of your ass.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

OsosChange,

When Jane wrote "To imply that you prefer 1000 year old wastewater technology to 25 year old technology is absurd. ... Would you rather we use smoke signals?" don't you think she was essentially telling us that newer is better?

That you go on to agree with my main point and then finish up with a really snippy comment is rather odd.

It sounds like you're one of those Sewer Fundamentalists who feels the need to argue with me because I'm haven't been properly evangelized/re-educated. Are you one of those people who will punch someone if he doesn't get STEP?

If, in this case, STEP is better than gravity, please explain how it will save us money in the longrun or explain how it is more environmentally friendly. If it's both, I am sure that the decision will be a no-brainer. That the cost analyses (in the past) and environmental analyses (in the past) don't indicate one system dominates the other would cause me to think that it's not as one-sided as some would have us believe.

Piper said...

Except for weaponry, I don't see how advancements in technology have been anything but helpful.

It is also your side who have been guilty of verbal and PHYSICAl assaults.

In regards to behavior, have you ever seen your candidate at a meeting. Guess that's a no because outside of Sewertoons, non of you participate. Despite what the Tribune says, (they don't attend meetings either), Maria, at times, has little decorum. She jumps up and down in her seat, makes faces and waves her hands. And Marshall, well he just started attending meetings, and at the "debate" he lied! You guys are one heck of a scary bunch indeed.

What is YOUR hang up with gravity?
It is more expensive and far more dangerous.

Bottom line, in the absence of logic and reason, greed is the motivating factor. So how much is MWH paying you to get your pet project back?

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Don't get me wrong ... advancements in sewer technology are great ... but it isn't obvious that STEP is cheaper or better than gravity.

You tell us that gravity is more expensive and far more dangerous. Please explain!

One more thing I find funny here is this ... people who like STEP keep writing that I prefer gravity. I don't actually give a rip. The key here is what is best and what is cheapest.


I would also want to add a few other motivators to your list. If a person isn't using logic and reason to reach conclusions, greed is another explanation, but fear and tying one's sense of self-worth to the outcome are two other motivators. Myself, I'm into the whole logic and reason thing.

So then ... tell us how the long term costs of STEP are lower than the long-term costs of gravity. (Frankly, I'll bet that it is a wash to the level of precision we can predict costs into the future.)

Tell us how STEP is necessarily better than gravity for Los Osos. Certainly reduced solids for the treatment plant (and thus less sludge hauling) is huge ... but other than that, are there any substantial benefits?

Watershed Mark said...

The liquid and solids that remain in the primary treatment portion of the septic tank which are pumped out constitute “septage”, not what comes out of a septic tank as effluent.

BTW, if there is only 1MGD of effluent why do the TAC reports suggest the a 2+MGD facility be built? Is the prohibition Zone going to foot the cost of a facility that others will later be charged to hook up to? Will the Prohibition Zone people receive a refund?

Watershed Mark said...

Piper said...
Where is the gravity tech memo?
Where are the gravity sealed pipe cost estimates?

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Mark,

Thanks for the correction on my terminology. Septage refers to everything in the tank and effluent is the largest component of the septage. Effluent also comprises nearly all of what drains into the leach field. From the point of view of nitrates, this is where we've got a problem. Septic systems do not do any denitrificaiton. Bacteria in the soil will handle this as long as there aren't too many septics per acre.

On the question of the total sewage/septage treatment facility capacity, don't think that there is only 1MGD effluent produced by folks in the PZ ... it is considerably higher. There are more than 10k people in the PZ and we're using more than 100 gpd each. if the treatment plant is also required to handle build out, it will have to be larger even so. Perhaps if you read the TAC report it will refer you to calcs which explain the capacity.

Sewertoons said...

Piper, Maria has NOT jumped up and down in her seat and made faces!! Waving her arms? You must be confusing her with the Taylors! I sit right next to her, so I ought to know. Your attendance at CSD meeting is spotty at best and you don't stay to the end anyway, so where are you getting this information?

Marshall has lived here 30 years, so maybe he hasn't been to meetings that much recently - but the CSD goes back to 1998 you know. He knows more about Los Osos than either you or I.

Funny how "new technology" only applies to step. Gravity's technology has changed over the years too, but the step side won't acknowledge that.

Even with step, the tanks need cleaning out. The Orenco bunch say 10-20 years, but that is not necessarily the Water Board's position. So which is more fuel efficient? 4 trucks a week for Tri-W or a bunch of trucks, idling their motors while they pump, daily. Guess we'll have to wait to find out, although Shark and I did address this once a long time ago on the Trib's old blog. I don't think I saved that equation, but it was interesting from the Gravity point of view.

Jane said...

Shark
I want the best technology to save our valuable resources. Clean air, clean water, and a healthy diverse biological community put my soul at ease. I want our little piece of the biosphere to be the best it can be. My choice is whichever system best meets these requirements.

And if anyone is manipulating the results for financial or political gain, as has happen so often in the past, I will protest loudly. We all share this one Earth, and to sacrifice it for personal gains is no longer acceptable.

My self worth is not attached to one system or another, but it deeply rooted in personal responsibility. This responsibility is for the Earth and ALL of its inhabitants. To stand by and allow others to manipulate the results (garbage in, garbage out) and develop a wastewater system that causes harm is not acceptable. I will accept honest research from honest people. Briggs, Paavo, and TW are not honest.

Sewertoons said...

So jane, how do you feel about Bruce Gibson - he's our supervisor, and with the other Supes will have the final say.

So far, you are stating that you will protest - am I reading you right?

And if gravity holds up against your preferred technology - maybe because it winds up to be cheaper, will you protest?

Will you defend step if it doesn't win, if perhaps it causes more geological disturbance?

You seem to be stating two different viewpoints from the posts I see above.

(I'm not sure how TW decides on a WWTF however.)

Watershed Mark said...

From the point of view of nitrates, this is where we've got a problem.

www.basinwater.com solves the Nitrate problem.

if the treatment plant is also required to handle build out,???
Will the Prohibition Zone people receive a refund?

M said...

sharkinlets formula of water use/septage is skewed. When he assumes each one of those 10,000 use 100 gallons of water each day, does he account for the number of retired senior citizens that would be hard pressed to use 100 gallons of water each day.
Could each child possibly use 100 gallons of water each and every day?
I know my household of two uses about 90 gallons a day.
Sincerely, M

M said...

I've asked before, but nobody responded. If I have a cup of raw sewage in my left hand and a cup of water out of the upper aquafir in my right hand, why is it that we can turn what I have in my left hand into drinking water, but we can't what I have in my right hand?
Sincerely, M

Mike said...

Mark, please tell us why you thought the Reclamator was the only solution and now, you are pushing Basinwater...???

Seems like you salesfolks only migrate to the next largest commission and would sell the proverbial freezer to the eskimo...

I can't wait until you come up with the next best system to solve all our problems... Don't you see how ludicrous you sound... You are actually helping the County's approach. They have a team of engineers who live in SLO and aren't trying to find a system that will provide them the highest commission... Basin may be a good company, but so are a hundred others... In this economy, we can't take a chance with another new and better, just formed company...!!!! Try working with GE or Siemens directly and forget those startup companies who have no track record and may soon fail as this economic recession deepens...

I don't care which system the County finally choses, but it better perform exceedingly well and be as economical as possible both on startup and in the next 40 years of operation... I am not infavor of giving some wonderful bunch of well meaning folks with some esoteric wijit that may or maynot work and may cost us all a hell of a lot more in the long run.... Let's see a proven 10 year track record, both financially and mechanically... Guess the bottom line really is, let the County do their job...if you really want to help, go to work for the County and prove your knowledge....

Jane said...

Sewertoons

I support an open and transparent process. Members of TW believe in backroom deals, and Briggs and Paavo are prostitutes that will sell their soul to the highest bidder.

If gravity truly has a superior system for the long term protection of our water, air, and other natural resources (energy), I’m all for it. But so far it appears that Paavo, Briggs, and TW are manipulating the reports to support gravity. They use their power and influence to try to obstruct any attempts for a fair and transparent process. I want independent verification of Tech Reports.

Gibson is firmly in the Briggs/Paavo/Pandora pocket. He has embarrassed himself many times showing his true colors. Thank goodness there are other supervisors with a conscience.

Tri-W site floated to the top during a backroom meeting in an alcoholic haze. We can’t afford anymore asinine decision in LO.

Sewertoons said...

Well, it seems unless Ripley or Orenco is "doing" the process, you will not be satisfied. Are salesmen your preferred experts?

I think we will all learn a lot when the NWRI report is released.

My question is, should it NOT dis gravity to death and should it FIND flaws with step, Will Dr. T and Company be relegated to the backroom/alcoholic category as well?

Mike said...

Wow "jane"...

You need to tell Gibson, Briggs, Paavo and Pandora exactly what you just said here... I bet Paavo just might be reading this now....

When do you think our LOCSD will have the sewer project back....???

You should go to the next BOS meeting and tell Gibson just what you think...!!!!! God, you make me proud to be from los Osos....!!!!

Watershed Mark said...

sharkinlets formula of water use/septage is skewed...Stevtistics..what are the chances?:)

MIKE, Please cut and paste my words that support your contention that I said/think or believe there is only "one solution"
Basin may be a good company, but so are a hundred others... Name two MIKE. BTW The county is laying off, not hiring.

Mike bleated: let the County do their job
Piper astutely said...
Where is the gravity tech memo?
Where are the gravity sealed pipe cost estimates?

Watershed Mark said...

Lynette is MIKE your husband?

Sewertoons said...

Why does this matter to you?

I see you still haven't answered Shark.

Watershed Mark said...

I'll take that as a YES.
Is he a Plummer?

Sewertoons said...

BasinWater is run by a Mr. Stark who served from 1997 to 2005 as President of Veolia Water North America. The VP & CFO is a Mr. Chisholm served in various executive divisional and corporate-level financial management roles with United States Filter Corporation, which became part of Veolia Water in 1999. The VP of Marketing is Richard Reese, who was Senior Vice President, Marketing within the Services Group of USFilter/Veolia Water.

If any of you saw FLOW - the movie about water privatization, you know the worlds water, especially in 3rd world countries is being bought up at an alarming rate. The poor are barely able to buy back their water.

From Wikipedia:
"In the case of water privatization in England, tariffs increased by 46% in real terms during the first nine years and operating profits have more than doubled (+142%) in eight years." AND
"…it has been also argued that privatisation has led to both a decline in quality and supply with much of the infrastructure being left to decay."

The three big players in water privatization are Suez, Veolia and RWE.

Interesting, where the three main players in BasinWater have come from. Thanks mark for suggesting a group that looks to give Montgomery Watson Harza a run for its money.

Watershed Mark said...

Compare the deficits of government to the profits you mentioned.

Please turn to Basin Water's Nitrate Reduction Technology page to learn more about:
Basin Water Announces Patent for High-Efficiency Nitrate Removal System;
Cutting-Edge Technology Drives Costs Down for Nitrate Treatment

RANCHO CUCAMONGA, Calif., June 10, 2005 -- Basin Water Inc. announced today that it has received a US patent for its high efficiency Ion Exchange System for removing nitrate from water. The patent, No. 6,878,286, was issued to Peter L. Jensen, Gerald A. Guter and Dan Ziol of Basin Water. In broad terms, the patent covers the use of a multiple bed ion exchange system controlled by a computer specifically for the removal of nitrate from water. “This is one of the most important advances in the use of ion exchange technology for nitrate removal since the introduction of nitrate selective resins. Significantly, the inventor of nitrate selective resins, Dr. Gerald Guter, was also one of the co-inventors of this patent” stated Basin Water President, Peter Jensen.

Nitrate contamination of water is a worldwide problem caused by the use of fertilizers for agriculture and septic systems in the absence of centralized wastewater treatment. Nitrate is an acute toxin, and both the US Environmental Protection Agency (USEPA) and the World Health Organization (WHO) have set stringent limits on nitrate in drinking water.

http://www.basinwater.com/news/050610.php4

The technology is relatively new to the commercial market. It wasn't around in 1983 so I guess it cannot be used in LO/BP until it has a good track record.

It is normal for corporations to make a profit, unlike governments...

Sewertoons said...

And who controls corporations profits?

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

So M,

What is the average daily household water usage per person in Los Osos?

Back when the Ripley crew came thru, they had a figure on gallons per person per day that they used for determining the size of system we would need. What was that figure? I think that the were optimistically hoping for about 60 gallons per person per day. Certainly in the US, the average flow is considerably above 100 gallons per person per day ... probably closer to 200.


But let us not get sidetracked. The main reason we are discussing this is that I said that currently there is about a million gallons per day that we are putting into our leach fields. The exact number doesn't matter as much as the idea that every day we delay means a whole bunch of additional nitrates and other stuff that makes it into the aquifer. Even if we take the Ripley numbers instead of something closer to the national average, the recall (by those who care so much about the environment) has delayed the project by at least 3 years and thus we've got at least a million cubic feet of stuff that would have been processed by a wastewater treatment plant which is now put directly into the ground.

However you slice it, delay means additional pollution. Additional delay to get a better system might be worth it, but let's not kid ourselves that there is no impact of delay.

Jane said...

Shark
25 years and still no septic management system……… How much damage to our environment has been caused by this lack of implementation of 83-12? (Especially by those homes quickly thrown together to meet 83-13 deadline, many with septic systems sitting within the groundwater.) The most expedient way to slow the deterioration of the water would be to require inspections and repair of septic tanks. Starting with those that have not been pumped in 8 or so years, a quick inspection of the baffle wall and groundwater level could determine whether a further inspection and repair were required.

Sewertoons
“The times they are a’changing” Based on current changes in government at the local and federal level, I can safely say that it is no longer okay to govern with the arrogant, good-old-boys method. You are connected to a dying breed. New leaders place the people and the environment above self-interests.

Also, when did I say I wanted a review by Riply or Orenco? Your experts have obviously sold out to the corporations. I would prefer a truly independent review. (CCRWQCB is not independent because they are supported by fines, and would like nothing more than to have us build a system that would fatten their coffers.)

Watershed Mark said...

Toons wrote: And who controls corporations profits?

The Marketplace, supply and demand.

LO/BP have been coerced into thinking it should paying a government to take its water when it should pay for treatment to remove nitrates at the wellhead.

Retest the test wells. Get current data. Use technology that has come on line. Save money while a corporation makes a profit. It is that simple.

More Tea?

Watershed Mark said...

Sewers leak Steve. Your kids will hate you for that when they understand that better technology that cost less was available and you failed to use it.

Sewertoons said...

jane, which "experts" then would you trust to do the review?

mark says in answer to "who controls corporations profits?"---The Marketplace, supply and demand.

Well, we can all see how well that has worked lately.

jane says
"The most expedient way to slow the deterioration of the water would be to require inspections and repair of septic tanks. Starting with those that have not been pumped in 8 or so years, a quick inspection of the baffle wall and groundwater level could determine whether a further inspection and repair were required."

And just how many years would that take to be organized and implemented - and oh, yeah -- who pays to figure out how to do this? And THEN we get to pay for a sewer, too? Do you really think that this will fix the problem - or are you in the "magic sand" group, too? Have you posed this idea to the Water Board?

Piper said...

Sounds like Sewrtoons is more interested in arguing about everything rather than looking for solutions or listening to others. Are these the same skills we can look forward to Maria using as she "reaches across the isle"?

Did you hear public comment yesturday morning? Briggs wants the County to bring our waters into Chumash era condition. Needless to say, this exceeds not only Federal but also State standards. A State Water Board top official has stated that the Regional Boards are out of control.

Why wasn't 83-13 ever enforced?

Why did the County allow over 1000 new homes to be built when they knew it was wrong and would make our problems worse?

What bone head is telling Sacramento that LO has crap running down our streets when Morro Bay, the CMC and Pismo are spilling uncounted amounts of raw sewage all over our water ways?

Remember the poo spilling down the streets in Paso, this past spring, due to their gravity collection system? Go to You Tube and you can watch Turlock's gravity collection system blow. Apparently it is a regular event. Yeah, that's what I want to see my money purchasing.

Speaking of purchasing, how in the world was I able to buy my home with a clean title and then get a notice, 10 months later, that I have an illegal septic and am subject to 40 million in fines?

Previously, I lived in a coastal town w/ septics AND nitrate issues and they put in a conventional gravity system (it took twice as long and cost twice as much as estimated). You could not get around, mail was distrupted and children got hurt in accidents because of all of the debris and equiptment around town. All this and the nitrate situation still did not improve. Turned out that farms and livestock really did contribute greatly to the pollution. STEP and cluster treatment are becoming much more popular in that part of the country, but it is still a struggle because of corrupution and greed, just like here.

Sewertoons said...

Piper, where is there a retrofit on a town of this size to step. In America I mean.

Watershed Mark said...

Sewertoons said...
mark says in answer to "who controls corporations profits?"---The Marketplace, supply and demand.
Well, we can all see how well that has worked lately.

When the government gets involved in private business it disrupts the natural balance “look below”
: The following is a condensation of a series from the Investor's Business Daily explaining "What Caused the Loan Crisis":
1977: Pres. Jimmy Carter signs into Law the Community Reinvestment Act the foundation and cornerstone for the impending disaster.. The law pressured financial institutions to extend home loans to those who would otherwise not qualify.
The publicized premise: Home ownership would improve poor and crime-ridden communities and neighborhoods in terms of crime, investment, jobs, etc.
The Results: Statistics bear out that it did not help.
How did the government get so deeply involved in the housing market?
Answer: Bill Clinton wanted it that way.
1992: Republican representative Jim Leach (IO) warned of the danger that Fannie and Freddie were changing from being agencies of the public at large to money machines for the principals and the stock-holding few.
1993: Clinton extensively rewrote Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's rules turning the quasi-private mortgage-funding firms into semi-nationalized monopolies dispensing cash and loans to large Democratic voting blocks and handing favors, jobs and contributions to political allies. This potent mix led inevitably to corruption and now the collapse of Freddie and Fannie.

1994: Despite warnings, Clinton unveiled his National Home-Ownership Strategy, which broadened the CRA in ways congress never intended.
1995: Congress, about to change from a Democrat majority to Republican. Clinton orders Robert Rubin's Treasury Dept to rewrite the rules. Robt. Rubin's Treasury reworked rules, forcing banks to satisfy quotas for sub-prime and minority loans to get a satisfactory CRA rating. The rating was key to expansion or mergers for banks. Loans began to be made on the basis of race and little else.
1997 - 1999: Clinton , bypassing Republicans in Congress, enlisted Andrew Cuomo, then Secretary of Housing and Urban Dev elopement, allowing Freddie and Fannie to get into the sub-prime market in a BIG way. Led by Rep. Barney Frank and Sen. Chris Dodd, congress doubled down on the risk by easing capital limits and allowing them to hold just 2.5% of capital to back their investments vs. 10% for banks. Since they could borrow at lower rates than banks their enterprises boomed.
With incentives in place, banks poured billions in loans into poor communities, often "no doc", "no income", requiring no money down and no verification of income. Worse still was the cronyism: Fannie and Freddie became home to out-of work-politicians, mostly Clinton Democrats. 384 politicians got big campaign donations from Fannie and Freddie. Over $200 million had been spent on lobbying and political activities. During the 1990's Fannie and Freddie enjoyed a subsidy of as musch as $182 Billion, most of it going to principals and shareholders, not poor borrowers as claimed.
Did it work? Minorities made up 49% of the 12.5 million new homeowners but many of those loans have gone bad and the minority homeownership rates are shrinking fast.
1999: New Treasury Secretary, Lawrence Summers, became alarmed at Fannie and Freddie's excesses. Congress held hearings the ensuing year but nothing was done because Fannie and Freddie had donated millions to key congressmen and radical groups, ensuring no meaningful changes would take place. "We manage our political riskwith the same intensity that we manage our credit and interest rate risks," Fannie CEO Franklin Raines, a former Clinton official and current Barack Obama advisor, bragged to investors in 1999.
2000: Secretary Summers sent Undersecretary Gary Gensler to Congress seeking an end to the "special status". Democrats raised a ruckus as did Fannie and Freddie, headed by politically connected CEO's who knew how to reward and punish. "We think that the statements evidence a contempt for the nation's housing and mortgage markets" Freddie spokesperson Sharon McHale said. It was the last chance during the Clinton era for reform.
2001: Republicans try repeatedly to bring fiscal sanity to Fannie and Freddie but Democrats blocked any attempt at reform; especially Rep. Barney Frank and Sen.Chris Dodd who now run key banking committees and were huge beneficiaries of campaign contributions from the mortgage giants.
2003: Bush proposes what the NY Times called "the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago". Even after discovering a scheme by Fannie and Freddie to overstate earnings by $10.6 billion to boost their bonuses, the Democrats killed reform.

2005: Then Fed chairman Alan Greenspan warns Congress: "We are placing the total financial system at substantial risk". Sen. McCain, with two others, sponsored a Fannie/Freddie reform bill and said, "If congress does not act, American taxpayers will continue to be exposed to the enormous risk that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac pose to the housing market, the overall financial system and the economy as a whole". Sen. Harry Reid accused the GOP ;of trying to "cripple the ability of Fannie and Freddie to carry out their mission of expanding homeownership" The bill went nowhere.
2007: By now Fannie and Freddie own or guarantee over HALF of the $12 trillion US mortgage market. The mortgage giants, whose executive suites were top-heavy with former Democratic officials, had been working with Wall St. to repackage the bad loans and sell them to investors. As the housing market fell in '07, subprime mortgage portfolios suffered major losses. The crisis was on, though it was 15 years in the making.
2008: McCain has repeatedly called for reforming the behemoths, Bush urged reform 17 times. Still the media have repeated Democrats' talking points about this being a "Republican" disaster. A few Republicans are complicit but Fannie and Freddie were created by Democrats, regulated by Democrats, largely run by Democrats and protected by Democrats. That's why taxpayers are now being asked for $700 billion!!

If you doubt any of this, just click (cut and paste) the links below and listen to your lawmakers' own words. They are condemning!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68D9XrqyrWo&feature=related#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgqfM5C8lY#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9juJr8CSY4&feature=related#


Postscript: ACORN is one of the principal beneficiaries of Fannie/ Freddie's slush funds. They are currently under indictment or investigation in many states. Barack Obama served as their legal counsel, defending their activities for several years and his campaign has donated more the $800K to ACORN.

The discovery of penicillin has been attributed to Scottish scientist Alexander Fleming in 1928 and the development of penicillin for use as a medicine is attributed to the Australian Nobel Laureate Howard Walter Florey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin

If it wasn't from the America it really isn't any good.
Is that what you are saying Toons?

Stepping up is what made America great, not sewers, toons.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Umm ... Mark,

I would suggest you keep your comments to Los Osos sewer stuff because on these national matters it appears that you are believing only one side of the discussion (an extremely partisan one at that) and you are ignoring the other side's arguments and the evidence that shows everyone dropped the ball.

Actually, you may very well be doing the same thing with your Los Osos comments. Nevermind.

Watershed Mark said...

Show me the evidence for the otherside of the equation, if you can..
I'm sure Ann won't mind too much as this thread is about to fall off the page.

Shark Inlet (a.k.a. Stiv Neener) said...

Well ... I might have already posted some links somewhere here but the best reporting on the whole financial crisis can be found at WSJ.com, NYTimes.com and thisamericanlife.org.

In summary, while the Democrats want to blame Republicans for the entire mess ... that dog don't hunt ... and the Republicans wanna blame Democrats for the whole thing (as you did above), that dog don't hunt neither.

Let's consider two issues in more depth. Fannie and Freddie and the lack of regulation of the CDS market.

Fannie and Freddie are not the cause of the subprime problem. In fact, it is deregulation of the mortgage industry that allowed other companies to develop and promote subprime loans. The majority of subprime loans were with other firms and both Fannie and Freddie followed the trend because both Republican and Democrats caved into lobbying. Even if Fannie and Freddie had been prevented from making subprime loans (as you suggest Republicans wanted to do), the crisis would have happened anyways.

CDS ... Phil Gram, along with 96 other senators passed a bill in 1998 (I think that was the year) and Clinton signed it into law. The multi-hundred page rider that prevented any regulation (at all) of the CDS market was added to a multi-thousand page budget bill in the last day before the Christmas holiday ... the last day a budget could be considered without keeping Congress from leaving town.

The CDS market is what nets all these large financial players into a web of trust but the lack of regulation in that market is what has caused that whole web of trust to fail. Simply, if I have zero idea of the real obligations of, say, ABC Bank to DEF Corp, I cannot reasonably evaluate how risky an investment in ABC Bank is. However, buoyed by the false sense of security by "rising home values" no one noticed the flaw in the system ... that if mortgage backed securities were to fail, the whole house of cards would collapse.

Who is to blame? Not just Democrats as you suggest ... Congress, the White House, Treasury, the Fed and the SEC folks all share the blame here.

Let's make this clear. Gram, McCain and Bush are just as much to blame as any Democrat you list above as being at fault.

GetRealOsos said...

Mike,

Well, I guess you're proof that liars lie.

You said, "the project was removed from the responsibility of the CSD and given to the County..."

WHAT? Given to the County???

Pandora and your crew told the County to take it at the time of the recall. Your statement is an out right lie. The County took it, Blakeslee helped them. The legislation was based on a lie that all 4,500 septics were polluting. There is NO PROOF of that. Everything has been a lie. The PZ is a lie.

You are a big part of the scandal. (it's not over yet either)

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons:

Funny how you want Mark to answer, yet neither you or Shark will answer this:

Piper astutely said...
Where is the gravity tech memo?
Where are the gravity sealed pipe cost estimates?

Why won't you answer?

Mike said...

No it's not over yet... You still are a fraud and a liar spreading your brand of hate and rumor... I'm not afraid of you tryng to "out" me... I still have some research coming on one of your several lies that I'll be sharing once I'm ready...

Sewertoons said...

We asked first.

Still waiting mark.

Piper, try asking the County - they put out the Tech memos.

Sewertoons said...

getreal,
Just what are those 4,500 septics doing? Do you think that there are drug and body care product residues in the upper aquifer from cows? Or the decay of an ancient forest? (Did trees shampoo back then?) Please explain.

GetRealOsos said...

Sewertoons:

And what system doesn't pollute?

Pismo, Morro Bay?

I guess it depends on how much. I know you don't like the sand theory but it does work well. The design and system you want has the pathogen issue as well as other health and environmental problems.

You talk about LA, but how do you know what lines are broken or not there at all (like Morro Bay) - The big gravity system will leave us without many trees. How do you feel about that?

Why would you want raw sewerage? Why would you have wanted the Tri-W which pumped to the bay? And spills into the bay? And the fines for that?

It makes no sense whatsoever, and that's why I have to believe you are promoting for the County, Cal Poly and MWH.

How much are you guys getting paid?

GetRealOsos said...

Mike shouts, "You still are a fraud and a liar spreading your brand of hate and rumor... I'm not afraid of you tryng to "out" me... I still have some research coming on one of your several lies that I'll be sharing once I'm ready..."

Well, Mike, I can hardly wait for that.

And, I do not hate. I feel sorry for Los Osos and what you've brought and will bring to the place. I am sad that so many bought all the lies (and fraud) and that in these times especially how hard it will be for so many.

Why wouldn't the County wait for just a little while and see what Obama will do with infrastructure. He never spoke of (over) taxing to put in the infrastructure -- it is to put people back to work. The state and federal (and the County for that matter) should be helping with the bill.

The County owes Los Osos. It's the state's groundwater and federal bay.

It's a scandal, plain and simple. Laws were broken, money was exchanged for favors.

The pendulum will swing the other way soon.

Mark said...

Here are two STEP/STAG Systems in the USA:
Camas, Washington Designed for 30,000 having 3,500 currently hooked up.
Port Charlotte, Florida Designed for 40,000 having 6,500 hooked up.

This is a "sealed" pipe system. It does not leak(Exfiltrate or Infiltrate0 on the way to the treatment site like gravity does.

Where is the Gravity Tech Memo that discribes this?
The difference in pump efficiency is %65 S/S and %45 for the Gravity Pumps.
Where is the Gravity Tech Memo that discusses this?

It is interestng that the county's consulting engineer has not released a gravity tech memo, yet.

I wonder how that will stack up in the EIR?

Mark said...

You trust this:WSJ.com, NYTimes.com and thisamericanlife.org.
Over your lawmakers' own words? They are condemning!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68D9XrqyrWo&feature=related#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIgqfM5C8lY#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9juJr8CSY4&feature=related#

Sewertoons said...

Thank you for providing this information mark:

Camas, Washington Designed for 30,000 having 3,500 currently hooked up.
Port Charlotte, Florida Designed for 40,000 having 6,500 hooked up.

We are designed for approximately 18,500 people, with approximately 14,600 current residents - with about 4,700 current hook-ups.

How much of Camas was retrofit and how much of Port Charlotte was retrofit?

Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Port Charlotte:

Port Charlotte has experienced a tremendous boom in land values between 2003 and 2005. About 800 acres (3.2 km2) of old platted lots in a portion of central Port Charlotte have been taken by the county via eminent domain and will be developed into a big mixed-use development by Kitson and Partners, who was also awarded the contract with the State of Florida and Charlotte County to develop the Babcock Ranch Project.

Mark said...

If you are interested, as you you should be, why not give them a call?

You don't seem to want to believe anything anyone (except the county's consulting engineer) has to say about anything other than leaky gravity sewerage.

Where is the Tech Memo on Gravity?
They are being paid to study solutions, yet no gravity memo.

I would think any honest person
would be interested in seeing a Tech Memo about Gravity.
If it is as good as you think it is, it should have been the first one presented.

Sewertoons said...

Here is some info off the Camas, Washington website regarding step/stef(?):

What do I do if the STEP/STEF alarm goes off?

Call the Operations Center during the hours of 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Mon.- Fri. at 360-817-1567. After hours, weekends or holidays call Sonitrol at 360-696-0777.

Please call immediately after silencing the alarm to prevent sewage back up at the residence.

Alarms going off during the hours of 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Mon.-
Fri. call the Operations Center or City Hall Phone:
360-817-1567 or
360-817-1563
360-817-1560 (City Hall)

Gosh, you'd better keep ALL of those numbers handy!!

It pamphlet didn't address what your neighbors should do if you are not home and your alarm goes off!

Sewertoons said...

In 2000, the population of Camas was listed at 12,534.

Tanks are to be pumped every 7 to 10 years. At this time, they have 3,500 hook-ups, according to mark. Los Osos is similar in size, (but if step/steg is chosen, we would have 4,600+ tanks).

The STEP/STEF Tank Pumping requirements city wide in Camus:
"Work is continuing on pumping of STEP and STEF tanks in various subdivisions throughout Camas. Pumping usually takes place every other week over the entire year."

On a 7-year pump schedule, approximately 500 tanks need pumping per year. Assume two weeks down time, two weeks working, approximately 24 pumping opportunities per year at approximately 21 pumps allowed per week.

My question, seeing how tanks are pumped here, is about air quality. Trucks idle while pumping occurs. How much diesel exhaust goes into the air in Camus, and how much would go into the air here?

(Never mind the huge amounts of methane off-gassing from the septic tanks.)

How does this support "green objectives" in the area of global warming?

Mark said...

Ten years with no pumping! I know folks who have not pumped in more than 30 years.

Too bad there is no gravity tech memo to tell us about the hydrogen sulfide gas production.

All that diesel equipment moving sand for years in and out of a deep trench up to 20+ feet deep.

I can hardly wait to read the EIR.

Mark said...

Lynette,
You ought to have a look at the slide show located @ http://www.rockofthecoast.com/ , you might find yourself in rotation one day forever..